The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

david75 · 24-03-2018 10:50PM

Conspectus wrote: »

Mod-robarmstrong do not post in this thread again. Reason-Personal abuse and calling people trolls in thread.

You need to read the entire thread and the hurtful bullish!t being posted by those people to be fair.

charlietheminxx · 24-03-2018 10:57PM

I’ve been reading along the thread but not participating. All I can say is that I’m so sorry to all those who have been directly affected by the 8th and I truly hope the poll is indicative of the referendum result so that more do not have to suffer.

It’s shocking seeing some of the propaganda being passed off as facts here. Fair play to everyone who has managed a well reasoned debate so far.

Edward M · 24-03-2018 11:00PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Me grow up? You wandered into the thread with your ridiculous figures and claims. Go add 250k to the figure from the stats you've posted and come back and tell me that one in five still ends in abortion

I posted the figures, if you agree that the figures excluding miscarriage are true then the miscarriages don't count really.
Miscarriages happen, I know that from personal experience too within my own family, and my sister had a stillborn baby a few years ago, my nephew and his girlfriend had a stillbirth last September also. and I sympathise with anyone in any of these events.
As the miscarriage rate is happening regardless of whether there is abortion or not, the figures posted would relate to pregnancies that may have been viable, there is a list of exceptional circumstances for the abortions in the link also and percentages of these circumstances listed also.
Tantrums don't change these statistics.

bertieinexile · 24-03-2018 11:24PM

I'd also like to ask for robarmstrong to keep posting here.

While miscarriage may not be directly related to the issues covered by the 8th amendment the accompanying discussion that we are having, centering around birth and the fetus, is obviously hugely emotional for anyone who has been through the trauma of multiple miscarriages. There are many people in the same boat as rob.

I can see now that rob's attempt to extend the calculation of the abortion rate to include miscarriages is his way of incorporating his experience in to the discussion.

My apologies for the smart alec remark about needing to be loved, rob. I'm sure you are.

Annasopra · 24-03-2018 11:57PM

Mr.H wrote: »

I think the phrase abortion on demand is skewing things.

I've used the phrase myself so I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I just think pro choice people think its a phrase to make it sound more sinister. The phrase on demand is more about The fact it is being suggested that it will be unrestricted access to abortion. As in you won't need a medical reason to have one. That is what is meant by "on demand". Doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just a wording that is being argued to stop the actual debate.

Yes

On request is a better term.

erica74 · 25-03-2018 08:24AM

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/24/ann-enright-on-irelands-abortion-referendum

Article on The Guardian website today.
Some snippets from the article.

In 2016, there were 63,897 live births in Ireland. The medical estimate, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, is that up to a quarter of pregnancies end in miscarriage, which means that around 20,000 conceptions could have failed in Ireland last year due to natural causes.

Conservative figures from the charity Rape Crisis reveal that 3,265 Irish women went to Britain to procure abortions in 2016. This was down more than 50% from a high of 6,673 in 2001. The biggest shift happened among women in their 20s (those born after the referendum of 1983), with numbers declining more than 60%, from 4,089 to 1,563. Figures may be disputed in this fiercely debated topic, but there is no doubting a significant reduction over the same years in which the general population rose by nearly 25%. A more open and secular society has not resulted in more abortion, but less.

The pro-life view is taken more from theology than biology. Its supporters in Ireland did not foresee, or did not care about, the medical consequences of their unnatural view – the decisions gone wrong, the danger to the life of the impregnated woman, such as the case of Savita Halappanavar who died of septic shock in a Galway hospital, when a miscarriage could not be treated until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

They did not care about the psychological consequences, and the cruelty of that indifference was hard, as a society, to live with.

In March 2014, a refugee Ms Y arrived in Ireland and discovered that she was pregnant as the result of multiple rapes in her country of origin. She had no passport or papers and was turned back at a British port, when she tried to travel there for a termination. Back in Ireland and suicidal, she was told she could be detained under mental health legislation, and she agreed to stay in a maternity hospital instead. There, she went on hunger strike, until delivered by caesarean at 30 weeks. In the years since 1983 we have learned that there is no answer to the question: “How much suffering is too much suffering?” The question is irrelevant because the psychology of the mother is irrelevant, as are social or practical concerns.

Many children are conceived by accident, or in a state of doubt, and their mothers bring them – half in dread, half in hope – into the world. Other babies are born after long months of their mother’s anguish and incomprehension that her body should be so used – and after her body, her life.

What right does another human being have to be inside your body for the best part of a year, to make their way out of your private parts in a bloody, difficult and painful way, and then turn to you for nourishment, not to mention love – perhaps for the rest of your life?

The hidden fact in the eighth amendment is that the term “unborn” does not mean “human being” as the mother is a human being – if it did then the mother’s rights might also be asserted. The “unborn” here is code for “biology”, “happenstance” or “life itself”.

If we, in Ireland, can repeal the eighth amendment, that shift will echo around the world. It will be heard in El Salvador, where women have been imprisoned for the natural loss of their babies, it will be heard in those Australian states where abortion is both available and illegal at the same time, it will be heard in Poland where 30,000 people marched against the further restriction of abortion laws, and won. It will be heard in the US, where state by state the rights conferred by Roe v Wade are being whittled away to the especial detriment of poor women; women who own little or nothing, not even the body in which they walk around.

What do you think of the author's words and thoughts on the topic?
Elsewhere in the article she suggested changing the word "pregnant" to "impregnated". It sounds more accurate in terms of this topic but overall, I can't imagine women who actually want to be pregnant going around saying "I'm impregnated" with joy and delight and when announcing the news! However, as we all know, every pregnancy is wholly different so in terms of "I've been impregnated and cannot have a baby" it sounds right to me.

***if you're going to continue to just keep banging on about murdering babies and other hysterical nonsense without stringing a coherent sentence together, you will be added to my ignore list, you'll have plenty of company there;)

pleas advice · 25-03-2018 08:30AM

Originally Posted by :
The pro-life view is taken more from theology than biology. Its supporters in Ireland did not foresee, or did not care about, the medical consequences of their unnatural view

Hardly unbiased, is it?

erica74 · 25-03-2018 08:39AM

pleas advice wrote: »

Originally Posted by :
The pro-life view is taken more from theology than biology. Its supporters in Ireland did not foresee, or did not care about, the medical consequences of their unnatural view

Hardly unbiased, is it?

What do you mean?

amdublin · 25-03-2018 08:45AM

I'm in the middle arse of nowhere for the weekend and it's got me thinking of someone who finds themselves pregnant and doesnt want to be.
The circumstances of why they don't want to be pregnant really don't concern me but for the sake of the prolifers who may be reading it could be anything from:
The woman who has already got children/completed her family
The woman who has been raped
The woman whose contraceptive failed
The woman whose baby has been diagnosed with a fatal foetal abnormality
The woman who didn't use a barrier method of contraceptive
The woman who cannot afford to have a baby from a money perspective
The woman who cannot afford to have a baby from a health perspective

I could go on.

They are all equal in my eyes. what is it to me how someone got pregnant, Or why they cannot continue the pregnancy.

I am thinking of all that stress and extra inconvenience Irish women have to go through to access abortion. Even more so if you live rural. To get back to Dublin today I need to take 2 buses. One hour one to get to a major town and then a 2.15 hour bus to Dublin. That's even before I could get on a flight if I was going to the UK to get a flight.

Why do we put our women through this. I think in some ways the pro life and the pro choice need to unite. Wouldn't it be great if all the "support" the prolifers gave didn't focus with an end game of "save the baby", "don't have an abortion". But instead there was a huge amount of support for someone to openly and honestly consider the options.
For someone to be able to think "ok I'm in an awful stress and panic here but rather than having to get flights booked to the UK and get this abortion process going, I know I have the time and space to attend my healthcare provider and discuss all the options knowing that I have the time to access the abortion pill here in my own village if that is the best option for me".

I've said it before, I think when you remove the travel element the Irish abortion rate will go down. Once you've booked those flights it sets things in motion/sets things in stone, very hard to change your mind knowing you only have this "one shot" And have spent so much money. Give our women the time and space to consider abortion or not in our country.

Repeal the 8th.

pleas advice · 25-03-2018 08:47AM

I mean the first couple of quoted paragraphs were grand, stated facts objectively, in an unbiased manner. And then the bias started to come through.

Edit.thought I was going to read an unbiased article, I'd like to read an unbiased article, facts, figures, comparisons ...

erica74 · 25-03-2018 08:49AM

pleas advice wrote: »

I mean the first couple of quoted paragraphs were grand, stated facts objectively, in an unbiased manner. And then the bias started to come through.

And?

Obviously the author is prochoice so she is obviously going to put forward her thoughts and opinion from a prochoice perspective.

Is that all you have to say?

amdublin · 25-03-2018 08:56AM

pleas advice wrote: »

I mean the first couple of quoted paragraphs were grand, stated facts objectively, in an unbiased manner. And then the bias started to come through.

I'm completely biased. That was the whole point of my post.

I disagree with the hypocrisy of allowing abortion, but only in another country.

I hate the way prolifers focus on "save the babies" instead of looking at the bigger picture and really understanding the woman.

I think we can do better as a country.

I trust each individual woman to come to the conclusion what to do rather than some loon of "counsellor" showing horrific pictures and telling them false scary facts about abortion.

I think it's wrong wrong wrong.

Abortion is a personal and private matter for a woman and her doctor. If you don't want one don't have one.

Now go away and stop interfering in my uterus.

amdublin · 25-03-2018 09:00AM

Ps. Based on your last two posts pleasadvice im getting a feel for your new debating method
"Ah the bias, sad face, sighhhhh"

freshpopcorn · 25-03-2018 09:03AM

Does anybody know the result of the REDC poll?

Thanks in advance!

erica74 · 25-03-2018 09:12AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Does anybody know the result of the REDC poll?

Thanks in advance!

Is this what you're after?

On the appeal of the 8th Amendment 60% support Repeal, with 20% not supporting repeal, while 20% remain undecided. With undecided voters removed this means suggest a 75/25 ratio of Repeal to Retain voters in the population as whole.

When this is taken to the next step however, and voters are asked how they would vote in terms of potentially replacing the 8th Amendment with legislation to allow abortion on demand in the first 12 weeks, 51% support, 27% do not support and 22% remain undecided. Again, removing the undecided voters would suggest 66/34 ratio in favour of allowing abortion on demand up to 12 weeks. This reduced level of support is due to the fact that 1 in 5 of those who agree we need to repeal the 8th Amendment, do NOT agree to abortion on demand.

From https://www.redcresearch.ie/beware-disconnected-undecided-voter/

freshpopcorn · 25-03-2018 09:14AM

I think there's a newer one there than that but I'm unsure!
It's in Today's Sunday Business Post.

Achasanai · 25-03-2018 09:19AM

erica74 wrote: »

And?

Obviously the author is prochoice so she is obviously going to put forward her thoughts and opinion from a prochoice perspective.

Is that all you have to say?

I think Pleas Advise is having trouble with the idea of an 'opinion piece'.

erica74 · 25-03-2018 09:19AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I think there's a newer one there than that but I'm unsure!
It's in Today's Sunday Business Post.

Oh apologies, I didn't realise there was going to be another one yet.
I'm not subscribed so can't read the article but the subheading is

Support for repeal down by four points as No campaign up by six; Yes camp maintains strong lead when ‘don’t knows’ excluded

freshpopcorn · 25-03-2018 09:20AM

I think these are the results!

Today’s poll found that there has been a ten point swing away from repeal since January. The findings show that 56% of respondents are in favour of repeal, 26% are opposed, 16% don’t know and 2% refused to answer the question. On the issue of support for abortion up to twelve weeks, the poll found that 52% are in favour, 33% are opposed, 13% don’t know and 2% refused to give a preference.

erica74 · 25-03-2018 09:23AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I think these are the results!

Today’s poll found that there has been a ten point swing away from repeal since January. The findings show that 56% of respondents are in favour of repeal, 26% are opposed, 16% don’t know and 2% refused to answer the question. On the issue of support for abortion up to twelve weeks, the poll found that 52% are in favour, 33% are opposed, 13% don’t know and 2% refused to give a preference.

Ta!
Still looks good for Repeal at this stage.

pleas advice · 25-03-2018 09:29AM

Achasanai wrote: »

I think Pleas Advise is having trouble with the idea of an 'opinion piece'.

No problem at all...

Article on The Guardian website today.
Some snippets from the article.

erica74 · 25-03-2018 09:33AM

pleas advice wrote: »

No problem at all...

Article on The Guardian website today.
Some snippets from the article.

You do have a problem with it though. Your only response to the article has been about it not being unbiased. 3 posts about how it's not unbiased.

Are you at all interested in having a conversation about the content of the article, the points raised, the topic at hand?
The author clearly has prochoice views and you clearly have antichoice views, what do you think of what she said? If you think her opinion is biased, to level out the discussion, what response do you have to the points she made?

Edward M · 25-03-2018 10:42AM

erica74 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/24/ann-enright-on-irelands-abortion-referendum

Article on The Guardian website today.
Some snippets from the article.

What do you think of the author's words and thoughts on the topic?
Elsewhere in the article she suggested changing the word "pregnant" to "impregnated". It sounds more accurate in terms of this topic but overall, I can't imagine women who actually want to be pregnant going around saying "I'm impregnated" with joy and delight and when announcing the news! However, as we all know, every pregnancy is wholly different so in terms of "I've been impregnated and cannot have a baby" it sounds right to me.

***if you're going to continue to just keep banging on about murdering babies and other hysterical nonsense without stringing a coherent sentence together, you will be added to my ignore list, you'll have plenty of company there;)

"What right does another human being have to be inside your body for the best part of a year, to make their way out of your private parts in a bloody, difficult and painful way, and then turn to you for nourishment, not to mention love – perhaps for the rest of your life?"

This element seems a bit severe.
Its probably the main sticking point as regards repeal as it make the point that will be used by prolife to try to bring about a no vote.
It doesent show the compassionate side of that need for repeal.
I can see how prochoice would love the article, but there is no compassion in that paragraph.
Personally, in our current debate I would stick to the more compassionate need for repeal.
That can follow after repeal, but if opinion tightens I wouldn't be trotting out statements like that to try to convince anyone who was having doubts over the abortion issue as part of their decision of why to vote yes.

erica74 · 25-03-2018 10:57AM

Edward M wrote: »

"What right does another human being have to be inside your body for the best part of a year, to make their way out of your private parts in a bloody, difficult and painful way, and then turn to you for nourishment, not to mention love – perhaps for the rest of your life?"

This element seems a bit severe.
Its probably the main sticking point as regards repeal as it make the point that will be used by prolife to try to bring about a no vote.
It doesent show the compassionate side of that need for repeal.
I can see how prochoice would love the article, but there is no compassion in that paragraph.
Personally, in our current debate I would stick to the more compassionate need for repeal.
That can follow after repeal, but if opinion tightens I wouldn't be trotting out statements like that to try to convince anyone who was having doubts over the abortion issue as part of their decision of why to vote yes.

Why is there compassion needed for the unborn baby and not the woman who is pregnant?
IMO what the author says is absolutely correct and encompasses how I feel about the unborn baby.

Edward M · 25-03-2018 11:14AM

erica74 wrote: »

Why is there compassion needed for the unborn baby and not the woman who is pregnant?
IMO what the author says is absolutely correct and encompasses how I feel about the unborn baby.

I'm not arguing her article or your point of view as such at all.
I just imagine and from my own perspective even, if that was the reason alone repeal was being sought I might vote no.
Repeal is winning as the polls show, put the abortion issue in to it and then the opinion closes in.
I think losing sight of that and making statements like that won't sway the opinion of anyone having doubts over the abortion issue.
There are very important reasons medically, physically and mentally for repeal, that paragraph I quoted wouldn't IMO be the right way to sway doubters.

david75 · 25-03-2018 12:03PM

broken after reading this.

”In 2015 I was 21, and beaming with excitement that I was pregnant with our first child, same time as my sister too.

At a routine check up at 23 weeks I was scanned to find out I hardly had any amniotic fluid. We were told the devastating news that our baby had no kidneys, no bladder, very bad spine bifida, holes in his little heart and brain damage, but yet his heart was beating perfect. He didn’t know once he was out of my womb that he had no chance of survival.

I felt sick, I felt numb, and I felt robbed. I just got up and ran out of the room. I ran outside, sat on a bench at the side of the hospital sobbing my heart out with loads of people walking by me. One man stopped, he never asked what’s wrong but just wrapped his arms around me and said “you will be ok pet” I just cried my eyes out, and he walked away. I will never forget that man.

The hospital was referring me to another hospital but they said it could take 2 or 3 days. I couldn’t wait that long, so I went straight onto the internet for a private scan and got one that day. My partner’s sister brought us. On the way up I was praying, praying so hard to everyone in heaven, to God, “please let them be wrong, it was a mistake, my baby will be fine please” we got there and paid around €170 for the scan. The woman was lovely, I think her name was Monica, she scanned me and I could see straight away by her face that it was bad news. She just told us what the hospital told us. She tried so hard to get me a picture of the baby’s face on the 3D scan, left the room and came back in with 2 envelopes one with the scan pictures, and the other with our money back, she said she couldn’t accept it. She was a lady I would of paid any amount for that scan but she gave us our money back which I thought was nice.

We then went to the rotunda hospital a few days later, I remember sitting in the waiting room, all the other woman there pregnant. I sat on the chair trying my best to hold the tears in but I couldn’t. I couldn’t control myself, it was all so upsetting “why me,why my baby” again got scanned and told even more worst news about my poor little baby, pushing the scanner on me so hard because I had no fluid. It was so hard for them to see the baby, my stomach was sore for days after each scan. I asked was there even 1% chance and I was told 0% chance of survival. We were brought into a tiny room then.

I thought they would tell me I would be started or they were going to give me a C section, never in my life did I think they would tell me I have to continue with the pregnancy until he dies inside me or make it to full term, or go to Liverpool to get induced. I just remember standing up and feeling my world turn upside down. How could this be happening to me? I stood up and my body just went into shock I couldn’t believe what I was hearing, I started to get sick and while I was getting sick I started to wee myself. How embarrassing it sounds, I just went into complete shock.

If I continued with the pregnancy I would have to keep going to Dublin weekly for scans, just to see if his heart stopped beating, so I was just waiting for my baby to die. Everyone knew I was pregnant. I hated bumping into anybody, people asking when am I due, I got to the stage were I wouldn’t leave the house.

We got the money together and decided we would go to Liverpool, I just couldn’t do it. I felt so depressed and sad, it was like I was grieving and my child wasn’t even dead yet.
Everything was booked. We had to go back to the rotunda for my final scan in Ireland, they were hoping his heart would of stopped beating so I wouldn’t have to travel and have him at home, how horrible to be even told that, but there he was his heart beating away not knowing what was ahead.

I was starting to have doubts, the midwife Jane was so, so lovely, she told me if I did countinue on more than likely his heart would stop beating, or I could give birth and his back was so bad it could break during birth, and his lungs would of been filled up with the fluid so it would be so hard for him to breathe. I felt so sick, I wanted to see my baby open his eyes I would of loved to spend an hour with him, a minute, any time, but for his sake I couldn’t. I couldn’t put him through that.

I started to have awful bad nightmares at night and they were making me more scared to travel, I was absolutely petrified. Just myself and my partner traveled to Liverpool, our family wanted to come to support us, to be there, but I was having none of it. I knew they couldn’t miss work, but I was feeling so punished, punished for nobody being able to meet our little boy. It was such a horrible feeling felt so lonely and low and so so scared.

We were blessed to have an aunty living in Liverpool, I say she was like an angel, she and her husband helped us so much. I couldn’t imagine having to go over and stay in a hotel. We got a late flight out on Monday night, Tuesday morning we went to the women’s hospital for my final scan, this scan was to make sure 100% that he was very sick and had no chance of life, and again we were giving even more bad news his brain was so badly damaged, along with having no kidneys or bladder and everything else that was wrong with his tiny little body. The lady that was scanning me went into detail with everything, it was all so much to take in, how could all this be happening to my little boy? I was induced and stayed the night. I would never forget the pain I was in Wednesday morning, and then my Mam and dad and sister walked into the room, and my partners Mam and sister walked in. It was so emotional, I couldn’t believe they came over. My partner had it set up. They were there in the room the whole time untill he was born, 10 hours later my little boy was born still at 27 weeks. I carried him for 4 weeks known he was going to die and it was hell.

He was so beautiful, so perfect on the outside, but yet so damaged on the inside. The hospital treated us with so much respect and dignity, they were amazing at such a hard and sad time.

We left on Saturday and travelled home by boat. We were told his tiny white coffin had to be in the boot of the car for the journey home, it was awful but I was just thankful I could get my baby home. I wouldn’t have been able to leave with out him. Leaving the hospital with empty arms and an aching heart was bad enough.

We laid him to rest the next day, it was Mother’s Day, my first ever Mother’s Day and I burried my precious son whom I would of took my last breath so he could take his first. Luke was 3 last week and I think about him every minute of the day. ðŸ’™

Repeal the 8th so women don’t have to travel, don’t have to bring there baby home on a boat in the middle of the night in a boot of a car. I always feel so much was taken away from me. I would of loved my other sisters and my family to meet my son but they couldn’t, my home country let me down, let my son down and took so much away from us.”
#repealthe8th

---

TFMR Ireland

Leanbh mo Chroí

charlietheminxx · 25-03-2018 12:05PM

I read it too and was so sad. How can anybody believe that this is right?

david75 · 25-03-2018 12:17PM

I completely understand how a mother in that situation would have hope the child would live even for a little while. How anyone could support forcing her to is completely beyond me

bertieinexile · 25-03-2018 02:01PM

erica74 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/24/ann-enright-on-irelands-abortion-referendum

Article on The Guardian website today.
Some snippets from the article

What do you think of the author's words and thoughts on the topic?
Elsewhere in the article she suggested changing the word "pregnant" to "impregnated". It sounds more accurate in terms of this topic but overall, I can't imagine women who actually want to be pregnant going around saying "I'm impregnated" with joy and delight and when announcing the news! However, as we all know, every pregnancy is wholly different so in terms of "I've been impregnated and cannot have a baby" it sounds right to me.

***if you're going to continue to just keep banging on about murdering babies and other hysterical nonsense without stringing a coherent sentence together, you will be added to my ignore list, you'll have plenty of company there;)

This thread serves a useful purpose as long as people are posting their own opinions and trying to work through their own arguments in response to the arguments of others.
If it degenerates in to posting up excerpts from opinion pieces that you feel make the point better than you could yourself it's going to start looking like the emails you get from your aging aunt.

In fact if that's all you're looking for you may as well just go to the #repealthe8th #savethe8th twitter feeds.
If you want I could just start posting articles from #savethe8th right now. I could probably write a Casper/Phantomjs script to automate it.
There's also a load of really good stuff in the Irish Catholic. Are you ready?

January · 25-03-2018 02:03PM

charlietheminxx wrote: »

I read it too and was so sad. How can anybody believe that this is right?

I can't believe anyone would vote no after reading this. Listen I know people don't agree with abortion that's fine don't agree with it but by voting no you're forcing these women to continue to travel when there is an alternative for them. Why deny them this right because a you believe women (a very small minority btw) have abortions for spurious reasons.

I just don't get it.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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