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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #1682
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Until I hear what other language I am being asked to use, "on demand" means what it sounds like.
    The other jurisdiction would be England.
    Is that not clear from the post above?
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106526304&postcount=1626

    If you can't even provide a definition of what you mean by abortion on demand, then you're not going to be very successful in discussing the matter properly.

    As for England, they don't have laws similar to what's proposed here as their laws don't provide for an on-request model at all. And in any case, there's nothing in the post you've linked to that supports your claims about abortion on other grounds being improperly used to allow abortion "on demand" (whatever definition you're using for it).
    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Right. I see how you are trying to calculate things now.
    I'm tempted to be sarcastic and say that sounds much better, but we're talking about a hundred and seventy seven thousand deaths and sarcasm doesn't seem appropriate.

    You can save the sarcasm and focus on accuracy. The claim is plainly wrong.


  • #1683
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Dilation and curettage (D&C) is new to me

    Why on earth do you imagine you can weigh in and lecture people here when you are so ignorant on the topic?


  • #1684
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Use of the term "antichoice" is being used to suggest that pro-life is a position men who want to control women adopt. And then people get upset about not being able to have a choice. Why do we have any laws though... why do we lock out front doors behind us - do we not trust women? Or maybe men are the problem?



    Not really - only 50 women in the UK have had 8 or more abortions.

    What are you on about? Why do you feel the need to separate men from women?

    If you are "prolife" then you are antichoice. You want to continue to deny women the right to choose how to proceed with a pregnancy when it really has nothing to do with you.
    I believe, to the antichoice side, abortion on demand means abortion as contraception.

    I based this statement on what I have read particularly in this thread and the last about "abortion on demand".
    Not really - only 50 women in the UK have had 8 or more abortions.

    I'm not sure how this relates to what I said.


  • #1685
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Demand is a poor word for it as nobody really likes anyone demanding anything.

    I vote it is relabelled 'request to discontinue pregnancy'.


  • #1686
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    It isn't an accurate statement, it's purely being used to throw in to cause hysteria, nothing more.

    The stats you have shown have actually been proven wrong, they do not include miscarriage, you can't say 1 in 5 of all pregnancies end in abortion and say (not including miscarriages!). It's extremely biased and in my opinion very sly. One in every 7/8 pregnancy ends in an abortion when miscarriage is involved.

    Are you trying to tell me that there were no miscarriages in the UK? That children were either born or they were aborted?

    Have a look at this.
    http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/


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  • #1687
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    And comprehensive non abstinence based sex education.

    That probably goes hand-in-hand with availability of contraception. No harm in teaching about abstinence too, not that there's anything tricky there. Cause and effect etc.

    david75 wrote: »
    Pro lifer in fact cherry picking shocker!

    Lad it's you're link and the title, as presented as relevant here, may mislead some.


  • #1688
    Candamir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    thee glitz wrote: »
    That probably goes hand-in-hand with availability of contraception. No harm in teaching about abstinence too, not that there's anything tricky there. Cause and effect etc.

    Well it’s been fairly comprehensively proven that abstinence only sex education leads to an increase in teen pregnancy, as well as an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. So it’s not quite as straight forward as cause and effect. etc.


  • #1689
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Candamir wrote: »
    Well it’s been fairly comprehensively proven that abstinence only sex education leads to an increase in teen pregnancy, as well as an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. So it’s not quite as straight forward as cause and effect. etc.

    These are facts that you’ll never see the pro life crowd cherry pick from the fact buffet. They treat these awkward truths like the cocktail sausages in the buffet that look off to them so they disregard them.


  • #1690
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    erica74 wrote: »
    What are you on about? Why do you feel the need to separate men from women?

    It's not me - pro-choice supporters often base their arguments on it should being a woman's right to choose.
    If you are "prolife" then you are antichoice. You want to continue to deny women the right to choose how to proceed with a pregnancy when it really has nothing to do with you.

    Anti-choice in general, or just on this one specific matter? You attach negative connotations to pro-life ideology, to the belief that all human lives deserve protection. Ordinarily, we could hope that foetuses wouldn't need that against their mother, but so it is.
    I based this statement on what I have read particularly in this thread and the last about "abortion on demand".

    You'd do well not to take everything you read here at face value!
    I'm not sure how this relates to what I said.

    I think it does relate.


  • #1691
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Edward M wrote: »
    Have a look at this.
    http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

    Yeah, it was posted already. It even states they don't include miscarriages, did you read it? Honestly, did you actually read what you've posted? They go on to claim 1 in 5 of all pregnancies ends in abortion and then go on to say (excluding miscarriage), how difficult is that to grasp I mean Jesus Christ this has been done to death.

    "Approximately 20% of all pregnancies in Great Britain (excluding spontaneous miscarriages) currently end in abortion."

    So biased it's ridiculous. The statement they make literally is to suit their own agenda if you can't see it I honestly don't know what to tell you, I really, really don't.


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  • #1692
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Candamir wrote: »
    Well it’s been fairly comprehensively proven that abstinence only sex education leads to an increase in teen pregnancy, as well as an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. So it’s not quite as straight forward as cause and effect. etc.

    I didn't say anything about abstinence only sex-ed.


  • #1693
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about abstinence only sex-ed.

    Pretty much every high quality sex education class addresses peer pressure and consent etc... So nobody is expected to conclude sex is mandatory or expected to occur at a specific age.


  • #1694
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Yeah, it was posted already. It even states they don't include miscarriages, did you read it? Honestly, did you actually read what you've posted? They go on to claim 1 in 5 of all pregnancies ends in abortion and then go on to say (excluding miscarriage), how difficult is that to grasp I mean Jesus Christ this has been done to death.

    "Approximately 20% of all pregnancies in Great Britain (excluding spontaneous miscarriages) currently end in abortion."

    So biased it's ridiculous. The statement they make literally is to suit their own agenda if you can't see it I honestly don't know what to tell you, I really, really don't.

    If the need and choice is there, and you support choice, why would you try to rubbish the figures.
    It would be reasonable to assume also that some spontaneous miscarriages might just as easily end up being voluntarily aborted.
    Personally, I have no fear of the figures, even if higher, are you afraid they might cause concern somewhere?
    Have you any link to figures disputing them?


  • #1695
    Candamir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    thee glitz wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about abstinence only sex-ed.

    No. I didn’t say you did.

    My point was related to your simplistic “cause and effect” comment :rolleyes:


  • #1696
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Edward M wrote: »
    If the need and choice is there, and you support choice, why would you try to rubbish the figures.
    It would be reasonable to assume also that some spontaneous miscarriages might just as easily end up being voluntarily aborted.
    Personally, I have no fear of the figures, even if higher, are you afraid they might cause concern somewhere?
    Have you any link to figures disputing them?

    Because the figures aren't accurate. 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in the UK do NOT end in abortion, why is it so difficult for you to grasp this?

    I'm gonna type this in caps because you're quite clearly failing to understand this. THE STUDY STATES THAT ONE IN FIVE OF ALL PREGNANCIES END IN ABORTION. THEY GO ON TO STATE THAT THEY ARE DISCOUNTING MISCARRIAGE FROM THIS STAT. THEREFORE THEY ARE MANIPULATING THE STAT TO SUIT THEIR AGENDA.

    The figures are wildly inaccurate, and they are quite clearly geared towards suiting the pro-life agenda. The very link you posted disputes it's own figures Jesus Christ do I need to grab a colouring book and some crayons to get this to sink in, nobody can be THAT ignorant, you're either trolling, goading or you're blatantly carrying this on on purpose.


  • #1697
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Pretty much every high quality sex education class addresses peer pressure and consent etc... So nobody is expected to conclude sex is mandatory or expected to occur at a specific age.

    Sounds good ye.
    Candamir wrote: »
    No. I didn’t say you did.

    My point was related to your simplistic “cause and effect” comment :rolleyes:

    You've replied to some point I didn't make. Just saying that I don't disagree with you.


  • #1698
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Because the figures aren't accurate. 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in the UK do NOT end in abortion, why is it so difficult for you to grasp this?

    I'm gonna type this in caps because you're quite clearly failing to understand this. THE STUDY STATES THAT ONE IN FIVE OF ALL PREGNANCIES END IN ABORTION. THEY GO ON TO STATE THAT THEY ARE DISCOUNTING MISCARRIAGE FROM THIS STAT. THEREFORE THEY ARE MANIPULATING THE STAT TO SUIT THEIR AGENDA.

    The figures are wildly inaccurate, and they are quite clearly geared towards suiting the pro-life agenda. The very link you posted disputes it's own figures Jesus Christ do I need to grab a colouring book and some crayons to get this to sink in, nobody can be THAT ignorant, you're either trolling, goading or you're blatantly carrying this on on purpose.

    Well if my mind wasn't made up, someone showed me that link of figures up against your, "Jesus Christ" .... I think I'd be looking at the figures as being pretty close to correct.


  • #1699
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    If only there were rules in referenda that prohibited dishonesty lies cherry picking nonsense hysteria and misrepresentation of facts.

    The pro life campaign would have nothing to talk about.


  • #1700
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    How about 'a figure equivalent to one quarter of all live births are aborted' ?


  • #1701
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    So a new born baby in extreme agony unable to breathe and suffering Severe pain and distress, just for a few minutes life is preferable to abortion. That’s just disgusting


    don’t even know what to say to this.

    https://twitter.com/emeraldkc/status/977604557974003713?s=21


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  • #1702
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    "Join the Rebellion"? They know rebellions are typically opposed to the status quo, right? Whereas they're campaigning for it.

    They're not the Rebellion, they're the Empire!


  • #1703
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    david75 wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/emeraldkc/status/977604557974003713?s=21

    Google Scholar is a search engine which searches published papers in journals.

    "Fatal Fetal Abnormality" gets about 58,000 hits.

    "Fatal Foetal Abnormality" gets about 26,500.

    I strongly suspect that Jim Dornan is being quoted out of context or misquoted.


  • #1704
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    david75 wrote: »
    So a new born baby in extreme agony unable to breathe and suffering Severe pain and distress, just for a few minutes life is preferable to abortion. That’s just disgusting


    don’t even know what to say to this.

    https://twitter.com/emeraldkc/status/977604557974003713?s=21



    .
    A search of the Wiley Online Library (a database of academic resources available online) for the term “fatal foetal abnormality” produces 2649 results. Searching for the American spelling “fatal fetal abnormality” produces 9513 results: over a thousand books, over eight thousand articles and 45 different Cochrane reviews covering over 100 research articles involving over a million women use the term “fatal foetal abnormality”. It is a medical term.

    https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/07/06/fatal-foetal-abnormality/


  • #1705
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    'abortion on demand' gets 393,000 hits

    the specific phrase "abortion on demand" gets 9,460


  • #1706
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    In fairness, this is a tweet quoting a someone talking on a TV show.

    I would be slow to pin the literal meaning of the soundbite of the Professor.


  • #1707
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    pleas advice wrote: »
    'abortion on demand' gets 393,000 hits

    the specific phrase "abortion on demand" gets 9,460

    Elephantiasis gets 36,500 hits. This is fun.


  • #1708
    marsbar1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 95 ✭✭marsbar1


    I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin


  • #1709
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    marsbar1 wrote: »
    I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

    How would abortion be the "destruction of ireland"? And what exactly are "Irish values"?


  • #1710
    marsbar1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 95 ✭✭marsbar1


    The election of Leo Varadkar was one of those nails in the coffin. Its was like the election of Obama in the USA. I predict Ireland will have to be nearly destroyed before people wake up to see the damage, and then Ireland will have it's Trump Antidote in the next Taoiseach


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  • #1711
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    marsbar1 wrote: »
    I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

    Ireland and Irish values?

    Well then you no doubt have problems with consecutive governments selling us off to vulture funds and banks and you’re all for socially progressive endeavours? Like marriage equality and abortion?


This discussion has been closed.
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