The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

freshpopcorn · 23-03-2018 10:45PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

I have an aunt in her 60s sharing pro life stuff. Today it was from a page called courage to love.

It's full of anecdotal stories of women who followed through with unplanned pregnancies, pictures of newborns and unfounded statistics of women becoming suicidal after an abortion.

It really annoys me when people blindly believe these pages without researching facts.

The person locally who's into it is or was the district nurse. So, she can talk about all the babies she's met over the years. She'd also be into sharing similar.

david75 · 23-03-2018 10:45PM

That’s fair. But given the constant barrage they come under it would shape their stance and takes on everything. Understandably.

23-03-2018 11:05PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I do think both sides needs to keep certain people in their box to get the result they want!

Yeah some irritating people on the repeal side.
I'm mean more on the doorstep and on the street. The pro life side have a habit in my experience of getting a little ratty if you won't take one of their leaflets or put them in the bin in front of them.

bertieinexile · 23-03-2018 11:15PM

Looking over the last few pages this seems like a curiously one sided, highly energetic, thread.
It might be interesting to engage on some of the issues and try for a calmer, more rational, discussion.
It might be just as interesting to see if that's even possible here. I certainly hope it is

erica74's post seems like a good place to get started

erica74 wrote: »

Anyway...

Just found this
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/referendum-tracker
Interesting for anyone watching politicians or particular parties.

The Irish Times have 66 TDs down as backing abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.
That doesn't include 13 Sinn Fein TD's who they have down as undeclared. Does anyone doubt how they will vote?
That makes 79 - a Dail majority.
The IT has 23 other TDs down as undeclared.
You can add however many more of those to your simple majority.
So how is it possible, according to the last two polls, for 5% of the public (including Simon Coveney) to be in favour of repeal but against abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.
Or to phrase it differently, do posters on this thread believe they can count on that 5% to stay in the repeal camp? It seems like the softest vote ever recorded in an Irish opinion poll.
What do you make of the 20% telling pollsters they are undecided when every media outlet, every party and all respectable opinion is in favour of a Yes vote.
Related point: Paddy Power now have a No vote at 11/8

erica74 wrote: »

https://www.wtva.com/content/national/477569043.html?ref=043
Limiting access to abortion doesn't lower the amount of abortions but does make them unsafe.

https://www.wtva.com/content/national/477713323.html?ref=323
Women in Poland have to go to Germany.

The number of recorded abortions in Poland declined dramatically from around 16% in 1988 to about a quarter of a percent in 1993 (and has stayed around there) because of restrictive laws introduced after the end of communism. Laws that aren't very different from our own.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-poland.html

Not surprisingly there are some who claim that these laws in Poland have not saved lives. They claim the number of Polish women obtaining abortions has remained the same. The problem for people making these claims is that their estimates of the true numbers are all over the place.
Some claim the number is 5 times the official rate some claim it is 75 times greater. Obviously if there was any reliable methodology underlying these estimates they wouldn't be as wildly different as they are. They seem a lot more like wishful thinking.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37449903

Looking forward to your replies

freshpopcorn · 23-03-2018 11:22PM

How I started looking at the stuff on Facebook again was I saw a post shared about a local TD not supporting the referendum and how angry somebody was with him.
During the marriage referendum he was a county Councillor and he said he was voting no and in his campaign for the general election in 2016 it was clear he was a pro-life TD.I think it might have even being mentioned on the Vincent Brown debates and yet people were shocked/outraged with him!

Candamir · 23-03-2018 11:35PM

Interestingly today is ‘Czarny Piatek’ in Poland - a repeat of the Czarny poniedziałek covered in the second link above. There was also a Black Friday in Dublin protest at the GPO today. A lot of Polish women and men are thoroughly fed up of having to protest this. Again.
The very conservative PiS are unlikely to be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

Nettle Soup · 23-03-2018 11:37PM

I just hope people do their research and not listen to the spin from the likes of Iona and the Roman church. During the equality referendum there was all kinds of scaremongering especially relating to what would happen to children. It was all nonsense of course but it did push people to vote No. I know people who voted No and deeply regretted it when they saw the emotion across the gay community afterwards. They saw that the world kept spinning and even became a happier place.

bertieinexile · 23-03-2018 11:51PM

Candamir wrote: »

Interestingly today is ‘Czarny Piatek’ in Poland - a repeat of the Czarny poniedziałek covered in the second link above. There was also a Black Friday in Dublin protest at the GPO today. A lot of Polish women and men are thoroughly fed up of having to protest this. Again.
The very conservative PiS are unlikely to be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

I note what you are saying but I'm having a hard time drawing out a counter argument in it to what I said above.

Being fed up protesting something doesn't make you either right or popularly supported.

The "very conservative PiS" were at 44% in a recent poll and had a healthy 30% lead over their nearest rival. So I don't suppose they will be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

As far as having days dedicated to things goes, Wednesday was the 13th World Down Syndrome Day.

Annasopra · 23-03-2018 11:54PM

italodisco wrote: »

So why did the pro choice group call a hotel and make threats because the pro life group were having some praise jebus save the babies event? Would that not be considered trying to stop them have an opinion?

Why did pro lifers intimidate people outside a pro choice event I attended last night?

bertieinexile · 23-03-2018 11:56PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I just hope people do their research and not listen to the spin from the likes of Iona and the Roman church.

One way of inspiring that research might be to listen to Iona and the Roman church and then try to come up with counter arguments. Just saying.

Annasopra · 24-03-2018 12:06AM

thee glitz wrote: »

It is so when we are being told that we can have this generally agreeable thing, but only if we also agree to something which many find abhorrent. Allowance of that generally agreeable (abortion in the case of medical necessity, and it already happens, but giving doctors more discretion) will also mean abortion for any/no reason up to a nominal point.

Given what's planned, I will vote No - not because I'm a fan of the 8th, but because it what prevents abortion on demand, protecting the unborn.

I can understand to some extent. The thing is though. Both the citizens assembly and oireachtas committee looked objectively at this issue. They bought in experts. They looked at what happens in the case of women who are raped and incest victims. They looked at how other jurisdictions deal with this. Having looked at it through that prism they came to the conclusion that other jurisdictions have problematic laws in this area and that the only way to prevent retraumatisation of rape snd incest victims is to legaaly allow abortion on request upto 12 weeks.

Annasopra · 24-03-2018 12:15AM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I think it's been very quiet. Other than the odd paid advert from pro-life that shows up on my Facebook feed, and those silly adverts on van, I'm only really hearing about it from Boards. I'm going to guess once a date is set, there will be more of a push? The marriage referendum had lots of time, and as a result it turned quite nasty.

I wonder if Kanto/Cambridge Analytica are still pouring all the money in

Annasopra · 24-03-2018 12:37AM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Thanks the one post on here to actually make me laugh in a good way.

The arguments genuinely get more silly

Annasopra · 24-03-2018 12:40AM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Given that fundamentalist Muslims don't support abortion I'd assume you'd admire them. Must be confusing for you

Centrist Irish Muslims support the 36th amendment by the way.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/influential-muslim-leader-backs-campaign-for-the-repeal-of-the-eighth-amendment-36641031.html

robarmstrong · 24-03-2018 12:40AM

Convinced some posters have this playing in the background while they're typin'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ednKK8GlvwI

24-03-2018 12:41AM

Yeah that's not even an argument, just a rant by an idiot.
I think people forget that anyone can see most if not all of the posts you make on here. Quite easy to see if someone is a genuine contributor or not.

bertieinexile · 24-03-2018 12:49AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I can understand to some extent.

That really is a breath of fresh air. Great to hear

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The thing is though. Both the citizens assembly and oireachtas committee looked objectively at this issue. They bought in experts. They looked at what happens in the case of women who are raped and incest victims. They looked at how other jurisdictions deal with this. Having looked at it through that prism they came to the conclusion that other jurisdictions have problematic laws in this area and that the only way to prevent retraumatisation of rape snd incest victims is to legaaly allow abortion on request upto 12 weeks.

I will leave you alone about this whole idea that the social sciences have anything to do with objective truth. Do you really mean it.

Neither side is claiming that there was any balance in the collection of experts that was paraded before the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. (And if you're looking for any humour in this whole debate there were some real disasters there). But as someone who, I'd guess, normally thinks of their pro-choice position being founded on reason you'd accept your appeal to experts above is actually an argument from authority.
Lets stick with reason and rational arguments for the moment.

How many women a year in Ireland do you think end up in the awful situation of being pregnant as a result of rape? And what do you think happens to those of them who want abortions? And for them what would change if the 8th was repealed?

Candamir · 24-03-2018 12:58AM

bertieinexile wrote: »

I note what you are saying but I'm having a hard time drawing out a counter argument in it to what I said above.

Being fed up protesting something doesn't make you either right or popularly supported.

The "very conservative PiS" were at 44% in a recent poll and had a healthy 30% lead over their nearest rival. So I don't suppose they will be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

As far as having days dedicated to things goes, Wednesday was the 13th World Down Syndrome Day.

If I’d wanted to make a counter argument, I’d have made one. It was an observation of the coincidental fact that a protest from 2016 covered in a link posted happened to be on again today.
Maybe don’t always be looking for the argument?

Yes, PiS are quite popular in Poland, particularly among the older generation. A lot of them are also convinced that the Russians were responsible for shooting down the Tupolev carrying their president and many of the top politicians and military that crashed in bad weather on the way to Katyn in 2010.
That’s another observation.

January · 24-03-2018 01:24AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

How I started looking at the stuff on Facebook again was I saw a post shared about a local TD not supporting the referendum and how angry somebody was with him.
During the marriage referendum he was a county Councillor and he said he was voting no and in his campaign for the general election in 2016 it was clear he was a pro-life TD.I think it might have even being mentioned on the Vincent Brown debates and yet people were shocked/outraged with him!

Ah Mr. Chambers the little puppet doll who can't canvas on a door without his mammy or daddy hovering at his shoulder ready to answer any out of the ordinary questions for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an ear piece in when he's in the Dáil being fed what to say line by line.

24-03-2018 01:25AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Centrist Irish Muslims support the 36th amendment by the way.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/influential-muslim-leader-backs-campaign-for-the-repeal-of-the-eighth-amendment-36641031.html

I missed this article but did read one previously on his stance against female circumcision.

He appears to be an example of a person who can be deeply religios but also have understanding, compassion and common sense.

freshpopcorn · 24-03-2018 01:33AM

January wrote: »

Ah Mr. Chambers the little puppet doll who can't canvas on a door without his mammy or daddy hovering at his shoulder ready to answer any out of the ordinary questions for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an ear piece in when he's in the Dáil being fed what to say line by line.

It wasn't him. I actually respected him during the marriage referendum when he said he was voting no and gave his reason when he was a county Councillor. Other TD's in my area refused to answer from what I remember. He has always being a clear pro-life TD to me and he topped the poll in the general election. I just don't see how people are shocked/outraged by it.

24-03-2018 01:35AM

bertieinexile wrote: »

How many women a year in Ireland do you think end up in the awful situation of being pregnant as a result of rape? And what do you think happens to those of them who want abortions? And for them what would change if the 8th was repealed?

This question has been posed in the thread already. Tired and going to bed so going to keep my reply short.

Too many.

They are forced to go to England to obtain a termination, purchase termination pills illegally, for which pro life posters on here have said they should be jailed for, or forced to carry to term which for many compounds the mental anguish of being raped.

If repealed they will have a choice to obtain the necessary termination services in their own country.

freshpopcorn · 24-03-2018 03:27AM

I was on Twitter there and I saw somebody saying that a certain company was funding a keep/repeal campaign. Basically saying we should boycott it.
Will we see much of this in the coming weeks? if businesses show an interest in the campaign? or would it turn you off a company?
Personally here it wouldn't really turn me off purchasing something from the company.

applehunter · 24-03-2018 03:45AM

Carphone Warehouse

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/carphone-warehouse-slammed-by-both-sides-of-the-abortion-debate-after-their-prochoice-campaign-35166899.html

applehunter · 24-03-2018 04:12AM

https://twitter.com/KeithMillsD7

Doing some sterling work with polls etc..

Worth a follow from both sides and if you like the Eurovision.:pac:

Turn off your repeal shields.

freshpopcorn · 24-03-2018 04:28AM

It's not them!

applehunter · 24-03-2018 04:54AM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm originally from a country that has legal abortion. And its no big deal. The clinics are discreet. I think it's free. Not sure what limits there as far as how many weeks. Strangely enough there isn't a huge demand as far as I know. There aren't queues of girls/women lining up for abortions. I don't believe there is a frequent flyer card or anything like that. If you need/want an abortion you get one. Of the hundreds of females I know from back home only few have said they had an abortion.

Maybe its because there was compulsory, thorough sex ed and free/subsidised contraception. That probably helps.

I was involved in 2 abortions. I think. A girl at university that I had a ONS with later claimed she had to have an abortion because of it. We used condoms but maybe she was telling the truth. I say maybe because she was stalker crazy! The other was a girl who I was a FB with. Once again we used condoms but as we all know they aren't 100%. Neither of us wanted kids and we certainly didn't want to have a relationship so I took her to the clinic. She had made the appointment. We were interviewed together. They did some tests on her and interviewed her again (to make sure I wasn't forcing her to do it) then she went through for the procedure. It took a few hours from start to finish (interviews, tests, procedure, recovery) then I drove her home. One of her friends came round to look after her that evening and she was back in work the next day (I think).

The amazing thing is with all this going on the country hasn't collapsed, no zombie apocalypse. There's a decent standard of living, good education, robust economy and life goes on.

This post got 16 thanks.

This is not a man to be admired.

Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares.

Is this a plant for the no side?

_Dara_ · 24-03-2018 05:49AM

Why are some people on this so sore about posts receiving multiple thanks?

Zubeneschamali · 24-03-2018 07:18AM

applehunter wrote: »

https://twitter.com/KeithMillsD7

Keith Mills? Are you joking me?

Achasanai · 24-03-2018 08:11AM

Mr.H wrote: »

I guess I am being more harsh on the side I stand with because I feel like we are losing the moral high ground with some of the attitudes out there. Mainly on campuses. I feel like sometimes the extreme liberals let down their own side. I think that's why I can come across as on the other side. I do question the pro choice not because I want you or anyone to change your mind. But because I want you to reinforce my mind.

Listen none of this talking might matter but I know a scary amount of people who I thought would be voting yes and will be voting no. I don't think this is straight forward.

I get that some people on the pro-choice side might have issues with some aspects of others who profess the same belief: it's a large group with many different social/age/etc strata. But I really don't think the moral ground is being lost. The stories coming out about the anti-choice side are surely deeply worrying? And yet, we hear nothing from that side on here suggesting that they have issues with the more extreme elements of their side. Interestingly, what we get are three or four posters from the anti-choice brigade slavishly liking every single post you make.

Regardless of this, the end goal should be less who you are lining up with and more whether you agree or not with what you're lining up for.

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I think it's been very quiet. Other than the odd paid advert from pro-life that shows up on my Facebook feed, and those silly adverts on van, I'm only really hearing about it from Boards. I'm going to guess once a date is set, there will be more of a push? The marriage referendum had lots of time, and as a result it turned quite nasty.

I think it's starting. I work in quite a conservative workplace, and people are beginning to talk about it. What's surprising - and kind of the opposite to what Mr H has said has been his experience - is that there are many people I'm talking to - coming from a conservative background or a reactionary one - who have changed their mind in the past few months, and are going to be voting for repeal. Older people, too, including my dad.

I do think Mr H's point about not taking things for granted is a good one. It will be important to talk about this issue with whoever wants to engage or listen.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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