Will 6N ever grow?

One of the problems with growth is the length of time it would take to complete a tournament with even just one more team in it.

B-D-P-- wrote: »

So just pondering, probably a silly question.
But does the rest of Europe have any good Rugby teams?
I would have thought the likes of Germany, Poland and the sorts would throw out some beefy teams that would be able to throw the Rubber oval backwards?

How come Rugby isin't as popular in the rest of the continent?

It does have some very good sides but they wont be added to 6 nations and 6 nations wont add promotion/relegation for a variety of reasons.

cruizer101 wrote: »

I think Georgia and Romania were the only other European teams in the 2015 would cup so they would likely be the next to join if there was any but really even the standard of them is a good bit below the 6N.

They were the only other european sides because Europe is only given 2 automatic spots and 1 more potentially via repechage(playoffs between regions)

prawnsambo wrote: »

One of the problems with growth is the length of time it would take to complete a tournament with even just one more team in it.

Yeah thats part of it as well. Now you could add 2 teams and then have 2 groups of 4 with everyone then playing 2 additional games but to make 5 weeks of games but would some of the traditional countries go year or years without potentially playing each other?

bilston wrote: »

It all boils down to money and room.in the calendar.

Georgia are comfortably better than the rest in Europe but whether they would be competitive in the 6Ns is highly questionable. Of course with financial support and time they could get there.

However I've wondered in the past that if Germany, or perhaps Spain, were as good as Georgia then would more of an effort be made to fast track them into the 6Ns for financial reasons?

Putting money to the side to expand the 6Ns would probably require a change in format. Maybe two groups of 4 with play offs and just become a European Championship. But personally I'd hate to see that, maybe one day it will happen but put it this way I'd be surprised if it happened in the next 10-20 years.

Possibly but we wont really know if Georgians would be competitive in the 6 nations because the 6 nations sides refuse(??)/dont play Georgia and certainly not in Georgia.

Milani Mealy Sleepwear wrote: »

No real need right now Italy where brought in and have been on the cusp of prigressing for years but never have Georgia are the dominant team outside of the 6nayions but would likely become a new year after year wooden spoon that's not good for the 6 nations

Argentina where making World Cup quarter and semis before being accepted to the tri nations if we just allow Georgia in without them regularly being able to compete it damages the tournament

A Churchill cup type competition would be a better stepping stone for now

Georgians need to be given more games against 6 nations sides before a step up happens. Italy were giving loads of games against us and others before they joined to make the 6 nations and they were beating us regularly.
However the Georgians dont want a churchill cup type tournament. And how exactly is that better for them?
They need full tests. Theyve proven they can beat the rest of europe. They need full tests and some in Georgia as well, not just in Dublin/London/Cardiff

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

:rolleyes:
How am i being precious?
A churchill cup is no good to them. They need games against 6 nations sides first teams not weakened teams. How else do we get more sides to the top tier of international rugby if we dont give them games against the top sides?

There's a subtlety there being that they need to be beating weakened teams not just playing top sides

Mc Love wrote: »

Could it be moved to the Summer if more teams were brought in? Surely Spain is one nation that could possibly join?

Should it be moved to summer? Global calendar will see some changes but players need time off already and they get feck all as it is.
Spain arent near ready to step up. Not strong enough.

ec18 wrote: »

There's a subtlety there being that they need to be beating weakened teams not just playing top sides

But they dont even get enough games against weakened sides. They need more games full stop.

Mc Love wrote: »

The other side of the coin is they do get paid handsomely for the fact. They do get some time off during the season (irish players do anyway)

They get time off games but how much real off time do they have in season?

Chivito550 wrote: »

2 groups of 4 is a dreadful idea. It would remove the concept of the Grand Slam from the championship, which is a slap in the face of the history of the event.

Promotion/ relegation via a playoff is the fairest method. There's promotion/ relegation between tiers 2, 3 and 4 etc in Europe, so why not to tier 1 too?

If the 6 nations are good enough then the bottom team should have no problem disposing of Georgia. Are Italy/France/Scotland worried they might lose to them and spend a year playing Spain and Romania?

There isnt promotion because the top tier sides have too much to lose financially by not playing in the 6 nations. 2 groups of 4 may remove a grand slam of beating all the traditional sides but so what if it helps improve things and gives more sides a chance of playing at the top level. It also allows all sides play 5 games.
Yes some of those countries are worried about losing to Georgia and they should be as their finances would be f****d without being in the 6 Nations - its about 20% of IRFUs annual income and thats similar for all other countries.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Promotion/Relegation is never going to happen. There is no benefit to any of the current 6N teams to allow it so why would they?

A tournament without Scotland, Wales (or indeed Ireland) would be ****.

Exactly and when 6 nations is so vital to finances then nothing will change. We need more competitive sides but simply introducing promotion/relegation isnt good enough. We've won a grand slam this year but go back to the 90s when we were ****e and Italy were regularly beating us. What if we had been relegated and Italy added in our place. It would have done us no good.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Exactly and when 6 nations is so vital to finances then nothing will change. We need more competitive sides but simply introducing promotion/relegation isnt good enough. We've won a grand slam this year but go back to the 90s when we were ****e and Italy were regularly beating us. What if we had been relegated and Italy added in our place. It would have done us no good.

Hardly comparable. By adding Italy, the number of weekends of rugby remained at 5. The difference is that no team has a bye week now. Italy were never going to replace anyone. Expansion was the natural thing to happen.

Expanding to 7 is messy as it will bring back the bye week, and result in 7 weekends of rugby. Hence why a playoff is the best option.

I like the idea posited elsewhere of a European tournament every few years. I think it would offer a better means of competition for the tier 2 nations and serve as an excellent advertisement for the game. Could take place in lieu of the 6 Nations or in the summer, in place of the June series.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If Georgia or indeed another nation comes into the fold then it follows that their club structure needs to follow into the club scene as well. To so so means more adjusting with the two cups, and is Georgian rugby able to support this much of a commitment?

To get back on track; to be fair to World Rugby but they are facilitating the lower tier nations into the International seasons more and more with step up tests but it cannot be rushed at the risk of making aspirants look weak.

They are bringing more tests but possibly we need to stop making long term schedule of tests to allow for more games with the supposed tier 2 sides. Having a tour schedule arranged a decade in advance does nothing to help tier 2 sides.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Hardly comparable. By adding Italy, the number of weekends of rugby remained at 5. The difference is that no team has a bye week now. Italy were never going to replace anyone. Expansion was the natural thing to happen.

Expanding to 7 is messy as it will bring back the bye week, and result in 7 weekends of rugby. Hence why a playoff is the best option.

It is comparable. We were horrific in the 90s. We could beat Wales and thats about it. We still finished last virtually every year
Bringing in a playoff just wont happen whether its the supposed best option or not. No 6 Nations side will vote for it as it brings the risk they could lose and none can afford to miss out

They could split the tournament into two periods Oct/November and March/April to facilitate more teams, the gap would hinder momentum but it happens in other competitions Champions Cup, champions league etc.
It would mean losing some November internationals but you could still have one or two as warm up games and two or three championship games in Oct/Nov, some of the Nov internationals are pointless already.

I'd like to see Georgia would get 3 tests against the 6Ns each year, one of which would be in Tblissi and could be played in either November or June. A bit more exposure, added to more finance from TV and sponsors is bound to have a positive effect on rugby there.

They are got between two worlds...too good for the rest but not good enough for the big table yet. The problem is that comparative sides like the South Sea Islanders and Canada, USA and Japan are all too far away for them to enter some kind of tournament with them.

DJIMI TRARORE wrote: »

I don't know much about international rugby admin,etc,but long term,cud Germany,Spain Romania,Georgia international teams be allowed play in H cup or pro 14 or other competions,just throwing it out there for consideration

International sides wouldnt be able to play in it as the players are contracted/if at all to sides in France/England.
There is a qualifying competition for the challenge cup.
There has been russian, georgian, spanish sides competing in that for several years

There was no Rugby World Cup in 2007. Never happened.

joseywhales wrote: »

Yes it's a competitive sport where losing costs. It's against the spirit of sport in general to have this kind of protectionism, putting the vested interest of groups above that of the open market is immoral and terrible leadership. It's never going to happen and it being the right thing to do are completely different things. There has to be at least a garaunteed pathway established, you can't say to Georgia, "even if you win every game for the next 100 years you will never play in our competition"

It is but while the 6 nations need to open to play more games against Georgia, Romania it would be crazy to have the set up where you go from playing england, france etc to playing russia, spain. Loss of income would f*** up the 6 nations completely. There certainly does need to be a pathway but it cant be a simple promotion/relegation even with a playoff at first. something else needs to be looked at.

Buer wrote: »

I just don't see how Georgia being entered into the 6N is going to improve them. We've already seen that being exposed regularly to a higher level has completely failed for Italy and they've gone significantly backwards since the 1990s if anything.

Georgia would perform, at best, as well as Italy have done. They're in a state of limbo at the moment where they're simply too good for the level they are competing at but not good enough for tier one nations. I think there has to be some sort of look at their domestic game for a start as well as bringing them more into the fold for summer/autumn internationals to give them some sort of regular exposure.

On the flip side is Italy. There has been a massive commitment towards improving them over the past 20 years. To relegate them from the 6N would be massively damaging to any progress the game could potentially make in the coming years particularly with their domestic game now starting to look better than it has done in recent years.

Italy didnt have a place in a domestic competition of sufficient standard until too late after they joined the 6 nations. If any other nation is to potentially join or be able to join the 6 nations they need higher standards of domestic rugby to play first.
and as ive said already the problem with the summer series and given them games there is games are decided by the big boys years in advance and the smaller countries dont get a look in. that needs to change first

Podge_irl wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Yes it's a competitive sport where losing costs. It's against the spirit of sport in general to have this kind of protectionism, putting the vested interest of groups above that of the open market is immoral and terrible leadership. It's never going to happen and it being the right thing to do are completely different things. There has to be at least a garaunteed pathway established, you can't say to Georgia, "even if you win every game for the next 100 years you will never play in our competition"

Sure you can. The 6N is a closed member's club. It is not run by World Rugby. Why on earth would any of its members vote to risk their membership?

I care about rugby in Georgia significantly less than I care about rugby in Ireland. I would like the sport to grow but not at the expense of the best rugby tournament in the world and all its attendant history.

Because if you return on in investment has a more long term forecast, not controlling markets and increasing the size of your market will pay off. We are talking 50-100 year horizon. If we want to think big in terms of the sports health. And the revenue for any competition.

I can see how promotion relugation right now might seem too big a commitment. But there has to be some commitment to a pathway. Like an earlier suggestion that all top tier nation's set aside time to play the tier 2 champion and if the same champion wins for 3 consecutive years and beats 5/6 tier one nation's consistently for 3 years they get a promotion playoff. Even that glimmer of light is a door that can be opened in time.

Unless the respective unions can wrest control of players from their clubs, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of the 6N being expanded. And there's a similar chance of any member of the current 6N voting like turkeys for Christmas.

A separate competition like a European cup would have a better chance. But it would be over the dead bodies of various vested interests in the club game.

triple nipple wrote: »

Forget Georgia, let's get Japan into the 6 nations. They are a fantastic side and could definitely compete!

Japan are in rugby terms a southern hemisphere side with super rugby side etc. And the travel makes it a complete non runner.

I'd love to see a Jaguares style outfit enter the Pro14, but from Georgia. Tbilisi is hardly any more dangerous than South Africa right now, you'd think?