Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

end of the road wrote: »

because it's human, and it will develop into a person, and therefore it's right to life has to be protected.

So as predicted you did not answer the question but simply, once again, restated the thing I am questioning. No surprise there.

However what you DO say here is what I also say. That it is NOT a person. The question / evidence / challenge to you therefore is to offer the arguments you have been dodging so far that links rights and concerns to biological humanity rather than person hood. You are simply happy to beg the question.

This you have not done and, I suspect, can not do. It would require more knowledge of science and philosophy than you have displayed, and more willingness to engage in good faith with the conversation than you have demonstrated.

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

The moment cells divide it is life, you can argue when it should be considered human life or not but do accept that when you decide to have an abortion it is extinguishing life. I know how I will be voting and I am not even religious.

Voting to ban IVF, the Morning After pill, and travel to England?

end of the road wrote: »

abortion is highly likely being used as birth control

You're either a man who has no experience with abortion or a woman who has never had or known anyone who has had an abortion.

This is a ridiculous, disgusting and disrespectful statement to anyone who has even second-hand experience of abortion.

end of the road wrote: »

given there isn't going to be a vote on those i'd suggest they are irrelevant. the first 2 are nothing to do with abortion. and the third would effect those not procuring abortion if it was implemented.

If you read the post I was responding to, that poster believes life begins at conception. IVF, MAP and travel to England end life after conception in exactly the same way as termination up to 12 weeks as proposed here.

So to be consistent, the poster should be against those.

Clearly supporters of the 8th don't really believe life begins at conception or they would care about those cases. But if they don't believe that, then the 8th is stupid and should be repealed, so they have to pretend to believe that, and then change the subject. Or, as you just did, announce that this is all somehow "irrelevant".

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It is manifestly relevant to your statement.



The statement that abortion would be (or is) used as birth control shows a massive lack of understanding of the abortion procedure, the physical and mental impact. It also denigrates women who obtain abortions and shows little to no respect to women in general.

i would have to disagree with both statements given that abortion involves the killing of a human being.
my opinion no more denigrates women who have abortions then my opinion on a woman who would kill a newborn denigrates women who do it. it's the act that is the problem.

swampgas wrote: »

Except when the Irish woman hops on a plane, then you don't mind at all.

You don't really do consistency, do you?

i do very much mind but she is legally allowed to do it given it's legal in britain and we cannot stop freedom of movement unless someone is a criminal.

SusieBlue wrote: »

But if she’s traveling to callously murder a defenseless irish citizen surely she is a criminal? And we’d be stopping her from going at all costs and unconveniences?

morally she has commited a murder yes . she has killed the most defenseless, the unborn. however, we have freedom of movement, and that means people will be going to other countries to commit acts that are legal there. we can't prosecute people who commit legal acts in other countries.
we can however, vote to prevent the killing of the unborn here in ireland, which is what i, and many others will be trying to do come referendum day via our no vote.

david75 wrote: »

So you’re ok with abortion. Just not in Ireland.

nope. i'm not okay with it.

david75 wrote: »

But that’s not nimbyism? It’s hypocritical that much is certain.

it's not nimbyism or hypocritical to recognise the reality that we cannot stop someone going abroad unless it's to commit a criminal act in a country where the act is also criminal, or they have commited a criminal act here in ireland.

end of the road wrote: »

however, we have freedom of movement, and that means people will be going to other countries to commit acts that are legal there. we can't prosecute people who commit legal acts in other countries.

Wrong in two ways.

Firstly, the 8th amendment has an exemption from the various EU treaties, so freedom of movement wouldn't be a barrier to prosecuting someone having an abortion overseas if we wanted to.

Secondly, even if that wasn't the case, freedom of movement doesn't prevent us from criminalising acts that are legal elsewhere. For example, someone in Ireland who arranged the euthanasia or assisted suicide of another person abroad could still be tried under Irish laws. The same could be applied to abortion.

This is moot though, because the reason we don't prosecute people for having abortions abroad is simply because we don't want to, and that includes you.

robarmstrong wrote: »

It's not a human being. It's a developing one.

I'll bite though.

My partner and I have suffered numerous mc's, one stillbirth, and we had to have one abortion. We had to abort due to her uterine wall not being stable (fully healed) enough to support that baby's growth and development. We had to travel to the UK to do that.

Do you think it is right that we had to travel to have this medical procedure performed? Do you think it's right that we were sent on our merry way with no aftercare or support back home? Voting no essentially keeps that out of our grasp along with many others in the same situation as us.

Do you believe my partner committed a crime (moral or otherwise) in seeking an abortion for a baby she physically could not support due to something completely out of her control?

If your answer is a yes to those questions, you need to take a long hard look at your mindset before voting.

Repealing the 8th a long time ago would have meant herself could have received the appropriate amount of after care and support (physically and mentally) required.

it's a human being. right from the minute it begins developing. this cannot be disputed. the argument you are trying to have is about personhood.
your case is a medical case so should be facilitated in ireland. however, due to the proposals being put on the table by the government, to allow abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, there is no other option for me and many others but to vote no . a successful no vote if it happens, will ultimately prevent the proposal to allow abortion on demand up to 12 weeks from becoming a reality. for me and many others, abortion on demand is not an option, and we will not vote for anything that allows it, because the government had, and still have an opportunity to put forward proposals that we can vote on. the government have forced us to vote no
i don't need to take any look at my mindset. i'm happy with my view, i came to it via facts logic and general reality, from the pro-choice view i used to hold in my late teens early 20s. i realised that what i was defending, in supporting the availability to kill an unborn child for any reason, was wrong, and that the arguments i was defending just did not stack up when put to the test on various other issues. i realised they could be extended to issues i would disagree with. finding out the reality of what an abortion involves for the unborn was the final straw.
i'm ashamed that i supported the availability to kill the most innocent of society without any reason. i was wrong to do that. i am right however to support the availability of abortion in medically necessary circumstances, such as to save the mother's life, the threat of permanent injury or disability, FFA cases, among other medical reasons. these are necessary as while it will be aweful that the unborn will die, the reality is that if the mother sadly passes away, the unborn will pass away as well.
i'm very prowd and happy that i saw the reality. i'm not ashamed to be pro-life and never will be. i'm not ashamed that i value both mother and baby's lives. i made a mistake in believing what i believed. i was wrong.

end of the road wrote: »

it's a human being. right from the minute it begins developing. this cannot be disputed. the argument you are trying to have is about personhood.
your case is a medical case so should be facilitated in ireland. however, due to the proposals being put on the table by the government, to allow abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, there is no other option for me and many others but to vote no . a successful no vote if it happens, will ultimately prevent the proposal to allow abortion on demand up to 12 weeks from becoming a reality. for me and many others, abortion on demand is not an option, and we will not vote for anything that allows it, because the government had, and still have an opportunity to put forward proposals that we can vote on. the government have forced us to vote no
i don't need to take any look at my mindset. i'm happy with my view, i came to it via facts logic and general reality, from the pro-choice view i used to hold in my late teens early 20s. i realised that what i was defending, in supporting the availability to kill an unborn child for any reason, was wrong, and that the arguments i was defending just did not stack up when put to the test on various other issues. i realised they could be extended to issues i would disagree with. finding out the reality of what an abortion involves for the unborn was the final straw.
i'm ashamed that i supported the availability to kill the most innocent of society without any reason. i was wrong to do that. i am right however to support the availability of abortion in medically necessary circumstances, such as to save the mother's life, the threat of permanent injury or disability, FFA cases, among other medical reasons. these are necessary as while it will be aweful that the unborn will die, the reality is that if the mother sadly passes away, the unborn will pass away as well.
i'm very prowd and happy that i saw the reality. i'm not ashamed to be pro-life and never will be. i'm not ashamed that i value both mother and baby's lives. i made a mistake in believing what i believed. i was wrong.

I'm fairly certain every poster on boards would dispute that.

Have you got any factual evidence of this abortion on demand phrase?

You were previously challenged on your view that abortion is a form of birth control. I've yet to see factual rebuttals from you regarding this.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control this will help you greatly in defining what is and what is not a form of birth control.

Also -

end of the road wrote: »

the government have forced us to vote no

Nope, you're doing that well of your own accord.

By the way up until 8 weeks it's considered an embryo. Do you want to give an embryo more rights than an actual person standing in front of you?