Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

blanch152 · 20-03-2018 11:53AM

jm08 wrote: »

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

Is that the lame excuse being proffered by the Senator?

Or is it an invention of a poster on here?

eldamo · 20-03-2018 12:02PM

jm08 wrote: »

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

Other people where?
Reports are she defended it before deleting it.
If it was a misread a decent person would have acknowledged that straight away.

blanch152 · 20-03-2018 12:13PM

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/mary-lou-mcdonald-defends-suspension-handed-to-senator-over-stack-tweet-scandal-36723924.html

It seems that the Senator has got the full backing of her party leader who believes that the three-month holiday "was more than a "rap on the knuckles"".

I somehow doubt that the Stack family believe it to be more than a rap on the knuckles. Devine had the chance to retract when challenged by the Stacks, but she didn't, and actually defended her tweet.

Jawgap · 20-03-2018 12:21PM

jm08 wrote: »

And how was using the word of Gerry Adams going to prove it if the word of the Minister for Justice couldn't? Sounds like you have a problem with how the justice system works.

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

So, when I say......

Because, somewhat ironically, the perpetrators enjoy the protections of the Constitution they tried so diligently to subvert......so while the authorities may well know who did it, proving it in a court of law is, rightly, a different order of a challenge.

......you reckon I have a problem with how the justice system works??

Far from it.......I believe everyone deserves the protection afforded by the Constitution even if they have worked to subvert, or are part of or affiliated to an organisation that employs kangaroo courts.

Are you suggesting, btw, that senator is not responsible for their utterances?

Red_Wake · 20-03-2018 12:32PM

eldamo wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

Other people where?
Reports are she defended it before deleting it.
If it was a misread a decent person would have acknowledged that straight away.

I opined that it was possible that she only read the first part. However, knowing now that she defended it, it seems that I was mistaken.

Despicable behaviour that you could only expect from SF.

eldamo · 20-03-2018 12:39PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

I opined that it was possible that she only read the first part. However, knowing now that she defended it, it seems that I was mistaken.

Despicable behaviour that you could only expect from SF.

Sorry, I see that now.

It does appear that Mary Lou is done with the handing out of justice for now, so if this does escalate it will likely be up to Senator Devine to resign herself.

Missed opportunity.

jm08 · 20-03-2018 12:47PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Is that the lame excuse being proffered by the Senator?

Or is it an invention of a poster on here?

eldamo wrote: »

Other people where?
Reports are she defended it before deleting it.
If it was a misread a decent person would have acknowledged that straight away.

There are no excuses, just apologises.

From reading the full exchange in The Journal, her beef seems to have been with the SaveTheEight part with the reference to Brian Stack a bit hidden (clever by the tweeter).

http://www.thejournal.ie/maire-devine-brian-stack-3912533-Mar2018/

blanch152 · 20-03-2018 12:53PM

jm08 wrote: »

There are no excuses, just apologises.

From reading the full exchange in The Journal, her beef seems to have been with the SaveTheEight part with the reference to Brian Stack a bit hidden (clever by the tweeter).

http://www.thejournal.ie/maire-devine-brian-stack-3912533-Mar2018/

How do you explain this?

"Stack: ”So you obviously stand over that disgusting tweet then?”
Devine: ”I would review your “compassionate friends” a myriad of agendas – loss is personal and traumatic, its [sic] doesn’t belong to trolls. A conflict that lost many loved ones”"

charlie14 · 20-03-2018 01:00PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Neither FG nor FF were in existence during of immediately after the War of Independence or the Civil War.

Quite remarkable that SF regard this person as fit to be a public rep and, potentially, sit in scrutiny of Department of Justice and IPS.

I was not defending that SF senator. Merely pointing out that in the history of this state judicial murder has also been carried out.

FG and FF both have their roots in the War of Independence and even more so in the Civil War. Glorified by both and still a bone of contention among their hardcore supporters
To claim they have not is similar to claiming the present SF do not have their roots from the PIRA campaign.

blanch152 · 20-03-2018 01:06PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I was not defending that SF senator. Merely pointing out that in the history of this state judicial murder has also been carried out.

FG and FF both have their roots in the War of Independence and even more so in the Civil War. Glorified by both and still a bone of contention among their hardcore supporters
To claim they have not is similar to claiming the present SF do not have their roots from the PIRA campaign.

Nobody has ever claimed that FF and FG don't have their roots in the Civil War.

jm08 · 20-03-2018 01:12PM

blanch152 wrote: »

How do you explain this?

"Stack: ”So you obviously stand over that disgusting tweet then?”
Devine: ”I would review your “compassionate friends” a myriad of agendas – loss is personal and traumatic, its [sic] doesn’t belong to trolls. A conflict that lost many loved ones”"

By reading the full exchange on twitter:

Devine: Apologies for entire re-tweet – primary issue with Leo. #sensitivity

Stack: ”Senator how dare you speak of my father in those terms. You have brought great shame on the Oireachtas”

Devine: ”I bring no shame – I bring equality – especially in health and well-being. We can’t ever agree but can forge forward-Let’s leave it there”

Stack: ”So you obviously stand over that disgusting tweet then?”

Devine: ”I would review your “compassionate friends” a myriad of agendas – loss is personal and traumatic, its [sic] doesn’t belong to trolls. A conflict that lost many loved ones”

eldamo · 20-03-2018 01:23PM

jm08 wrote: »

By reading the full exchange on twitter:

Devine: Apologies for entire re-tweet – primary issue with Leo. #sensitivity

Stack: ”Senator how dare you speak of my father in those terms. You have brought great shame on the Oireachtas”

Devine: ”I bring no shame – I bring equality – especially in health and well-being. We can’t ever agree but can forge forward-Let’s leave it there”

Stack: ”So you obviously stand over that disgusting tweet then?”

Devine: ”I would review your “compassionate friends” a myriad of agendas – loss is personal and traumatic, its [sic] doesn’t belong to trolls. A conflict that lost many loved ones”

Care to provide any interpretation on the use of #sensitivity?

That is the bit that makes my skin crawl entirely...

but maybe you have some nice rationalization of it...

charlie14 · 20-03-2018 01:24PM

blanch152 wrote: »

If one fails to learn from history, one is doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Quoting a century-old precedent to support unacceptable behaviour in a modern day society is a pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible.

The behaviour of both sides in the Civil War would not be acceptable today.

If the history of conflict, not just in our own country but worldwide, has taught us anything is that to achieve peace by moving from conflict to politics there comes a time when a line has to be drawn underneath.
I am not saying that is right or wrong, but historically there has been no other way with conflict to achieve peace.
I do feel sorry for the Stack family in this. Same as I feel sorry for all sides who had family members murdered who feel they never received or are ever likely to achieved justice. But their are times that I have felt the Stack family are being used as political footballs

jm08 · 20-03-2018 01:32PM

eldamo wrote: »

Care to provide any interpretation on the use of #sensitivity?

That is the bit that makes my skin crawl entirely...

but maybe you have some nice rationalization of it...

She should have left it out, but if using that on twitter becomes a sackable offence, we will probably be left with no politicians.

eldamo · 20-03-2018 01:36PM

jm08 wrote: »

She should have left it out, but if using that on twitter becomes a sackable offence, we will probably be left with no politicians.

#sensitivity translation, your dad is dead, we killed him, build a bridge and get over it.
#joinsinnfein

ok, signing out of this thread before I lose my mind.

Some people can rationalize anything.

jm08 · 20-03-2018 01:47PM

eldamo wrote: »

#sensitivity translation, your dad is dead, we killed him, build a bridge and get over it.
#joinsinnfein

ok, signing out of this thread before I lose my mind.

Some people can rationalize anything.

Or look at the whole tweet:
Apologies for entire re-tweet – primary issue with Leo. #sensitivity

#sensitivity translation:

Devine says she wasn't attacking (or condoning the attack) the Stack family.

charlie14 · 20-03-2018 03:04PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody has ever claimed that FF and FG don't have their roots in the Civil War.

Jawgap appeared to be. Which was the post I was replying too

Red_Wake · 20-03-2018 04:11PM

charlie14 wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

If one fails to learn from history, one is doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Quoting a century-old precedent to support unacceptable behaviour in a modern day society is a pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible.

The behaviour of both sides in the Civil War would not be acceptable today.

If the history of conflict, not just in our own country but worldwide, has taught us anything is that to achieve peace by moving from conflict to politics there comes a time when a line has to be drawn underneath.
I am not saying that is right or wrong, but historically there has been no other way with conflict to achieve peace.
I do feel sorry for the Stack family in this. Same as I feel sorry for all sides who had family members murdered who feel they never received or are ever likely to achieved justice. But their are times that I have felt the Stack family are being used as political footballs

Isn't the flipside of this though that by not addressing either sides past misdeeds, it legitimises and strengthens the arguments of those on the opposite side who don't wish to make peace?

Jawgap · 20-03-2018 04:20PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Jawgap appeared to be. Which was the post I was replying too

Please read what's written, not what you'd like to be written.

FF and FG were not in existence at the time of the War of Independence and the Civil War......it's possible to construct a timeline to show they have roots in those and earlier conflicts, but the facts remains that neither were established until well afterwards.

James Brown · 20-03-2018 05:27PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Please read what's written, not what you'd like to be written.

FF and FG were not in existence at the time of the War of Independence and the Civil War......it's possible to construct a timeline to show they have roots in those and earlier conflicts, but the facts remains that neither were established until well afterwards.

If Sinn Fein change their name, is that an end to it?
The key difference between much of what people associated with FF/FG/SF carried out to push their agenda is that the IRA's SF associated actions are more recent. Mind, I also don't recall Sinn Fein claiming or taking credit for any killings.
Cameron wanted Mandela hung, but I suppose it depends on your politics, what outrages you and what doesn't.

Professor Moriarty · 20-03-2018 05:37PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If Sinn Fein change their name, is that an end to it?
The key difference between much of what people associated with FF/FG/SF carried out to push their agenda is that the IRA's SF associated actions are more recent. Mind, I also don't recall Sinn Fein claiming or taking credit for any killings.
Cameron wanted Mandela hung, but I suppose it depends on your politics, what outrages you and what doesn't.

I don't think this is true.

James Brown · 20-03-2018 05:52PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think this is true.

He was a leading member of the conservative group that produced the 'hang Mandela' posters.

Professor Moriarty · 20-03-2018 05:53PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He was a leading member of the conservative group that produced the 'hang mandela' posters.

No, he wasn't.

James Brown · 20-03-2018 05:54PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No, he wasn't.

Can you show that? If I'm mistaken, fair enough.

jm08 · 20-03-2018 05:59PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think this is true.

Its not, but a group called Federation of Conservative Students did put up posters and sold badges with ''Hang Nelson Mandela'' in the 1980s when Cameron was in university.

James Brown · 20-03-2018 06:01PM

He was a leading member. In fairness, let's leave the post;

If Sinn Fein change their name, is that an end to it?
The key difference between much of what people associated with FF/FG/SF carried out to push their agenda is that the IRA's SF associated actions are more recent. Mind, I also don't recall Sinn Fein claiming or taking credit for any killings.
Cameron wanted Mandela hung, but I suppose it depends on your politics, what outrages you and what doesn't.

Professor Moriarty · 20-03-2018 06:03PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can you show that? If I'm mistaken, fair enough.

Here's one. He was a student where a faction of Conservative student body created the teeshirts but wasn't even a member of the body at the time. Mind you, he opposed British sanctions against apartheid in SA.

Professor Moriarty · 20-03-2018 06:04PM

jm08 wrote: »

Its not, but a group called Federation of Conservative Students did put up posters and sold badges with ''Hang Nelson Mandela'' in the 1980s when Cameron was in university.

He wasn't even a member of the federation at the time. Just an ordinary student apparently.

Professor Moriarty · 20-03-2018 06:05PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He was a leading member. In fairness, let's leave the post;

No, he wasn't. Not at that time.

Jawgap · 20-03-2018 06:07PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If Sinn Fein change their name, is that an end to it?
The key difference between much of what people associated with FF/FG/SF carried out to push their agenda is that the IRA's SF associated actions are more recent. Mind, I also don't recall Sinn Fein claiming or taking credit for any killings.
Cameron wanted Mandela hung, but I suppose it depends on your politics, what outrages you and what doesn't.

I think the issue with the senator (and the ongoing issues with bullying as well as previous issues on child welfare) suggest more than a name change is needed.

This latest of a long line of own goals illustrates that the mindset hasn't changed.......it was a perfect opportunity for McDonald to demonstrate that a new era has dawned, instead she failed at the first hurdle. It's business as usual.

Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

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