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Route 139 Naas to Blanchardstown Launches 12th Mar

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    #32
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    When was that confirmed, hopefully it's not the case. I thought the NTA were working on prototype liveries with some buses in a new livery up in Wright's in Ballymena.

    All deliveries for Dublin Bus this year are to be in Dublin Bus livery. They've already started rolling off the production line in Ballymena and more are currently in build. The ones in a different livery are for Go-Ahead from what I've been told but even that livery isn't signed off yet fully.

    Believe there is no agreement between DB and NTA about any livery change going forward, so I can't see DB adopting any new livery until 2019 deliveries at the earliest.


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    #33
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    devnull wrote: »
    Really the NTA should have required it as part of the contract.

    The biggest disappointment with this service is that it does not appear that well integrated into the transport network. It's not even listed on the JJK site and from what I have seen it just has a regular JJ Kavanagh livery on it.

    With Go-Ahead getting vehicles in one livery and Dublin Bus staying with their existing livery as well, there are signs that all may not be well with the NTA's plans to integrate services together since everything still feels fragmented.

    I really expected to see some better integration or signs of it by now.

    I drove a lot of the route today. There are no new bus stops or signage at existing bus stops.

    I really think they don't want this route to be a success.


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    #34
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    It is pretty poor - JJ Kavanagh themselves have not really mentioned it either.

    This is relatively simple in relation to what the NTA will need to deal with later in the year.


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    #35
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I don't see why this route wasn't put as part of the GA tender. I don't mind operators owning their own buses but they should have to meet standards set by the NTA similar to the standards that TFL BOCS have to meet when buying new buses regarding displays, middle doors and maintence etc.


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    #36
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Stephen15 wrote:
    I don't see why this route wasn't put as part of the GA tender. I don't mind operators owning their own buses but they should have to meet standards set by the NTA similar to the standards that TFL BOCS have to meet when buying new buses regarding displays, middle doors and maintence etc.

    It's not a Dublin area service as such.


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    #37
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Seems a lot of their buses are not even left back to a garage when finished. You often see them parked in residential housing estates at night. Commercial vehicles like that should not be parked outside drivers houses. Not sure how they can maintain a fleet like that.


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    #38
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    All deliveries for Dublin Bus this year are to be in Dublin Bus livery. They've already started rolling off the production line in Ballymena and more are currently in build. The ones in a different livery are for Go-Ahead from what I've been told but even that livery isn't signed off yet fully.

    Believe there is no agreement between DB and NTA about any livery change going forward, so I can't see DB adopting any new livery until 2019 deliveries at the earliest.

    The issue of the NTA introducing a new livery (or branding) is of course one for it alone.

    However,as an authority which espouses a new commercially focused and customer centric method of operation,it must also be aware that Commercial Considerations can also be applied to the value of the Current Dominant Operator's branding.

    The Bus Atha Cliath chairman has already given clear indication to the Oireachtas of his companys intention to protect these assets.

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2017-10-25a.1210&s=Ultan+Courtney#g1214
    Mr. Ultan Courtney:

    As with Mr. Murphy, I do not think there is any issue in Dublin Bus with regard to gender and pay. Pay is based on grade. The last senior appointment we had was a lady to the chief financial officer's position. Unfortunately, we took it from Mr. Murphy's organisation. We take the best people wherever we can find them.

    The situation with property is quite similar. We have the garages and so on but we have absolutely no plans to divest ourselves of them because they are part of our strategic investment in the Dublin area. They are very important to how we provide services across the city. Outside of that, I am not aware of any other property we will be disposing of. It is under the control of CIE group property division.

    The Senator asked a very interesting question about the NTA, buses and branding and so on. It is a very important question because it comes down to the whole idea of what kind of bus company we want in Dublin. Dublin Bus will be there for some considerable time regardless of what policy changes are made. The question always arises about the nature of it. The Dublin Bus brand is very important to us and we use it in all our marketing. People talk about livery but we never do. Instead we talk about branding, marketing and positioning. It is very important to us to protect that brand and it is very important it is there into the future. What happened in London is often cited.

    They had different operators but kept the red buses. My humble submission is that whatever changes happen, please keep the Dublin Bus colours. They are very important to the company, and are also a very valuable asset to the State. It is valued at €28 million and could go up over the next few years, depending on expansion, to €33 million.

    We are talking about the efficient use of assets. An asset of the State cannot just be given away. It is important to protect the brand, and one of the principal duties of the board is to protect the assets of the State and get the maximum value for them. Notwithstanding that, we have been engaged with the NTA. Dublin Bus has been driving this, because it has the expertise in branding. It set up a brand room, which everyone, including Ministers and officials from the Department, wanted to see, showing what a new branding concept for Dublin Bus, which would protect the brand and the value that it has, would look like, and presented the idea of a new, innovative and modern service. Dublin Bus is not afraid of change or of looking at branding, but it is going to protect its assets.

    As is now evident from the route 139 Introduction,the NTA appears to have a bit more research & development to do in this area before embarking on any further large-scale changes.

    The current College Green debacle serves to remind us of just how easy it is to totally destroy systems and services by the sole expedient of Failing to Prepare.

    I am quite surprised,and somewhat sad,to see the 139 being given such a flaky start,as both the service AND it's intended customers surely deserve better ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #39
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    With the lack of advertising, signage and rtpi has anyone even been using the service?


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    #40
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Local media coverage, ITB social media coverage, Facebook geofenced ads (so non locals won't see them) - it hasn't been snuck in unannounced


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    #41
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    L1011 wrote: »
    Local media coverage, ITB social media coverage, Facebook geofenced ads (so non locals won't see them) - it hasn't been snuck in unannounced

    And various local politicians are claiming credit. Though I think the only people actually using it are students in Naas attending ITB. I'll give it a try in Leixlip this weekend, but the maximum I'm prepared to wait is 15 minutes from the scheduled time.


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    #42
    tnegun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭tnegun


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    With the lack of advertising, signage and rtpi has anyone even been using the service?

    Passed one about 6 this evening in Leixlip it was Blanchardstown bound with 2 passangers.


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    #43
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The worst thing is that even if someone sees the bus and thinks, hey, maybe I should look up the operator website and find info on that service, it's no use because JJ Kavanagh haven't even mentioned it.

    Really the lack of information in obvious places is unforgivable.


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    #44
    tnegun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭tnegun


    Even the destination board spends 50% of the time dispaying JJ Kavanagh as if having ot plastered all over the bus wasn't enough. Can it stop anywhere of does it have to use regular bus stops?


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    #45
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Everything about this seems rather bizarre. Why was a new route only announced a week before it started usually 3 weeks to a months notice would be given before a new route begins operating after the initial annoucement was made public and also why weren't stops put in place before it began operating.


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    #46
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Everything about this seems rather bizarre. Why was a new route only announced a week before it started usually 3 weeks to a months notice would be given before a new route begins operating after the initial annoucement was made public and also why weren't stops put in place before it began operating.

    The norm on contracts such as this,is that a date is specified for the commencement of service,with penalties should that date be missed.

    However,as the actual contract remains unavailable,anything posted here is pure conjecture.

    It would appear that the NTA is going down the FoI road on documentation availability,which is a hugely retrograde step for a new Regulator to take ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #47
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    tnegun wrote: »
    Even the destination board spends 50% of the time dispaying JJ Kavanagh as if having ot plastered all over the bus wasn't enough. Can it stop anywhere of does it have to use regular bus stops?

    No-one really seems to know. I asked the NTA what stops is it using (i.e. DB where available? And what if not?) and the question was ignored.


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    #48
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    I saw my first one of these buses this morning. At 9:32 the bus scheduled for 9:38 passed the Leixlip Captain's Hill stop :eek::eek:


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    #49
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭thomasj


    n97 mini wrote:
    I saw my first one of these buses this morning. At 9:32 the bus scheduled for 9:38 passed the Leixlip Captain's Hill stop

    Hence the need for rtpi


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    #50
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    After seeing now that Go-Ahead got the contract for 6 BE routes in the Eastern Region it seems bizarre that the NTA would give this contract to JJK and not GA as part of the contract. GA will probably be a far better than JJK and they will be more accountable to the NTA than JJK as the NTA will own their buses and they will have RTPI.


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    #51
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Has anything improved regarding this route?

    JJ Kavanagh are still not mentioning it on their website and I can only conclude they are not bothered about advertising it, probably because they get paid the same amount of money regardless of how many passengers use it.

    Do the NTA not have some contractual rights to enforce proper service information provision on their contractor? If not, why not?


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    #52
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Looking through JJK's Facebook page, I see an unanswered post from Aidan Jordan (of the Jordan Driving School) regarding the weight of the bus exceeding the 3.5T Max Weight signs at Cope Bridge in Leixlip.

    In terms of the new service being announced on Facebook, JJK's only seemed to share a post by the Lovin Dublin page.


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    #53
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Anpost posted a card in my door today from TFI showing the route on a map. Naas area.


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    #54
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    devnull wrote: »
    Has anything improved regarding this route?

    JJ Kavanagh are still not mentioning it on their website and I can only conclude they are not bothered about advertising it, probably because they get paid the same amount of money regardless of how many passengers use it.

    Do the NTA not have some contractual rights to enforce proper service information provision on their contractor? If not, why not?

    No, there is still no information on any bus stops, and buses are still turning up early. Local councillors and politicians are all claiming credit for it, but are strangely quiet when it's pointed out to them that the lack of information makes the service almost unusable.

    I got the bus yesterday from the Blanchardstown centre. They're very nice, brand new and shiny. The driver has a thing like a tablet for ticketing and he has to hold your Leap card up against the back of it. The whole process of buying a ticket is painfully slow. It took 2-3 minutes to board 4 people with Leap cards. And... even though the stop is 4 minutes from the terminus it still managed to arrive 2 minutes early.


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    #55
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    There is little untoward about the vehicles being owned by the tender winner,as the process allows for this,Go-Ahead,for example could have submitted a tender based upon them supplying buses to the NTA spec,but instead chose to base their tender upon the vehicles being supplied by the tendering agency.

    The tender specifically stated buses would be supplied by the NTA, GA never had this option.


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    #56
    tnegun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭tnegun


    Have seen one waiting at the Dublin bus stop outside Carton (Naas bound) a couple of times so looks like they are trying to keep to the timetable. Still difficult to find info on the service and ridership looks low anytime I've seen them.


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    #57
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    JJ Kavanagh are still not mentioning it on their website and I can only conclude they are not bothered about advertising it, probably because they get paid the same amount of money regardless of how many passengers use it.

    Do the NTA not have some contractual rights to enforce proper service information provision on their contractor? If not, why not?

    Article 15.7 of the contract for the 139 route states:-
    You shall:

    (a) provide a public portal on the internet (the ― 'Website') in connection with the Services where information regarding the Services, the Route, the Fares, the Stopping Places, your points of contact and our points of contact and the Timetable can be accessed from the commencement of the provision of the Services to the expiry of the Services Period.

    (b) obtain our prior approval to the content and layout of the Website.


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    #58
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    Article 15.7 of the contract for the 139 route states:-

    So basically JJ Kavanagh haven't delivered what they were supposed to in time.

    Now perhaps there was a delay that they have communicated with the NTA, but in the meantime surely they could still update their existing website with a link to the timetable or post about it on Facebook if nothing else?

    Is there anything in the contract about livery or branding?


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    #59
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    Is there anything in the contract about livery or branding?

    It would appear not.


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    #60
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    devnull wrote: »
    So basically JJ Kavanagh haven't delivered what they were supposed to in time.

    Now perhaps there was a delay that they have communicated with the NTA, but in the meantime surely they could still update their existing website with a link to the timetable or post about it on Facebook if nothing else?

    Is there anything in the contract about livery or branding?

    Section b indicates content requires approval. A lack of content doesn't mean something was not submit.


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    #61
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Weight limit on Cope Bridge and the bus being rather heavier is on the front page of the Champion this week


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