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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #662
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    amdublin wrote: »
    While I am happy about that result of the poll on this thread. And of course I am happy with trolls who are here not not discuss but to simply em troll being banned. However sometimes I worry I am surrounded by too many of my friends who are pro choice and pro repeal.

    What I am trying to say is that sometimes I worry I am discussing #repealthe8th in an echo chamber.

    So that's why I find it really useful to hear some of the "stuff" posters like ismisejack, robertkk, graces7, outlaw pete et al are saying.
    I am hoping they and their views are in the minority.

    But! It does show we cannot be complacent. I am attending my first repeal canvass group this week or next week (my night college schedule is in the way) and I determined to get out on the doorsteps and have conversations with people.
    I'm wearing my repeal jumper as much as possible. And I'm doing a good bit of tweeting and blogging.

    Anyone else got anything going on to stop the complacency setting in?!

    Are you in Dublin West?


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    #663
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    In fairness, there are many women who are also against abortion in the case of rape.

    Seen the following trailer recently and in it you see many of those who have even been conceived in rape speak out against abortion too.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzzazuO8my4



    I personally feel it should be legal for a woman to have an abortion if they are pregnant from rape, as I don't feel it's right that someone should be made to carry a baby which has resulted from a violent act......... but, I do feel the views of these people at least deserve to be listened to and considered by people before they decide which way it is they want to vote. Have an opinion, by all means, but make it an informed one.

    That's what we're all trying to achieve here Pete but like amdublin has mentioned, we've been inundated with trolls making wild and outrageous claims and statements so that does make it difficult to have an informed discussion because we have to filter out the trolls to try find the genuine pieces of conversation.

    I respect the fact you feel it should be legal for a woman to have an abortion if they are pregnant from rape and I applaud the fact you've come out and said you don't feel it's right that someone should be made to carry a baby which has resulted from such a violent act. It shows that you do have empathy and can actually see the points we are trying to make and I'm sure that what you've said there will be appreciated by us all from pro-choice.


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    #664
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,650 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    January wrote: »
    Are you in Dublin West?

    Not any more :)

    I'm in Dublin city


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    #665
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    amdublin wrote: »
    Not any more :)

    I'm in Dublin city

    Ah! Was going to say we are heading out this afternoon for a canvas.

    Can't wait :)


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    #666
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,650 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Good luck!!! And enjoy

    You might report back what areas you covered and what the feeling is, and what stats you come up with (during the marriage equality canvass each person would record their y's, n's and undecideds and report back to the coordinator at the end).

    Fair play to you!


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    #667
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    I personally feel it should be legal for a woman to have an abortion if they are pregnant from rape, as I don't feel it's right that someone should be made to carry a baby which has resulted from a violent act.........
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    It shows that you do have empathy and can actually see the points we are trying to make and I'm sure that what you've said there will be appreciated by us all from pro-choice.

    We can appreciate it for sure, but we then also have to translate it into functional suggestions. And alas that is when we hit something of a wall.

    To allow women in the case of rape to access abortion, we would have to have some method of ascertaining she WAS actually raped. This is not so easy to do in a way that would meaningfully and realistically gel with allowing abortion.

    We could have rape interrogations, forcing the women to relive the experience to some kind of "panel" (which one user suggested on this thread) but that is horrific. And working it around prosecutions or seeking prosecutions for rape have problems of their own.

    Or we could simply take women's word for it which would, functionally at least, mean we essentially have choice based abortion anyway.

    So other than simply giving ALL women the choice to abort as and when they want within a certain time frame........ I see no coherent way to actually offer raped women what is described here.
    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    I do feel the views of these people at least deserve to be listened to and considered by people before they decide which way it is they want to vote. Have an opinion, by all means, but make it an informed one.

    And I just listened to them and considered their words. And I get two main things from it:

    1) There are women who were raped and CHOSE to continue with the pregnancy. And that is EXACTLY what people discussing rape mean when they speak on abortion. They are not saying fetuses from rape should be aborted. They are saying the mother should have that choice. So your video agrees with me here.

    2) There are people saying essentially "I am alive today because my mother was raped" but that falls foul of the same response I gave to IsMiseJack just above a couple of posts ago. So perhaps you could read over that too.

    If there is another 3rd or 4th or more point(s) you were hoping would come out of watching that video for consideration then I am all ears as I have missed it. Because otherwise I would change your post above to this:

    "I do feel the views of these people at least deserve to be listened to and considered by people before they decide to abort. Have an abortion, by all means, but make it an informed one."

    Because your video supports THAT paragraph, as voting to allow abortion is to give EXACTLY the choice to the mothers speaking in that video that many of them exercised.


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    #668
    MilesMorales1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,431 ✭✭✭MilesMorales1


    I do think its easy to get in an echo chamber of sorts with these thoughts yes. Like I'm pro choice, most of the people I know to discuss this with are, but judging by some of the looks and comments I've had when wearing my repeal t shirt in Dublin City centre (maybe its just strange to see a bloke wearing it) these thoughts aren't universal.

    Which is fine, I'd never not want someone to express their opinion on these things. I just disagree with people disagreeing with literal facts, or claiming that their morals or opinions represent facts, or they try and make it an overly emotional moral issue. Not that abortion isn't a moral issue (clearly)


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    #669
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    MilesMorales1 wrote: »
    I do think its easy to get in an echo chamber of sorts with these thoughts yes. Like I'm pro choice, most of the people I know to discuss this with are, but judging by some of the looks and comments I've had when wearing my repeal t shirt in Dublin City centre (maybe its just strange to see a bloke wearing it) these thoughts aren't universal.

    Which is fine, I'd never not want someone to express their opinion on these things. I just disagree with people disagreeing with literal facts, or claiming that their morals or opinions represent facts, or they try and make it an overly emotional moral issue. Not that abortion isn't a moral issue (clearly)

    I have repeal the 8th badges on my backpack and 3 times someone has tried to rip them off. Each time happened in Dublin and once was as I was walking by a group handing out anti choice leaflets outside of the Bank of Ireland on College Green.

    I am all for reasonable civilised intelligent discussion but "you're wrong and I'm right because this is how I feel" isn't conducive to healthy debate.


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    #670
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    35 years ago today, Sheila Hodgers died a horrific death because of the belief that the foetus has an equal right to life than that of the mother. Just 6 months after her death, the 8th was voted in.

    Just as a warning, this may be a difficult read for people:
    "Sheila lived in Dundalk with her husband, Brendan. They had two daughters, aged eight and seven. They were considering trying for a third child when Sheila discovered a lump on her breast. After a mastectomy, however, she got better. With the help of cytotoxic drugs, her cancer was kept at bay.

    Until, that is, she became pregnant. Her medication was stopped, for fear that it would harm the foetus in her womb. She developed severe lumbar pain, indicating a tumour on her back. But this could not be fully confirmed because the hospital would not take an X-ray.

    Brendan Hodgers asked that a Caesarean section be performed on his wife, so that she could return to her cancer treatment immediately. The request was refused. She was admitted to Our Lady of Lourdes in agony. As Brendan Hodgers subsequently recalled: "She was literally screaming at this stage. I could hear her from the front door of the hospital, and she was in a ward on the fourth floor."

    Sheila Hodgers was eventually moved to the maternity ward. On March 16th, 1983, she went into labour two months prematurely and was delivered of a baby girl the next day. The child died almost immediately after birth. Mrs Hodgers died two days later. She had tumours on her neck, spine and legs."


    https://www.facebook.com/RepealTheEighth/photos/a.142348133106279.1073741828.142243109783448/156362455038180/?type=3&theater


    Yes, now we have the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Act, but that was only introduced in 2013. The thinking and mentality behind the 8th has been the cause of some horrendous deaths over the years. If you can read stories like that, and all the other stories and remember there's only been some half arsed attempts so far (in direct response to something horrible happening) to fix the problems the 8th has caused... and you still think it's a good idea to keep the 8th, then how can you call yourself pro-life? How, when the only reason anything changes (even if the change is sticking a plaster over a wound that needs stitches) is when something horrid happens? The 8th is and always has been a dangerous piece of legislation and I refuse to think of those who support it as being pro-life. How many people have to die a painful death before you start thinking "hey, you know what, maybe the 8th isn't such a great idea after all"?


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    #671
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/british-hospital-cuts-abortion-services-to-irish-women-1.3431919

    British hospital cuts abortion services to Irish women.

    As reported by TFMR last week it has now reached the media that Liverpool Women's hospital have had to cut back its services for Irish women travelling there with FFA pregnancies.

    It was only a matter of time, the hospitals in Britain who provide these services for families in Ireland shouldn't have to do this. We should be able to make these choices and be cared for in our own country.


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    #672
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    That's an awful pity
    The Liverpool Women’s NHS Foundation Trust has limited services to those between 16 and 20 weeks pregnant whose babies have been diagnosed with having a chromosome abnormality.

    This period is problematic as it comes before anomaly scans are usually carried out in Ireland – generally at about 20 weeks – potentially identifying problems including structural conditions such as absent kidneys, heart defects and anencephaly.


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    #673
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    35 years ago today, Sheila Hodgers died a horrific death because of the belief that the foetus has an equal right to life than that of the mother. Just 6 months after her death, the 8th was voted in.

    Just as a warning, this may be a difficult read for people:




    https://www.facebook.com/RepealTheEighth/photos/a.142348133106279.1073741828.142243109783448/156362455038180/?type=3&theater


    Yes, now we have the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Act, but that was only introduced in 2013. The thinking and mentality behind the 8th has been the cause of some horrendous deaths over the years. If you can read stories like that, and all the other stories and remember there's only been some half arsed attempts so far (in direct response to something horrible happening) to fix the problems the 8th has caused... and you still think it's a good idea to keep the 8th, then how can you call yourself pro-life? How, when the only reason anything changes (even if the change is sticking a plaster over a wound that needs stitches) is when something horrid happens? The 8th is and always has been a dangerous piece of legislation and I refuse to think of those who support it as being pro-life. How many people have to die a painful death before you start thinking "hey, you know what, maybe the 8th isn't such a great idea after all"?

    Yes but the child died almost immediately after birth, that means it lived for a bit and had a chance to breath. Totally worth it. Remember it is life at any cost (including where the cost is the life, health or dignity of the incubator), irrespective of quality of life.

    MrP


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    #674
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    erica74 wrote: »
    That's an awful pity

    And even if they can detect heart problems, absent kidneys or anencephaly before the 20 weeks scan they'll only support women in the case of a pregnancy with chromosomal abnormalities such as trisomy 18.


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    #675
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Yes but the child died almost immediately after birth, that means it lived for a bit and had a chance to breath. Totally worth it. Remember it is life at any cost (including where the cost is the life, health or dignity of the incubator), irrespective of quality of life.

    MrP

    The worst of it is, it took me until the third line to realize you were joking because it would not surprise me in the slightest that someone would think that way.


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    #676
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    The worst of it is, it took me until the third line to realize you were joking because it would not surprise me in the slightest that someone would think that way.

    Same.


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    #677
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    The worst of it is, it took me until the third line to realize you were joking because it would not surprise me in the slightest that someone would think that way.

    There are a great many people that do think that way and have said as much many times in many threads on this issue.


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    #678
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    david75 wrote: »
    There are a great many people that do think that way and have said as much many times in many threads on this issue.

    Yes, someone that was recently banned pretty much said even couple of breaths for the child was worth putting the mother through the pain and anguish of carrying a child she new could not survive.

    MrP


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    #679
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Great work here.

    https://twitter.com/doctors4choice/status/974978519141937152?s=21


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    #680
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    @Ave Sodalis, I won’t quote the whole post but the Sheila Hodgers case always gives me a lump in my throat.
    What happened to her could happen to any woman, and that’s the most frightening part.
    Such a waste of life, an absolute tragedy for her and for her husband and children.
    We completely failed her as a country. It cannot happen again.


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    #681
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Yes, someone that was recently banned pretty much said even couple of breaths for the child was worth putting the mother through the pain and anguish of carrying a child she new could not survive.

    MrP

    Completely disregarding the fact that the innocent child may suffer pain too in those couple of breaths. Literally a lifetime of pain for the child they are claiming to care about.


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    #682
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    See those types of posts a lot and the disconnect in rational thinking and empathy is immeasurable. They literally do not care that the baby too is in agony and about to die. Just as long as it’s alive for that little while.
    Appalling.


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    #683
    seenitall
    Registered Users Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭seenitall


    david75 wrote: »
    See those types of posts a lot and the disconnect in rational thinking and empathy is immeasurable. They literally do not care that the baby too is in agony and about to die. Just as long as it’s alive for that little while.
    Appalling.

    That's because it's not about anyone's actual lives, whether babies', "babies'", or women's ones.

    It's about control. Compassion for anyone simply doesn't come into it.


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    #684
    Undividual
    Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭Undividual


    I'm undecided on the issue.

    I recently watched a Ben Shapiro video where he argued that this debate essentially boils down to whether you believe the unborn child/fetus has rights. As such, he believes that a 'woman's right' is not a sufficient case for violating the rights of the unborn. It seems this is an accurate assessment of the polarizing nature of this debate in general and its unfortunate that people can't find more common ground through debate.

    I think that legalizing abortion would likely bring a different sub-set of problems (such as gender preference and a potential diminishment of sexual responsibility), which may be preferable to our current situation, but I do not hear discussion about any resulting social outcomes in the mainstream media. I think there is a scary amount of self-censorship when it comes to this issue. I believe this suits the repeal movement at the minute as it appears popular sentiment supports them.

    And yes, this is my first post so I'm obviously a Vatican agent.


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    #685
    Madscientist30
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Madscientist30


    david75 wrote: »
    See those types of posts a lot and the disconnect in rational thinking and empathy is immeasurable. They literally do not care that the baby too is in agony and about to die. Just as long as it’s alive for that little while.
    Appalling.
    I hadnt heard about Sheila Hodges before, a truly devastating story, what absolute horrible suffering for any family to go through. Given the mentality of the time, you cant help but wonder how many other cases there were like this that never made the papers because people were afraid to speak out or maybe the family around the woman were pro-life and felt it was the right way to proceed.


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    #686
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    And here’s Breda O Brien today saying it isn’t all that bad and can the poor 12 year old not just carry the baby to term?

    I will never understand these people.

    “Children should not have to have children, especially after rape. But the younger a child, the less likely she would be to be able to rationalise an abortion, no matter how great the initial relief. Even a rapist does not receive the death penalty. Could a little child cope with 20 more weeks, in order to possibly save two lives?”

    Whole article is here but prepare to be appalled
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/despite-some-awful-dilemmas-abortion-is-not-an-option-1.727607


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    #687
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Undividual wrote: »
    I recently watched a Ben Shapiro video where he argued that this debate essentially boils down to whether you believe the unborn child/fetus has rights. As such, he believes that a 'woman's right' is not a sufficient case for violating the rights of the unborn.

    Easy for him to say.
    as a woman I find it extremely I insulting & I feel like a second class citizens, that I am not more important than a foetus.


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    #688
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    david75 wrote: »
    And here’s Breda O Brien today saying it isn’t all that bad and can the poor 12 year old not just carry the baby to term?

    I will never understand these people.

    “Children should not have to have children, especially after rape. But the younger a child, the less likely she would be to be able to rationalise an abortion, no matter how great the initial relief. Even a rapist does not receive the death penalty. Could a little child cope with 20 more weeks, in order to possibly save two lives?”

    Whole article is here but prepare to be appalled
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/despite-some-awful-dilemmas-abortion-is-not-an-option-1.727607

    Absolutely disgusting but I'd expect nothing more from Breda.


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    #689
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,865 ✭✭✭✭January


    Undividual wrote: »
    I'm undecided on the issue.

    I recently watched a Ben Shapiro video where he argued that this debate essentially boils down to whether you believe the unborn child/fetus has rights. As such, he believes that a 'woman's right' is not a sufficient case for violating the rights of the unborn. It seems this is an accurate assessment of the polarizing nature of this debate in general and its unfortunate that people can't find more common ground through debate.

    I think that legalizing abortion would likely bring a different sub-set of problems (such as gender preference and a potential diminishment of sexual responsibility), which may be preferable to our current situation, but I do not hear discussion about any resulting social outcomes in the mainstream media. I think there is a scary amount of self-censorship when it comes to this issue. I believe this suits the repeal movement at the minute as it appears popular sentiment supports them.

    And yes, this is my first post so I'm obviously a Vatican agent.

    Which possible social outcomes concern you?


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    #690
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    david75 wrote: »
    And here’s Breda O Brien today saying it isn’t all that bad and can the poor 12 year old not just carry the baby to term?

    I will never understand these people.

    “Children should not have to have children, especially after rape. But the younger a child, the less likely she would be to be able to rationalise an abortion, no matter how great the initial relief. Even a rapist does not receive the death penalty. Could a little child cope with 20 more weeks, in order to possibly save two lives?”

    Whole article is here but prepare to be appalled
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/despite-some-awful-dilemmas-abortion-is-not-an-option-1.727607

    Just FYI, she actually wrote that piece back in 2009. Although that doesn't change how horrible a sentiment it contains.


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    #691
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Kurtosis wrote: »
    Just FYI, she actually wrote that piece back in 2009. Although that doesn't change how horrible a sentiment it contains.

    Didn’t catch that thanks. It’s on a few notable twitter accounts today none saying when it’s from but I guess it’s irrelevant when. It’s appalling either way.


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