Off Topic Thread 4.0

stephen_n · 16-03-2018 11:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’d imagine they want to hear that they can all invest here for absolutely nothing, and we’ll throw money and shamrocks and pots of gold at them.

That doesn’t mean we should do it for them.

Do you have a viable alternative to FDI, or are you just another hurler on the Ditch?

16-03-2018 11:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

None of those things are remotely the same.

The government should facilitate the private sector where it suits the Irish people, not take their orders from it. That’s exactly what has happened here.

Telling stories about stepping in on top of a renewable energy program at the behest of a foreign billionaire has embarrassed a lot of people. You’d think a minister for tourism would have better judgement, but I suppose he hasn’t really shown that in his other briefs either. It may not have embarrassed you, fair play, but it’s headline news for a reason and has completely undermined the trip.

The Americans probably won’t bat an eye because their system is completely under the thumb of the private sector. Ours shouldn’t be though and the leader of our government has let us down by trying to paint the picture that it is.

It's headline news because people love to complain about the Government, warranted or not. It will sell papers and clicks regardless of whether the accusations have substance.

And the government was facilitating the Irish people. Everyone employed in Dunbeg along with the other local businesses that benefit from the Tourism.

I can't stand Trump and I'm no fan of Leo but this is a laughable and petty attempt to create news. For all we know Leo asked the planning authority to consider local tourism in their decision. As minister for Tourism that is his brief.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 11:21AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No one is remotely surprised that ministers get involved. Obviously they shouldn’t be getting involved if they were following the rules as has been pointed out this morning, but we know they are.

Is this a first? :pac:

Zzippy · 16-03-2018 11:22AM

Is this the randomly capitalised Words thread now?

Buer · 16-03-2018 11:23AM

It was a stupid thing to say in that environment. He was desperate to ingratiate himself to Trump and it didn't play well.

Much ado about nothing but silly decision to tell that anecdote when he knew every word and move was going to be scrutinised.

Along with his simpering offer to learn to play golf and his use of the word "p*sstake", I found his performance yesterday a bit cringeworthy. He's young and he'll improve; Kenny was far more polished at this stuff.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:25AM

stephen_n wrote: »

Do you have a viable alternative to FDI, or are you just another hurler on the Ditch?

What are you on about? Have I said we should just scrap foreign investment somewhere and just forgotten that I wrote it?

This is a case where a locally owned company invested a lot of money into renewable energy and were directly opposed, off the books, by a minister under the orders of a foreign owned golf course. Do you have an alternative for developing Irish business? Do you have an alternative for renewable energy? Or is a foreign owned golf course more important to the nation?

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:26AM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Is this a first? :pac:

Autocorrect must be broken

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:29AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's headline news because people love to complain about the Government, warranted or not. It will sell papers and clicks regardless of whether the accusations have substance.

And the government was facilitating the Irish people. Everyone employed in Dunbeg along with the other local businesses that benefit from the Tourism.

I can't stand Trump and I'm no fan of Leo but this is a laughable and petty attempt to create news. For all we know Leo asked the planning authority to consider local tourism in their decision. As minister for Tourism that is his brief.

I’d be interested to know how installing wind farms would affect tourism negatively. Particularly in contrast to the benefit of renewable energy on our environment and it’s benefit to our tourism industry. Where are you getting that information from?

I’m sure Leo had a very thorough report done on that before inserting himself into the situation.

Zzippy · 16-03-2018 11:31AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’d be interested to know how installing wind farms would affect tourism negatively. Particularly in contrast to the benefit of renewable energy on our environment and it’s benefit to our tourism industry. Where are you getting that information from?

I’m sure Leo had a very thorough report done on that before inserting himself into the situation.

A large proportion of people consider wind turbines a blight on the landscape. Whether you agree or not, it's not hard to see how that would affect tourism.

Podge_irl · 16-03-2018 11:33AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What are you on about? Have I said we should just scrap foreign investment somewhere and just forgotten that I wrote it?

This is a case where a locally owned company invested a lot of money into renewable energy and were directly opposed, off the books, by a minister under the orders of a foreign owned golf course. Do you have an alternative for developing Irish business? Do you have an alternative for renewable energy? Or is a foreign owned golf course more important to the nation?

Under the orders :rolleyes:

He was the Minister for Tourism. He received concerns from the owner of a large tourist business and made some inquiries to help alleviate his concerns. I have little doubt the Minister for the Environment was pushing the planning permission for another private company.

16-03-2018 11:34AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What are you on about? Have I said we should just scrap foreign investment somewhere and just forgotten that I wrote it?

This is a case where a locally owned company invested a lot of money into renewable energy and were directly opposed, off the books, by a minister under the orders of a foreign owned golf course. Do you have an alternative for developing Irish business? Do you have an alternative for renewable energy? Or is a foreign owned golf course more important to the nation?

Lol, "won't somebody please think of the wind farms..."

These projects fail planning permission all the time. Sure the people before profit were against wind farms in the south east and campaigned against them for years.

A tourism minister passed along a concern of a large local employer to the planning authority. Honestly relax with the melodrama a bit IBF, it only serves to characterise the position you came to this debate with.

The planning failed on environmental grounds.

Faux outrage at it's finest.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:35AM

Zzippy wrote: »

A large proportion of people consider wind turbines a blight on the landscape. Whether you agree or not, it's not hard to see how that would affect tourism.

I’m fully aware of that.

What is the impact of non-renewable energy on our landscape, long-term?

On another note, I’ve always wondered if renewable energy is a necessary long term alternative, why aren’t we working with Irish companies to try to improve the appearance of wind farms? Wonder if there’s an avenue for that, do they have to be big ugly white things in order to work?!

16-03-2018 11:36AM

Zzippy wrote: »

A large proportion of people consider wind turbines a blight on the landscape. Whether you agree or not, it's not hard to see how that would affect tourism.

I think more to the point is if the owner/prospective owner/developer of <tourism thing> decides they aren't going to invest in areas near them.

I'd be interested to know the impact of wind farms on the Irish economy. The turbines aren't built here, the expertise in building farms isn't here, it doesn't take too many people to maintain a farm (these would be the only permanent Irish jobs really), and the power generated from them is subsidised by the State.

On the other hand you should have positive impacts on the environment which are hard to quantify.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

On another note, I’ve always wondered if renewable energy is a necessary long term alternative, why aren’t we working with Irish companies to try to improve the appearance of wind farms? Wonder if there’s an avenue for that, do they have to be big ugly white things in order to work?!

Are you talking about fundementally changing the shape of them or what? It's been tried and it's not feasible.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:38AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Under the orders :rolleyes:

He was the Minister for Tourism. He received concerns from the owner of a large tourist business and made some inquiries to help alleviate his concerns. I have little doubt the Minister for the Environment was pushing the planning permission for another private company.

He was under the orders. He specifically spoke about how direct Trump was in their conversations.

Does anyone really think the conversation was Trump voicing his concerns?! This is Donald Trump we’re talking about, there’s quite a bit of coverage of him in the media if anyone is unaware of his character.

The leader of our government just curled up on the rug in front of him looking to have his head patted. It’s embarrassing. We’re not that country any more, it’s not the early 90s.

Podge_irl · 16-03-2018 11:38AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

On another note, I’ve always wondered if renewable energy is a necessary long term alternative, why aren’t we working with Irish companies to try to improve the appearance of wind farms? Wonder if there’s an avenue for that, do they have to be big ugly white things in order to work?!

Probably. They can not be obstructed in order to work properly and they probably need to be plainly visible as they are large standalone structures and we don't want light aircraft crashing into them. I doubt the stark white is a purely aesthetic choice.

Podge_irl · 16-03-2018 11:42AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He was under the orders. He specifically spoke about how direct Trump was in their conversations.

Does anyone really think the conversation was Trump voicing his concerns?! This is Donald Trump we’re talking about, there’s quite a bit of coverage of him in the media if anyone is unaware of his character.

I am fully aware of his public character yes.

He was not under the orders. He could easily have told him to go **** himself. That, of course, while cathartic probably would not have been the most sensible thing to do - particularly given the sensitive nature of the person he was dealing with.

Shock horror - in public office you deal with obnoxious, demanding people at times. Some times you end up placating them, sometimes you don't.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:45AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I am fully aware of his public character yes.

He was not under the orders. He could easily have told him to go **** himself. That, of course, while cathartic probably would not have been the most sensible thing to do - particularly given the sensitive nature of the person he was dealing with.

Shock horror - in public office you deal with obnoxious, demanding people at times. Some times you end up placating them, sometimes you don't.

He didn’t though.

He did exactly as he was told. Then he went over to America and reported on his good behavior to the rest of the class.

Podge_irl · 16-03-2018 11:47AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He didn’t though.

He did exactly as he was told. Then he went over to America and reported on his good behavior to the rest of the class.

He chose to make a phone call to placate the concerns of a businessman with tourism interests - which as far as I am concerned is within his brief. i.e. he was doing his job.

If your philosophy in life is to refuse to do anything demanded of you out of spite you're not going to get very far. Unless politicians sit on their arse and pick their nose they are going to end up doing things that someone has "demanded" of them or "ordered them" to do.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:49AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

He chose to make a phone call to placate the concerns of a businessman with tourism interests - which as far as I am concerned is within his brief. i.e. he was doing his job.

If your philosophy in life is to refuse to do anything demanded of you out of spite you're not going to get very far.

I didn’t say he should have refused to do it out of spite.

He should absolutely not have done it because he was asked to however. He should have done it because on the weight of evidence it was the right thing to do for the people of Ireland. He didn’t even, according to his story, attempt to collect that evidence. And the fact this all happened off the books makes it extremely unsettling and unpalatable.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 11:50AM

Lots of thing we* don't know here:

Was it an unreasonable request? And what exactly was the request?
Did the request have a direct result on the planning decision?
Did the development go ahead somewhere else?

*I really mean me.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 11:55AM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Lots of thing we* don't know here:

Was it an unreasonable request? And what exactly was the request?
Did the request have a direct result on the planning decision?
Did the development go ahead somewhere else?

*I really mean me.

If they had followed the rules it’s be far easier to know the answers to these questions. Although he wouldn’t have gotten involved if they had.

He will likely end up before the Dail to answer questions on it now though, so it may all come out eventually.

Podge_irl · 16-03-2018 12:00PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I didn’t say he should have refused to do it out of spite.

He should absolutely not have done it because he was asked to however. He should have done it because on the weight of evidence it was the right thing to do for the people of Ireland. He didn’t even, according to his story, attempt to collect that evidence. And the fact this all happened off the books makes it extremely unsettling and unpalatable.

Well at least we've gone from "ordered to" to "asked to".

His brief was tourism and I would argue he does not need to take a holistic approach to the issue. That is for the planning board to do. There is also no indication whatsoever that he pressured the council into making any decision. A businessman called Leo. Leo called someone on the council. Turns out the project had loads of objections and given the history of these things in Ireland was always likely to get turned down. Worth noting that ABP upheld the decision without any nefarious intervention from Leo.

The response to it has been hysterical and embarrassing as far as I'm concerned.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 12:04PM

In other Trump related news, Don Junior's wife is divorcing him. An uncontested divorce which means no fight over custody or money.

Cynical me is wondering if this is a means of banking money away from pesky creditors.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 12:05PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well at least we've gone from "ordered to" to "asked to".

His brief was tourism and I would argue he does not need to take a holistic approach to the issue. That is for the planning board to do. There is also no indication whatsoever that he pressured the council into making any decision. A businessman called Leo. Leo called someone on the council. Turns out the project had loads of objections and given the history of these things in Ireland was always likely to get turned down. Worth noting that ABP upheld the decision without any nefarious intervention from Leo.

The response to it has been hysterical and embarrassing as far as I'm concerned.

Why on earth would our minister for tourism not take a holistic approach to this, given our environment and landscape is the single biggest draw in tourism to Ireland?

Catherine Murphy put it right in her statement. This is not normal politics and we shouldn’t just believe it is because they tell us it is. It’s exactly the sort of backhanderism we need to eliminate from our political culture.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 12:09PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why on earth would our minister for tourism not take a holistic approach to this, given our environment and landscape is the single biggest draw in tourism to Ireland?

Catherine Murphy put it right in her statement. This is not normal politics and we shouldn’t just believe it is because they tell us it is. It’s exactly the sort of backhanderism we need to eliminate from our political culture.

Does this not depend on what Leo was asked?

If he was asked a simple "what's the story, is planning going to be approved?", which question he then put to the CC, then it's hardly worth getting our knickers in a twist over.

If on the other hand it's "Can this be stopped?" which then was translated to the CC as "Can you stop this?", then we are indeed not talking about normal politics.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 12:10PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Does this not depend on what Leo was asked?

If he was asked a simple "what's the story, is planning going to be approved?", which question he then put to the CC, then it's hardly worth getting our knickers in a twist over.

If on the other hand it's "Can this be stopped?" which then was translated to the CC as "Can you stop this?", then we are indeed not talking about normal politics.

Yes, fair point. Certainly worth hearing from whoever he spoke to.

Podge_irl · 16-03-2018 12:10PM

I would suggest she doesn’t know what a backhander is then. So no, she didn’t put it right.

Bazzo · 16-03-2018 12:16PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

In other Trump related news, Don Junior's wife is divorcing him. An uncontested divorce which means no fight over custody or money.

Cynical me is wondering if this is a means of banking money away from pesky creditors.

The Trump organisation, of which Jr is now an executive director, was just subpoenaed for documentation by special counsel...

As for Leo, whatever about anything else I find it pretty pathetic that the Taoiseach feels the need to publicly ram his nose up anyone's hole, let alone that particular stain on humanity.

16-03-2018 12:19PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

I would suggest she doesn’t know what a backhander is then. So no, she didn’t put it right.

Exactly. The only thing I find embarrassing and indeed a little concerning about this whole affair is the sheer number of people happy to jump to whatever conclusions they can imagine for an excuse to criticise the Government.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 12:20PM

Bazzo wrote: »

The Trump organisation, of which Jr is now an executive director, was just subpoenaed for documentation by special counsel...

Yeah, that could be a reason for her to open a bit of distance, but not sure whether it makes sense financially in purely those circumstances.

Bazzo wrote: »

As for Leo, whatever about anything else I find it pretty pathetic that the Taoiseach feels the need to publicly ram his nose up anyone's hole, let alone that particular stain on humanity.

Yep. Not his finest hour. Although we've been brown-nosing the US for decades, it's just that bit more distasteful now...

Off Topic Thread 4.0

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