Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

jacothelad · 13-03-2018 09:55AM

molloyjh wrote: »

What do people think about players being named and labelled disappointing and basically being called deadwood?

There’s a decent bit of positives in there to be fair. Hopefully the development pathways are producing the talent as they’re suggesting. That would be a massive turnaround.

Amateur time yet again. It's no way to treat or label an employee. However, the sentiment is not wildly off the mark. There are a few guys who have allowed themselves to become deadwood, guys who have ability but have allowed it to atrophy....unless of course it is down to useless coaching...which may well be true. Losing the input / leadership on the pitch from Payne, Bowe, Trimble, Henry, Pienaar is hard to replace. Best rarely plays at all these days. Herring seems to be leading from the front. He is a classy player. We are lucky to have him and O'Connor.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 10:19AM

Cunningham should be handing in his resignation based on those quotes/paraphrases. That amounts to an utter betrayal of the players while attempting to play good cop to an agitated audience. I can't see player agents advocating a move to Ulster when their clients could be called out like this.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 10:23AM

It's an absolutely mad thing to be saying to the public about your players, if those quotes are true.

Former Former · 13-03-2018 10:25AM

I dunno. If he came out and said that everyone is doing their best, we're in this together yadda yadda yadda, people would be flipping out that management can't even see the problems.

I would totally agree it is bad HR practice, by the way. I just don't think that normal practice is what Ulster need right now.

launish116 · 13-03-2018 10:26AM

No issue with calling players deadwood! In most scenarios.

If they can’t get motivated normally and being called out can’t change things. It is what it is. Though we have players like Diack who definitely give and just don’t make it.

Sadly looking back at some signings there best seasons have been renewal seasons! Nick Williams etc. Black is another example, playing great this season but due to leave .

Signings:
Another 2nd row would be great cause realistically with limited game time for Henderson leaves 2 senior 2nd rows. Had there not been talk of a South African 2nd row from sharks boarderinf on bok team.
Dave Kearny definitely be a good acquisition. Still think we should of picked up Copeland.

awec · 13-03-2018 10:26AM

Seems spot on to me.

**** players putting in **** performances.

Cunningham would have looked like a clueless fool if he had tried to spin anything positive about the players in question.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 10:27AM

Former Former wrote: »

I dunno. If he came out and said that everyone is doing their best, we're in this together yadda yadda yadda, people would be flipping out that management can't even see the problems.

If a few players have their feelings hurt, then good. Maybe it will give them a kick up the ass that is so badly needed. Charles Piutau, I'm looking at you.

You don't need to name drop players. You can easily talk around it concerning positions you want to improve.

Remember the Munster email anyone? This sort of stuff can absolutely harm players' careers.

awec · 13-03-2018 10:28AM

Former Former wrote: »

I dunno. If he came out and said that everyone is doing their best, we're in this together yadda yadda yadda, people would be flipping out that management can't even see the problems.

I would totally agree it is bad HR practice, by the way. I just don't think that normal practice is what Ulster need right now.

Yea people forget he was addressing a group of people who Ulster are desperate to keep pumping money in to the club.

Of course he’s going to be honest, the supported have had their fill of bull****.

awec · 13-03-2018 10:28AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

You don't need to name drop players. You can easily talk around it concerning positions you want to improve.

He was asked about specific players.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 10:28AM

awec wrote: »

Seems spot on to me.

**** players putting in **** performances.

Cunningham would have looked like a clueless fool if he had tried to spin anything positive about the players in question.

Yeah, he can make the point without naming the players publicly. It really is amateur hour stuff.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 10:29AM

awec wrote: »

Seems spot on to me.

**** players putting in **** performances.

Cunningham would have looked like a clueless fool if he had tried to spin anything positive about the players in question.

He didn't need to spin anything positive about it. But going through individual players and calling them disappointing on a player by player basis to a bunch of fans who know ****-all about professional rugby is going to go down very, very poorly.

And as for "this is what Ulster need"... the last thing Ulster need is to gain a reputation as a bad destination for players looking to move around.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 10:29AM

awec wrote: »

He was asked about specific players.

"My apologies but I'm not willing to talk about individual players as that would be a betrayal of trust".

There's your answer.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 10:30AM

awec wrote: »

He was asked about specific players.

If he was asked for his bank details should he have handed that over as well?

awec · 13-03-2018 10:30AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

"My apologies but I'm not willing to talk about individual players as that would be a betrayal of trust".

There's your answer.

Ah gimme a break. A betrayal of trust.

I can only imagine the reaction if he has given such a cowardly and vacuous answer to the hard questions.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 10:33AM

awec wrote: »

Ah gimme a break. A betrayal of trust.

I can only imagine the reaction if he has given such a cowardly and vacuous answer to the hard questions.

He's the man who hired them. He has to deal with the reaction.

Former Former · 13-03-2018 10:33AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

You don't need to name drop players. You can easily talk around it concerning positions you want to improve.

Remember the Munster email anyone? This sort of stuff can absolutely harm players' careers.

Yeah, I totally agree. I suppose we don't know exactly what was said, i.e. we don't know if players were actually named, or whether it was just very easy for people to put two and two together and figure out who was meant.

Either way, it's an extreme approach and I wouldn't do it myself, seems like a HR nightmare in the making, but it does at least show that management understand the issues.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 10:34AM

awec wrote: »

Ah gimme a break. A betrayal of trust.

I can only imagine the reaction if he has given such a cowardly and vacuous answer to the hard questions.

His was a cowards way out. Pointing the finger at others rather than taking it on the chin like he should be. "It's not my fault guys, sure look at this fella here and that fella over there". Imagine the sort of culture that type of "leadership" generates, encourages and empowers

Sorry now awec, but you're blinkers are on here in a big way.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 10:34AM

Meanwhile, Richard Cockerill gave a great example of how to handle a disastrous signing. He spoke about "spreading costs" and praised the young guys behind Hardie.

Ulster need a clearout, but its not the players currently being thrown under the bus that need to be cleared out. It's the guys doing the throwing.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 10:36AM

I suppose we've only heard from jaco and awec from an Ulster perspective on this. Would be curious to hear others opinions.

Former Former · 13-03-2018 10:40AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Meanwhile, Richard Cockerill gave a great example of how to handle a disastrous signing. He spoke about "spreading costs" and praised the young guys behind Hardie.

Ulster need a clearout, but its not the players currently being thrown under the bus that need to be cleared out. It's the guys doing the throwing.

It's both.

That Ulster squad needs a huge clear out. It is laden down with deadwood, both of the homegrown and imported varieties. If a player isn't good enough, that's unfortunate - but if he's not trying hard enough, then the cattle prod has to come out.

It shouldn't be done in public, but maybe (total speculation incoming) the management feel that doing things behind closed doors isn't having the desired effect, something more drastic is needed.

Or maybe they just felt the heat from an angry crowd and said some stuff they shouldn't have...

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 10:42AM

Former Former wrote: »

It's both.

That Ulster squad needs a huge clear out. It is laden down with deadwood, both of the homegrown and imported varieties. If a player isn't good enough, that's unfortunate - but if he's not trying hard enough, then the cattle prod has to come out.

It shouldn't be done in public, but maybe (total speculation incoming) the management feel that doing things behind closed doors isn't having the desired effect, something more drastic is needed.

Or maybe they just felt the heat from an angry crowd and said some stuff they shouldn't have...

Maybe it is both. But you can't start with the players and you can't start both at the same time.

bilston · 13-03-2018 10:50AM

I was surprised to hear that he was so outspoken about individuals. What he says is correct, but surprising to hear nonetheless.

It will be interesting to see if Schalk Van Der Merwe and Jean Deysel are here next season.

awec · 13-03-2018 10:51AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Meanwhile, Richard Cockerill gave a great example of how to handle a disastrous signing. He spoke about "spreading costs" and praised the young guys behind Hardie.

Ulster need a clearout, but its not the players currently being thrown under the bus that need to be cleared out. It's the guys doing the throwing.

This is just completely wrong.

Guys like Van see Merwe are exactly the deadwood that needs cleared. Deysel too if he doesn’t improve.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 10:52AM

awec wrote: »

This is just completely wrong.

Guys like Van see Merwe are exactly the deadwood that needs cleared. Deysel too if he doesn’t improve.

The problem is Cunningham is equally part of the 'deadwood'. He needs to call himself out as much if not more than these players.

awec · 13-03-2018 10:54AM

This place is hilarious sometimes. Ulster are a mess, the players need to take responsibility. We heard a lot of this from people who kept making excuses for Kiss.

Oh, but don’t dare actually say that to anyone, cause it might hurt their feelings.

Let’s just keep acting the ostrich to the season ticket holders, it has always worked so well in the past.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 10:54AM

awec wrote: »

This is just completely wrong.

Guys like Van see Merwe are exactly the deadwood that needs cleared. Deysel too if he doesn’t improve.

So the problem is all the guys within the squad and not the guys who decided to bring them in?

Fair play to Bryn and Logan, whatever they're doing seems to be working. I should probably start taking notes.

awec · 13-03-2018 10:55AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So the problem is all the guys within the squad and not the guys who decided to bring them in?

Fair play to Bryn and Logan, whatever they're doing seems to be working. I should probably start taking notes.

The problem is the guys in the squad and those who bring them in.

But to say the problem is not the deadwood or that we can’t fix that first, that’s just completely wrong.

Crap players either buck up their ideas or leave. Either works for me.

Former Former · 13-03-2018 10:56AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

The problem is Cunningham is equally part of the 'deadwood'. He needs to call himself out as much if not more than these players.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Cunningham not the manager, i.e. the guy in charge of operations for the pro side?

I'm not sure he's really culpable for what we've seen on the pitch.

To flip it around, when Leinster are riding high in Europe and the Pro12, no one is singing Guy Easterby's praises and no one mentions Mick Dawson. It's Cullen and Lancaster getting the plaudits.

So with Kiss gone, Gibbes gone, and before that Doak and Clarke gone, is it not high time the players copped some flak?

awec · 13-03-2018 10:59AM

Former Former wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Cunningham not the manager, i.e. the guy in charge of operations for the pro side?

I'm not sure he's really culpable for what we've seen on the pitch.

He is.

He is in charge of players contracts. Also does the signings, or some of them at least. It hasn’t been clear if he always identifies the talent or if he’s the guy who is told to go sign specific players identified by others. I suspect a mix of both.

Buer · 13-03-2018 10:59AM

Naming and shaming individual players is fun to watch from a bystander perspective but madness from an internal management perspective.

The last thing Ulster Rugby need to be doing is ostracising players which potentially is going to deter future arrivals.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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