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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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Comments

  • #8942
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    swampgas wrote: »
    You're very passionate in your beliefs. So are many, many people who want the 8th repealed.

    Abortion is one of those emotive topics that people often need to make a journey to understand. It's not simple. Ireland has been stuck in a time warp for decades, and it's not because Ireland is somehow better than anywhere else. Ireland has learned, Ireland has grown up, and Ireland will have legal abortion, with or without you.

    You are screaming about betrayal? That's makes my blood boil, to be honest. The women and girls of Ireland, and the men and women who love them, have been betrayed for decades by a people and government too cowardly and immature to face the reality of the need for abortion in Ireland. The 8th amendment was and is a betrayal, a shameful betrayal, of the women of Ireland. I for one will feel like a stain has been lifted from the country when it is finally repealed.

    Maybe you like voting for people who openly lied?
    It is a betrayal whether it makes your blood boil or not.


  • #8943
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    January wrote: »
    I'm not saying my child is a genius but she understands the process of abortion and what may cause a woman to have one. It's not that hard to understand.

    But the point is, it's not about the child understanding what the issues are. It's whether they agree with it or not.

    And people putting up on pictures of their kids on social media and saying stuff like "Little Aoibhinn is pro-life/pro-choice!" are just nauseating and emotive and, forgive me, but I don't believe those people have given their child the option of deciding how they feel about the issue. They've probably either been nudged into believing what their parent does or they were never asked at all and are just being as a cheap photo op.


  • #8944
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,009 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    January wrote: »
    Are you really serious? A child can definitely understand things when it's explained to them simply.

    Fatal fetal abnormality = the baby is very sick in the mother's belly and will not survive outside of it.

    Rape = when someone forces someone to have sex with them against their will (and yes, I have spoken to my child about rape, I may not have called it rape but she knows about it, I have younger kids too and will discuss it with them when I feel they're ready too)

    We haven't discussed incest yet but I'm sure it will come.

    She knows that some women do not want to remain pregnant and that there are a myriad of reasons for that such as the above cases and also because of possibly financial implications or that they just don't want to have children and that currently women who don't want to, or can't remain pregnant, are forced to go to England so they can have either pills or an operation to remove the fetus from the womb and she knows that there is a referendum coming up about it.

    I'm not saying my child is a genius but she understands the process of abortion and what may cause a woman to have one. It's not that hard to understand.

    We aren't talking about your child. We are talking about a child that is carrying a Prolife banner. I do not believe for one minute that it's parents have discussed the alternative view.


  • #8945
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    It's possible they have, their version of the alternatives view though, not the actual alternative view.


  • #8946
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,009 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    But the point is, it's not about the child understanding what the issues are. It's whether they agree with it or not.

    And people putting up on pictures of their kids on social media and saying stuff like "Little Aoibhinn is pro-life/pro-choice!" are just nauseating and emotive and, forgive me, but I don't believe those people have given their child the option of deciding how they feel about the issue. They've probably either been nudged into believing what their parent does or they were never asked at all and are just being as a cheap photo op.

    Absolutely. It's an action designed to make people think about a child. To engender sympathy just like a beggar with a child.

    But it's the double standard of saying that you want to protect children but then use them to further your cause.


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  • #8947
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    But the point is, it's not about the child understanding what the issues are. It's whether they agree with it or not.

    And people putting up on pictures of their kids on social media and saying stuff like "Little Aoibhinn is pro-life/pro-choice!" are just nauseating and emotive and, forgive me, but I don't believe those people have given their child the option of deciding how they feel about the issue. They've probably either been nudged into believing what their parent does or they were never asked at all and are just being as a cheap photo op.

    I brought my son to the pro choice march last year, he's 8. He doesn't understand abortion but he knew we were marching so women could have agency over their own body, he understands that concept well. It's up to each parent to decide what their child needs to know and every child is different. I don't think taking a child to any march regardless of your "side" is wrong, I just know I'd rather my kids marched with those who are now judgemental, open minded and supportive.


  • #8948
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,009 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    January wrote: »
    It's possible they have, their version of the alternatives view though, not the actual alternative view.

    Someone who is carrying a pro life banner has the no alternative view.


  • #8949
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,009 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I brought my son to the pro choice march last year, he's 8. He doesn't understand abortion but he knew we were marching so women could have agency over their own body, he understands that concept well. It's up to each parent to decide what their child needs to know and every child is different. I don't think taking a child to any march regardless of your "side" is wrong, I just know I'd rather my kids marched with those who are now judgemental, open minded and supportive.

    Really ? Try running that past a child psychologist. I disagree with it regardless of the side & I am pro choice.


  • #8950
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Discodog wrote: »
    Absolutely. It's an action designed to make people think about a child. To engender sympathy just like a beggar with a child.

    But it's the double standard of saying that you want to protect children but then use them to further your cause.

    Yeah, but to be honest and I say this as a pro-choicer, I look just as dimly on Repeal supporters using their children in this way. I honestly think there is no need to employ tactics like that and I'm not comfortable with children being manipulated like that.


  • #8951
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I brought my son to the pro choice march last year, he's 8. He doesn't understand abortion but he knew we were marching so women could have agency over their own body, he understands that concept well. It's up to each parent to decide what their child needs to know and every child is different. I don't think taking a child to any march regardless of your "side" is wrong, I just know I'd rather my kids marched with those who are now judgemental, open minded and supportive.

    There's no harm bringing them to marches. They can soak up the atmosphere and will take in some information there. But putting them front and centre of photos and saying what the child believes in - that really doesn't sit well with me at all. They are so young to be boxed in like that. And a strong campaign shouldn't need to resort to such emotive codswallop.


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  • #8952
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Discodog wrote: »
    Really ? Try running that past a child psychologist. I disagree with it regardless of the side & I am pro choice.

    I'm quite confident bringing a kid to a march isn't going to mess them up regardless what side you support.


  • #8953
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭swampgas


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Maybe you like voting for people who openly lied?
    It is a betrayal whether it makes your blood boil or not.

    Meh. Abortion being available is far more important than the fact that spineless politicians were too afraid to speak up about it for years. Now that the voters are in favour of legalising abortion the politicians are finally coming out of cover to support it.

    If you feel betrayed because politicians are a little less hypocritical than they used to be, so be it.


  • #8954
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,009 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm quite confident bringing a kid to a march isn't going to mess them up regardless what side you support.

    So it's ok to use them as long as it doesn't permanently mess with them.


  • #8955
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I brought my son to the pro choice march last year, he's 8. He doesn't understand abortion but he knew we were marching so women could have agency over their own body, he understands that concept well. It's up to each parent to decide what their child needs to know and every child is different. I don't think taking a child to any march regardless of your "side" is wrong, I just know I'd rather my kids marched with those who are now judgemental, open minded and supportive.

    I'd see no harm in that personally, parents are a child's first teacher and including them in something you strongly believe in is your right as a parent, no harm in that at all.
    My own parents never brought me to a protest march, they would have been and indeed my mother still is fiercely anti abortion.
    I got my values mainly from them, they were (and my mother still is) very loving and giving and supportive parents to me and my siblings.
    Of course as I'm now pro life because of it, I'm judgemental, close minded and unsupportive.


  • #8956
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Discodog wrote: »
    So it's ok to use them as long as it doesn't permanently mess with them.

    how is bringing a child to a march messing with them?


  • #8957
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Discodog wrote: »
    Absolutely. It's an action designed to make people think about a child. To engender sympathy just like a beggar with a child.

    But it's the double standard of saying that you want to protect children but then use them to further your cause.

    Both sides use children in the campaign.


  • #8958
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Discodog wrote: »
    Someone who is carrying a pro life banner has the no alternative view.

    What alternative view do you have yourself?


  • #8959
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8960
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Both sides use children in the campaign.

    That was already pointed out.


  • #8961
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    January wrote: »
    I don't think it's so young. Especially if it's explained in an age appropriate way, and it can be. Mine have asked about it because I wear my repeal jumper a lot and help run the local pro-choice group so go to meetings often.

    I would love to hear your explanation.


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  • #8962
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Given the extremist abortion laws planned by the politicians, 12 week abortion allowed for any reason, and no time limit on abortion for life limiting conditions or on mental health grounds, I don't believe the repeal the 8th will win.
    I don't believe people will trust letting the politicians in having the power to change law without asking the people in the future. It gives them free reign.
    Simon Harris campaigned and said he was pro-life, lies.
    Micheal Martin showed his previous words were lies.
    The repeal side have so many politicians supporting repeal who showed they lied to voters about their stance on abortion.
    Then they want voters to trust politicians over what the constitution at present guarantees.
    People aren't fools, repeal say trust women, I trust women and most I know are for the 8th amendment, I don't trust politicians who have proven they lied about this issue. They can say they went on a journey but it has been a journey of betrayal to their voters. What good is a person as a politician who says 'you can vote for me, I am prolife and will defend that position' but then does the exact opposite? Who would vote or put trust in giving people like this more power, when their word means zero?

    This is a huge issue, and I think the repeal campaign has made a huge mistake in calling for repeal. If there was a clear statement to vote on to REPLACE or AMEND the 8th, it would have a better chance of passing. As it stands we don't know what we are voting for, except to allow the whims of the politicians to decide. It will be a political football rather than a human rights issue, which IMO should be in the constitution. Its too important not to be. I say this regardless of your stance on the issue.


  • #8963
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    professore wrote: »
    This is a huge issue, and I think the repeal campaign has made a huge mistake in calling for repeal. If there was a clear statement to vote on to REPLACE or AMEND the 8th, it would have a better chance of passing. As it stands we don't know what we are voting for, except to allow the whims of the politicians to decide. It will be a political football rather than a human rights issue, which IMO should be in the constitution. Its too important not to be. I say this regardless of your stance on the issue.

    Given the way the present govt and some past ones were formed it would be easy to see how an independent TD could easily have the time allowed either shortened or lengthened.
    It could easily become a bargaining chip, imagine the Healy Rae's being in a position to bargain for instance.
    Others in favours of abortion too might well want the time extended.


  • #8964
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,803 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    professore wrote: »
    If there was a clear statement to vote on to REPLACE or AMEND the 8th, it would have a better chance of passing. .

    Living up to your name there professore...


  • #8965
    Discodog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,009 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    splinter65 wrote: »
    What alternative view do you have yourself?

    Leave the kids at home & I am firmly Pro Choice. I also agree that Pro Choice demonstrators should leave their kids at home.


  • #8966
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,831 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Would agree with you on this, Discodog, Be adult enough to, leave the kids at home.


  • #8967
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,199 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Thread needs a poll attached to it to get an idea what way people will vote.


  • #8968
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    People had to work that day. Easy get a rent a mob on the weekend.

    But we shall prevail and the RCC and their cohorts will be finally but in their place.

    Also easy to get a good crowd when you have the funds to lay in buses from around the country.


  • #8969
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    kylith wrote: »
    Also easy to get a good crowd when you have the funds to lay in buses from around the country.

    Agree.


    To be fair however, they (all 15,000 approx.) did give up their Saturday to come represent.


    I'm assuming the pro repeal crowd will have a rally soon? (Thursday's being International Women's day)


  • #8970
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kylith wrote: »
    Also easy to get a good crowd when you have the funds to lay in buses from around the country.

    all the piles of pre-printed material they had couldn't be cheap.


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  • #8971
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


This discussion has been closed.
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