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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?
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Quotes from Wikpeadia on late abortion:-
"The International Federation of Gynecology and Obstericss states that abortions "after 22 weeks [gestation] must be preceded by feticide." If medical staff observe signs of life, they may be required to provide care: emergency medical care if the child has a good chance of survival and palliative care if not."
Good thing you read the report then:rolleyes:
you missed the start of the sentence
"Termination of pregnancy following prenatal diagnosis after 22 weeks, must be preceded by a foeticide "
From the same report
"In countries where it is an accepted medical practice, whenever a severe untreatable foetal disease or malformation, incompatible with a normal life, is diagnosed by prenatal diagnosis"
not exactly what you were trying to make it out to be;)
To add:
Just because its on wikipedia with a "quote" doesnt make it correct.0 -
I currently do not possess any real knowledge on the arguments for and against but with a potential referendum on the way there is obvious need to accustom ourselves with the issue in the coming weeks. There are difficult questions.
My first query is two part:
In a given year in Ireland how many women's lives or physical health is at risk?;
If the 8th is repelled it will probably be here to stay; how many children will be killed in, let's say, the following decade, taking into account people who want an abortion because the pregnancy is a mistake or interferes with their lifestyle?0 -
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interesting to see the stats there for late term abortion from the kind of "western liberal" countries that are being held up as shining examples of what we should aspire to be. The leader there appears to be Canada, with a shocking 2% of abortions occurring after 21 weeks. At that age, the "choice" is between feticide or putting them in an incubator.
Canada a country that decided to go ultra-liberal on the whole issue, get rid of all legal protection for the unborn, and hand it entirely over to "medical ethics".
[/URL].
Shocking?
Id be more shocked at people not asking why the late term abortions occured before jumping to conclusions0 -
Define "health".
As I am just beginning to explore this very sensitive I may or msy not have made an error in the wording above.
In this case, health for me is theoverall wellbeing of the woman and her ability to continue with the pregnancy.
With regard to 'risk to physical health' , I was refering to a deterioration of wellbeing, due to systematic infection for example.0 -
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Katie Full Leak wrote: »You don't have a crystal ball but you "know" it won't happen.
Do tell us how you know?
It's snowing outside so I've time on my hands to await your response.:)
Throw all the sand up in the air you like. It would never happen here
The posts here suggest that women can walk in up to the moment of birth and demand abortion
That
Will
Never
Happen.0 -
Throw all the sand up in the air you like. It would never happen here
The posts here suggest that women can walk in up to the moment of birth and demand abortion
That
Will
Never
Happen.
There have been lots of things which people said would never happen.
Man walking on the moon
Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
The atomic bomb
Gay Marriage!0 -
Katie Full Leak wrote: »There have been lots of things which people said would never happen.
Man walking on the moon
Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
The atomic bomb
Gay Marriage!
and conversely, lots of things would happen but didnt.0 -
I currently do not possess any real knowledge on the arguments for and against but with a potential referendum on the way there is obvious need to accustom ourselves with the issue in the coming weeks. There are difficult questions.
My first query is two part:
In a given year in Ireland how many women's lives or physical health is at risk?;
If the 8th is repelled it will probably be here to stay; how many children will be killed in, let's say, the following decade, taking into account people who want an abortion because the pregnancy is a mistake or interferes with their lifestyle?
This wasn't rhetorical per se. I didn't know the answer. It was/is an exercise to expand my understanding of the ongoing debate.
It’s not known how many legal abortions are performed in the Republic of Ireland where there the woman’s life is threatened by her pregnancy. Master of the National Maternity Hospital Dr Rhona Mahony’s estimate is ten to 20 per year; Master of the Rotunda Hospital Dr Sam Coulter Smith reckons 20 to 30 terminations are performed.
www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/08/07/8-myths/
Taking a country of similar population to Ireland, 5million approx, Denmark in the single 2014 year had fifteen thousand abortions (15,000)
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-denmark.html
Norway fourteen thousand abortions in 2015(14,000)
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-norway.html
There is disparity between the figures.0 -
Katie Full Leak wrote: »There have been lots of things which people said would never happen.
Man walking on the moon
Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
The atomic bomb
Gay Marriage!
I am still laughing at your post. Step back and admire its stupidity. Please. Within the context of our debate here you are actually talking nonsense.0 -
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This wasn't rhetorical per se. I didn't know the answer. It was/is an exercise to expand my understanding of the ongoing debate.
It’s not known how many legal abortions are performed in the Republic of Ireland where there the woman’s life is threatened by her pregnancy. Master of the National Maternity Hospital Dr Rhona Mahony’s estimate is ten to 20 per year; Master of the Rotunda Hospital Dr Sam Coulter Smith reckons 20 to 30 terminations are performed.
www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/08/07/8-myths/
Taking a country of similar population to Ireland, 5million approx, Denmark in the single 2014 year had fifteen thousand abortions (15,000)
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-denmark.html
Norway fourteen thousand abortions in 2015(14,000)
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-norway.html
There is disparity between the figures.
Of course there is disparity when you compare estimates for one reason for abortion against a figure including all reasons for abortion.
Were you expecting them to be equal?0 -
You haven't made a mistake. The word health was used in English abortion law, whereas the word life is used in the Irish equivalent. And that is how abortion on demand slipped into being across the water.As I am just beginning to explore this very sensitive I may or msy not have made an error in the wording above.
In this case, health for me is theoverall wellbeing of the woman and her ability to continue with the pregnancy.
With regard to 'risk to physical health' , I was refering to a deterioration of wellbeing, due to systematic infection for example.
A good proportion of the everyday prescriptions being handed out at any GP surgery will have the contra-indication written on them "not to be taken by pregnant women". It can be argued then that an abortion is "necessary" on "health" grounds, even for minor ailments. If that is the woman's choice.
So you can be pro-choice, or pro-life. But not both.0 -
uptherebels wrote: »Good thing you read the report then:rolleyes:
you missed the start of the sentence
"Termination of pregnancy following prenatal diagnosis after 22 weeks, must be preceded by a foeticide "
From the same report
"In countries where it is an accepted medical practice, whenever a severe untreatable foetal disease or malformation, incompatible with a normal life, is diagnosed by prenatal diagnosis"
not exactly what you were trying to make it out to be;)
Late abortions aren't only carried out for foetal abnormalities ... (only 36% of late abortions were done for this reason in 2015 in England and Wales) ... and even then "a severe untreatable foetal disease or malformation, incompatible with a normal life "can be something as simple as a hare-lip or Downes Syndrome.
... and the following quote shows that most (61%) of late term abortions are carried out for health reasons ... for which 1,801 late abortions were done in 2015 in England and Wales.
Only 23 or 0.8% of late abortions were performed where the mothers life was at risk.
Quote;-
The NHS records the reasons given for abortions at all stages of development. In 2015, 2,877 abortions were performed at 20 weeks or above. Of these, 23 (0.8%) were performed to save the life of the pregnant woman, 1,801 (63%) were performed for mental or physical health reasons, and 1046 (36%) were performed because of foetal abnormalities. (The data do not sum up to 100% because multiple reasons could be recorded for each abortion.)[21]
Reference:-
[21]Department of Health (17 May 2016). Report on abortion statistics in England and Wales for 2015 (PDF) (Report). p. 31 (Table 7b). Retrieved 2016-10-24.0 -
20-30 abortions where the womans life is at risk in Ireland compared to 23 abortions for the same reason in England and Wales ... small numbers whichever way you look at it.This wasn't rhetorical per se. I didn't know the answer. It was/is an exercise to expand my understanding of the ongoing debate.
It’s not known how many legal abortions are performed in the Republic of Ireland where there the woman’s life is threatened by her pregnancy. Master of the National Maternity Hospital Dr Rhona Mahony’s estimate is ten to 20 per year; Master of the Rotunda Hospital Dr Sam Coulter Smith reckons 20 to 30 terminations are performed.
www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/08/07/8-myths/0 -
A conservative estimate is that about 250,000 extra abortions will be done in Ireland over the next 35 years or about 7,500 per year, if the 8th is repealed.I currently do not possess any real knowledge on the arguments for and against but with a potential referendum on the way there is obvious need to accustom ourselves with the issue in the coming weeks. There are difficult questions.
My first query is two part:
In a given year in Ireland how many women's lives or physical health is at risk?;
If the 8th is repelled it will probably be here to stay; how many children will be killed in, let's say, the following decade, taking into account people who want an abortion because the pregnancy is a mistake or interferes with their lifestyle?
This would be about half the current abortion rate in England and Wales. If we match the British abortion rate, then Irish abortions will be about 500,000.
190,800 abortions were notified as taking place in England and Wales in 2013. 185,331 were to residents of England and Wales.
The equivalent rate for Ireland, with one eleventh of the poplulation would be 15,700.
Since approval of abortion in the UK in 1967, 8,745,508 abortions have been performed ... a terrible death toll of the most vulnerable.0 -
uptherebels wrote: »Of course there is disparity when you compare estimates for one reason for abortion against a figure including all reasons for abortion.
Were you expecting them to be equal?
No. Not at all.
Let's say 30 is also the average number per year in Demmark and Norway for abortions due to life threatening complications to the mother. That leaves approx. 13970 terminations that are not. A 465 fold greater amount; due to what? Mistakes? Results of a carnal fumble? Down syndrome?(totally gorgeous non-egotisical humans) or something as innocent as a cleft lip?
These are mind boggling, mind numbing figures. Soul numbing.
It's not justifiable.0 -
No. Not at all.
Let's say 30 is also the average number per year in Demmark and Norway for abortions due to life threatening complications to the mother. That leaves approx. 13970 terminations that are not. A 465 fold greater amount; due to what? Mistakes? Results of a carnal fumble? Down syndrome?(totally gorgeous non-egotisical humans) or something as innocent as a cleft lip?
These are mind boggling, mind numbing figures. Soul numbing.
It's not justifiable.
But the tens of thousands of abortions that Irish women have procured over the years thanks to the 13th amendment are acceptable, right?
If you want to ensure that only life saving abortions take place you must work towards closing down the gaping loophole that is the 13th. Anything else is NIMBYism, not prolife at all.
Secondly, since it's extremely difficult to identify the exact point when a woman's life becomes at risk, many women will be permanently injured and from time to time one will die. As we have seen. Again, it's hard to see how that can be justified given the thousands of legal abortions Irishwomen currently procure under our (ineffective) "ban" on abortion.
So I woudl say if you want to reduce numbers of abortions, proven measures like proper sex education and free contraception would do a lot more than a ban on abortion with loopholes you could drive a coachand horses through.0 -
This has been addressed innumerable times on this thread ... most of these abortions are not acceptable ... but they are within the law in England ... and thus aren't illegal in Ireland, with or without the 13th.But the tens of thousands of abortions that Irish women have procured over the years thanks to the 13th amendment are acceptable, right?
There is no 'gaping hole' in the 13th ... and even if it was repealed, women, pregnant or otherwise, would be quite entitled to travel to England, or anywhere else ... and if they availed of lawful services, including abortion, while abroad, there would be nothing that could (or should) be done about it.If you want to ensure that only life saving abortions take place you must work towards closing down the gaping loophole that is the 13th. Anything else is NIMBYism, not prolife at all.
Like I have said previously, a man can go to Spain and legally engage in bull fighting there ... and his partner can have an abortion there ... and they will face no legal consequences upon their return to Ireland ... provided they don't start bull fighting or aborting in Ireland.
This is now addressed by the PLDPA.Secondly, since it's extremely difficult to identify the exact point when a woman's life becomes at risk, many women will be permanently injured and from time to time one will die. As we have seen.
Quote (Irish Times):-
The (maternal death) rate increased from 8.6 per 100,000 maternities in the period 2009-2011 to 10.5 in 2010-2012. However, the report says this increase is not statistically significant and the Irish rate is similar to the UK rate of 10.1. There was no evidence of clustering in any one maternity hospital.
Women born outside Ireland were over-represented in reported deaths, pointing to an increased risk for migrant ethnic minorities. Almost 39 per cent of deaths were among women born outside Ireland, while this group represented 24 per cent of all women giving birth.
“This raises issues as to how these women engage with Irish maternity services and the importance of the availability of interpretative services. A particular concern was the issue of engagement with the services by non-national patients in receipt of alternative medical advice from outside the country.”
So, basically getting non-national women to engage with medical services is the key to lowering maternal death rates in Ireland (back to lower than the current British rate, where they were historically) ... and not abortion ... except in very exceptional circumstances.
Every year about 10 women regrettably die while pregnant, with a wanted pregnancy ... but then about 30,000 people die in Ireland every year ... many unexpectedly.
Such is life ... death is an ever-present risk for everyone who is alive ... and it makes no sense to go around aborting women ... on the highly unlikely chance that they might die while pregnant.
... and abortion doesn't alleviate that risk anyway ... except in a very small number of cases, and the PLDPA is there for these cases.
Looking at England and Wales, for example, 23 abortions to save the mothers life were performed in 2015 ... against total abortions of 190,000.
Our abortion 'ban' is no more or less effective than our 'ban' on bull fighting ... or the 'ban' on fox hunting in England.Again, it's hard to see how that can be justified given the thousands of legal abortions Irishwomen currently procure under our (ineffective) "ban" on abortion.
The fact that there is a campaign to repeal the 8th, to facilitate the introduction of abortion on demand up to 12 weeks ... and abortion for specified reasons up to 9 months, proves that the 8th is indeed effective at saving unborn childrens lives, in Ireland, with full regard for the lives of pregnant women as well.
Education is indeed important in reducing abortion ... as well as a comprehensive suite of state-supported options, other than killing the child, being made available to women with 'crisis' pregnancies.So I would say if you want to reduce numbers of abortions, proven measures like proper sex education and free contraception would do a lot more than a ban on abortion with loopholes you could drive a coachand horses through.
I would think that one of the biggest reasons for on-demand abortion is because the woman cannot countenance rearing the child, because of her particular circumstances ... and the availability of properly regulated adoption and fosterage could be the single greatest thing for winning over the hearts and minds of pregnant women, contemplating abortion.0 -
If abortion is "murder" as it's against a commandment, then how come killing in war isn't(according to my PP)
Both are "killing" so why is one ok in the religious community and the other isn't?
Wouldn't that impact on the Christian vote?"Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.
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Abortion is the killing of an innocent Human Being ... and thus is against the 6th Commandment ... and indeed it is repugnant to ordinary Human compassion and our collective humanity.If abortion is "murder" as it's against a commandment, then how come killing in war isn't(according to my PP)
Both are "killing" so why is one ok in the religious community and the other isn't?
Wouldn't that impact on the Christian vote?
When it comes to war, some Christians are pacifists, for example the Quakers, ... and they refuse to kill in any war.
However, killing in war is morally justified in self defense ... or the defense of other people, when there is no alternative option available.
If an enemy attacks your country, it has the moral right to kill in self-defense. However, it must be strictly in self defense and with no alternative option available. This means, for example, that it would be immoral, to kill defenseless civilians or to execute enemy prisoners of war who have surrendered themselves and their weapons.0 -
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There is a weird element at play in which certain factions believe that if they push the most hysterical worst possible option as fact and as what’s going to happen, people will believe it. And presumably vote against repeal.
It’s totally self defeating as this type of scare tactics and fear monger it simply doesn’t work and Ireland won’t ever adopt the position being proposed in these claims and statements. It doesn’t help anyone or the debate. We aren’t having that debate.
Come back and try to be reasonable and clear minded, folks. It’s almost bad baseless tabloid nonsense you’re engaging in and you lose people with even half a brain by doing it. It’s so flimsy and transparent.
it's not scaremongering but putting all possibilities and potentials on the table regardless of remoteness of them happening. this is necessary to insure people make a fully informed choice, as focusing on the short term proposals is not enough to go on when casting one's vote on this issue. there is no evidence ireland won't adopt the position being proposed in these claims and statements, hence it needs to be debated now as if the 8th is repealed, there will be no more votes by the people on abortion. again there is no evidence for your claim of people being lost because of giving facts, it's more baseless wishful thinking.Throw all the sand up in the air you like. It would never happen here
The posts here suggest that women can walk in up to the moment of birth and demand abortion
That
Will
Never
Happen.
there is no evidence that it will never happen, hence it needs to be debated now. trying to suggest it won't happen and trying to shut down that line of conversation will not work for you. all possibilities are going to be put on the table in this debate to insure everyone is fully informed of the long term possibilities that are availible, however remote them happening may be.But the tens of thousands of abortions that Irish women have procured over the years thanks to the 13th amendment are acceptable, right?
If you want to ensure that only life saving abortions take place you must work towards closing down the gaping loophole that is the 13th. Anything else is NIMBYism, not prolife at all.
Secondly, since it's extremely difficult to identify the exact point when a woman's life becomes at risk, many women will be permanently injured and from time to time one will die. As we have seen. Again, it's hard to see how that can be justified given the thousands of legal abortions Irishwomen currently procure under our (ineffective) "ban" on abortion.
So I woudl say if you want to reduce numbers of abortions, proven measures like proper sex education and free contraception would do a lot more than a ban on abortion with loopholes you could drive a coachand horses through.
we can only deal with acts commited within our state, or acts that are illegal abroad commited by citizens of our state. we cannot do anything about people traveling to other countries to do something that is legal there, even if it is murdering the unborn. modern medicine does have quite an idea of when a woman's life will be at risk. proper sex education and free contraception + a bann on abortion in ireland bar medical necessity is the best way to reduce abortions as having to travel and fund one's abortion themselves is quite likely to be a deterrent to some.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Well that is quite simply untrue. The UK and the US both have laws (on child sex abuse or FGM iirc) which explicitly apply to their citizens anywhere in the world, regardless of what the law in the country where the act takes place says.end of the road wrote: »we can only deal with acts commited within our state, or acts that are illegal abroad commited by citizens of our state. we cannot do anything about people traveling to other countries to do something that is legal there, even if it is murdering the unborn.
Ireland seems to have something similar concerning assisted suicide, going by the fact that a woman was denounced by a travel agent for trying to book a ticket to Switzerland for herself and her dying friend. She was tried and the jury took hours before acquitting her, so there was clearly a case to answer, ie it is illegal, even though they were going to a country where assisted suicide is legal.
So that claim is no more than a lie and a cop out.
Try telling that to Savita Hallapanavar's family. I'm sure it will be a great comfort to them.end of the road wrote: »modern medicine does have quite an idea of when a woman's life will be at risk.
The evidence shows that a ban on abortion has little to no effect on numbers of women having abortions, and instead merely causes women to be harmed by unsafe abortions.end of the road wrote: »proper sex education and free contraception + a bann on abortion in ireland bar medical necessity is the best way to reduce abortions as having to travel and fund one's abortion themselves is quite likely to be a deterrent to some.
So how many women a year would you be prepared to see being harmed in exchange for this alleged reduction in abortions? Personally speaking I think even one woman seriously harmed is too high a price to pay, seeing as the right to travel takes priority over thousands of abortions every year.0 -
Well that is quite simply untrue. The UK and the US both have laws (on child sex abuse or FGM iirc) which explicitly apply to their citizens anywhere in the world, regardless of what the law in the country where the act takes place says.
Ireland seems to have something similar concerning assisted suicide, going by the fact that a woman was denounced by a travel agent for trying to book a ticket to Switzerland for herself and her dying friend. She was tried and the jury took hours before acquitting her, so there was clearly a case to answer, ie it is illegal, even though they were going to a country where assisted suicide is legal.
So that claim is no more than a lie and a cop out.
Try telling that to Savita Hallapanavar's family. I'm sure it will be a great comfort to them.
The evidence shows that a ban on abortion has little to no effect on numbers of women having abortions, and instead merely causes women to be harmed by unsafe abortions.
So how many women a year would you be prepared to see being harmed in exchange for this alleged reduction in abortions? Personally speaking I think even one woman seriously harmed is too high a price to pay, seeing as the right to travel takes priority over thousands of abortions every year.
I assume you can provide links to reliable data sources?0 -
This has been addressed innumerable times on this thread ... most of these abortions are not acceptable ... but they are within the law in England ... and thus aren't illegal in Ireland, with or without the 13th.
There is no 'gaping hole' in the 13th ... and even if it was repealed, women, pregnant or otherwise, would be quite entitled to travel to England, or anywhere else ... and if they availed of lawful services, including abortion, while abroad, there would be nothing that could (or should) be done about it.
The 13th is the gaping hole in the 8th. And no, it's not true that nothing could be done about it. The AG put an injunction on the child in the X case for the duration of her pregnancy, and the court found that this could be done to someone else in the future. That was the reason for the 13th, to make travel legal for women to go abroad for abortion. It was illegal before that.Like I have said previously, a man can go to Spain and legally engage in bull fighting there ... and his partner can have an abortion there ... and they will face no legal consequences upon their return to Ireland ... provided they don't start bull fighting or aborting in Ireland.
So having an abortion is not a form of killing people and is closer to animal cruelty? In that case I think the ECJ will find that women are always entitled to prioritize their health over the unborn's right to life, because there is no way an animal has equivalent rights to a person under our laws or the ECHR.
That's the same POLDPA that meant a dead woman was left rotting on a life support machine, right? And the same law that several Irish obstetricians have said would quite possibly not save Savita Hallapanavar today either, precisely because her life was not at risk when she asked but the infection was so aggressive that it was already too late when her life (and not just health) was undeniably at risk.This is now addressed by the PLDPA.
I think it has been shown to have several major flaws, enough to say that POLDPA is probably not fit for purpose.Quote (Irish Times):-
The (maternal death) rate increased from 8.6 per 100,000 maternities in the period 2009-2011 to 10.5 in 2010-2012. However, the report says this increase is not statistically significant and the Irish rate is similar to the UK rate of 10.1. There was no evidence of clustering in any one maternity hospital.
Women born outside Ireland were over-represented in reported deaths, pointing to an increased risk for migrant ethnic minorities. Almost 39 per cent of deaths were among women born outside Ireland, while this group represented 24 per cent of all women giving birth.
“This raises issues as to how these women engage with Irish maternity services and the importance of the availability of interpretative services. A particular concern was the issue of engagement with the services by non-national patients in receipt of alternative medical advice from outside the country.”
So, basically getting non-national women to engage with medical services is the key to lowering maternal death rates in Ireland (back to lower than the current British rate, where they were historically) ... and not abortion ... except in very exceptional circumstances.
Every year about 10 women regrettably die while pregnant, with a wanted pregnancy ... but then about 30,000 people die in Ireland every year ... many unexpectedly.
Such is life ... death is an ever-present risk for everyone who is alive ... and it makes no sense to go around aborting women ... on the highly unlikely chance that they might die while pregnant.
... and abortion doesn't alleviate that risk anyway ... except in a very small number of cases, and the PLDPA is there for these cases.
Well no. I disagree very strongly that the POLDPA is enough.
Even if Savita Hallapanavar had not actually died in the end, seeing as she was having an inevitable miscarriage, she should have been allowed surgical termination simply because of the pain she was in and because letting her uterus remain infected increased the risk of leaving her infertile as a result.
The POLDPA does not allow for that, because the 8th has been found to make a woman's health irrelevant.
And the fact that pregnancy contains a small but unavoidable risk of death is exactly why women must be entitled to have a say about the degree of risk they are prepared to take, and the point at which they may choose to end that risk. The alternative is to leave them at the mercy of doctors. Like Savita Hallapanavar.
No, as I showed above.Looking at England and Wales, for example, 23 abortions to save the mothers life were performed in 2015 ... against total abortions of 190,000.
Our abortion 'ban' is no more or less effective than our 'ban' on bull fighting ... or the 'ban' on fox hunting in England.
The fact that there is a campaign to repeal the 8th, to facilitate the introduction of abortion on demand up to 12 weeks ... and abortion for specified reasons up to 9 months, proves that the 8th is indeed effective at saving unborn childrens lives, in Ireland, with full regard for the lives of pregnant women as well.
A woman should not have to accept that only her death is worth preventing, and that preserving her health is seen as unimportant, evem when there is no hope of saving the unborn.
Not many men would allow their health to be dismissed in that way.
All true, but none of which requires a legal ban on abortion, with the harm that this does to women.Education is indeed important in reducing abortion ... as well as a comprehensive suite of state-supported options, other than killing the child, being made available to women with 'crisis' pregnancies.
I would think that one of the biggest reasons for on-demand abortion is because the woman cannot countenance rearing the child, because of her particular circumstances ... and the availability of properly regulated adoption and fosterage could be the single greatest thing for winning over the hearts and minds of pregnant women, contemplating abortion.0 -
Katie Full Leak wrote: »I assume you can provide links to reliable data sources?
Before I start hunting those up again (they've been posted on here before iirc) what would you consider reliable?
Would a study published in a respected peer-reviewed scientific publication do you? Or are you going to dismiss whatever anyone might put up no matter what!?0 -
So having an abortion is not a form of killing people and is closer to animal cruelty? In that case I think the ECJ will find that women are always entitled to prioritize their health over the unborn's right to life, because there is no way an animal has equivalent rights to a person under our laws or the ECHR.
Of course that isn't what JC said, as you well know. :rolleyes:
He used bullfighting as an example of something that is illegal in one country, but is legal in another, and where we don't interfere with someone's human right to travel.Not many men would allow their health to be dismissed in that way.
Of course you have no way of knowing whether men would, or would not. You're just guessing.
Just as I'm guessing that no-one would try using a slogan such as "Trust men."
But, hey, I guess any half-truth is acceptable if you can try to use false accusations of sexism to bully half the population into not expressing their democratic opinions on a vital human rights issue.0 -
Perhaps a better analogy of the roles of the 8th and 13th Amendments would be the way in which we view Irish citizens and their participation in military action.
Our country has followed a policy of neutrality since the foundation of the State. So far, if my memory serves me well, we have not participated in any wars. Yet Irish citizens are free to travel to the UK, and serve in the British Army. And so Irish citizens have participated in wars in places like the Falklands or Iraq.
We don't say, "Hey, since Irish people are travelling to kill other people in wars, we might as well change our own policy and start invading the odd Middle Eastern country."
Nor do I hear anyone accusing us of Nimbyism or hypocrisy because peace-loving Irish citizens aren't trying to interfere with the right of any other Irish resident to go to the UK and join up.0 -
Why are these better comparisons? Because they don't show up the hypocrisy quite so completely?
You have a crime which is so serious that we have put it in our constitution, and have given it a possible FOURTEEN YEAR prison sentence - but it isn't reasonable to compare it to other serious crimes like child sex abuse or FGM, or even assisted suicide, whereas it is comparable to bull fighting and military service abroad?
That doesn't make sense. Except as a way of refusing to acknowledge the deliberate hypocrisy of our laws.
Yes we could make travel to terminate a pregnancy illegal if we wanted to, but instead we amended the constitution so that the X case could never happen again, ie, so that women and children could travel to terminate their pregnancies.
Let's at least be honest about this.0 -
Let's at least be honest about this.
I'm being honest.
I don't agree with preventing people from travelling, even if we think they will commit acts overseas that are illegal in Ireland but not in their destination country.
This is consistent with how we look at Irish men and women who join up in foreign armies and, yes, even kill children as part of their military duties.
You might not agree with my viewpoint, but your attempts to portray pro-lifers as hypocrites because they don't oppose the right to travel is bogus. You only resort to it out of desperation because your other arguments are frequently unconvincing or, as we established a few days ago, rely on making false statements.0 -
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Abortion is the killing of an innocent Human Being ... and thus is against the 6th Commandment ... and indeed it is repugnant to ordinary Human compassion and our collective humanity.
When it comes to war, some Christians are pacifists, for example the Quakers, ... and they refuse to kill in any war.
However, killing in war is morally justified in self defense ... or the defense of other people, when there is no alternative option available.
If an enemy attacks your country, it has the moral right to kill in self-defense. However, it must be strictly in self defense and with no alternative option available. This means, for example, that it would be immoral, to kill defenseless civilians or to execute enemy prisoners of war who have surrendered themselves and their weapons.
Who decides when its "Self defense and only alternative"? how can we be sure that those decisions aren't based on selfish motives? You say that an unborn baby is "innocent" how do we know that, especially where some forms of psychiatric illness(speaking of the serial killer type conditions) are inherited? additionally, how it is decided that say, child soldiers are or not "innocent"?
women who are being denied best practice in continuing pregnancies because of the 8th, are they not "innocents" in this too?"Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.
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