Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 11:18PM

david75 wrote: »

Ehh a mod just posted not to be posting these kinds of images. Just a friendly reminder

Do you not like the pictures? How are they offending you?

J C · 22-02-2018 11:22PM

david75 wrote: »

This same Leo has also said he’s supporting repealing the eighth, I don’t know but you guys seem to be unaware of that.

... and when he says it should be referred to as a baby and not a fetus ... you better believe him ... because he is on your side.

railer201 · 22-02-2018 11:24PM

Here are more of Leo's views on the present discussion around the 8th, note in particular he puts the mother's well being ahead of the foetus or unborn child.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/how-the-death-of-savita-halappanavar-changed-the-abortion-debate-461787.html

Clearly our politicians also have personal opinions and beliefs surrounding abortion and not just electoral concerns.

Parsing his contributions, it does seems that while Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has pledged to hold a referendum, he falls on the conservative side of the argument.

He appears likely to back terminations in the event of fatal foetal abnormality, rape and a serious threat to a woman’s health.

He has gone global on that, telling the New York Times recently: “While I don’t accept the view that the unborn child, the foetus, if you prefer that term, should have equal rights to an adult woman, to the mother, I don’t share this view that the baby in the womb, the foetus, whatever term you want to use, should have no rights at all.”

david75 · 22-02-2018 11:27PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Do you not like the pictures? How are they offending you?

They aren’t offending me at all.
They’re computer generated images though and being employed in a misleading manner.
A 12 week old foetus does not have fingernails in fact it’s handed are still fused.
Anyone believing those images are real need to ask how such a picture is possible to take (hint. It is not possible at all) and why isn’t every pregnant woman out there isn’t asking for such pictures rather than scratchy black and white ultrasound images.

Just to be straight. They’re believing camera was inserted into a woman’s womb breaking the sack and taking a perfectly lit photo of a foetus and with background lighting (how????) through the mother’s body to light it?

The ridiculousness is astounding. If you’ll believe images such as those are real you’ll believe anything.

J C · 22-02-2018 11:34PM

railer201 wrote: »

Here are more of Leo's views on the present discussion around the 8th, note in particular he puts the mother's well being ahead of the foetus or unborn child.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/how-the-death-of-savita-halappanavar-changed-the-abortion-debate-461787.html

He would say that, wouldn't he ... when he is proposing that the 8th be removed ... and abortion on demand be introduced.
However, his hesitency to dehumanise the baby with the term fetus, shows that he has very serious reservations about where all of this might head.

Leo doesn't need to worry, the pro-life movement 'has his back' on this ... and he will emerge in the happy position of having 'tried' to repeal the 8th (thereby keeping his pseudo-liberal supporters happy) ... and it will have failed ... thereby easing his conscience ... and keeping his pro-life supporters happy!!!
It will be a win, win, win result all round.:)

... a true poitical 'sweet spot'!!!

... and no man deserves it better.

end of the road · 22-02-2018 11:36PM

david75 wrote: »

I wasn’t threatening you at all.
Man you people really do like your hysteria and making stuff up

you are mixing us up with people elsewhere. we don't make things up or do hysteria.

david75 wrote: »

Ps a foetus is not a child. Unborn or otherwise.

a fetus is an unborn developing child, a human being and a human life, that has a right to life free from the threat of being slaughtered for contraceptive, lifestyle and convenience reasons. that can't be argued against.

david75 wrote: »

This same Leo has also said he’s supporting repealing the eighth, I don’t know but you guys seem to be unaware of that.

it doesn't change the facts, which he stated, that a fetus and a human being and an unborn child are one and the same.

david75 wrote: »

They aren’t offending me at all.
They’re computer generated images though and being employed in a misleading manner.
A 12 week old foetus does not have fingernails in fact it’s handed are still fused.
Anyone believing those images are real need to ask how such a picture is possible to take (hint. It is not possible at all) and why isn’t every pregnant woman out there isn’t asking for such pictures rather than scratchy black and white ultrasound images.

Just to be straight. They’re believing camera was inserted into a woman’s womb breaking the sack and taking a perfectly lit photo of a foetus and with background lighting (how????) through the mother’s body to light it?

The ridiculousness is astounding. If you’ll believe images such as those are real you’ll believe anything.

they show the realities.

david75 · 22-02-2018 11:39PM

J C wrote: »

He would say that, wouldn't he ... when he is proposing that the 8th be removed ... and abortion on demand be introduced.
However, his hesitency to dehumanise the baby with the term fetus, shows that he has very serious reservations about where all of this might head.

Leo doesn't need to worry, the pro-life movement 'has his back' on this ... and he will emerge in the happy position of having 'tried' to repeal the 8th (thereby keeping his pseudo-liberal supporters happy) ... and it will have failed ... thereby easing his conscience ... and keeping his pro-life supporters happy!!!
It will be a win, win, win result all round.:)

... a true poitical 'sweet spot'!!!

Can’t disagree with any of that basically because he’s a total opportunist and on this most important of topics he’ll sit on the fence and go where the winds are blowing. He’s totally hedging his bets.

I don’t trust him and I think he’s snake like and manipulative to such a degree he would put Bertie to shame.

No matter what the result of the referendum you can be sure he’ll come out and say it was what he supported and take credit for it. Bank on this.
He’s pretty much lying to both sides on this debate he only cares about his own political career.

J C · 22-02-2018 11:41PM

david75 wrote: »

They aren’t offending me at all.
They’re computer generated images though and being employed in a misleading manner.
A 12 week old foetus does not have fingernails in fact it’s handed are still fused.

Which part of these independent quotes about a 12 week old unborn baby do you not understand?
Quote:-
Your baby is starting to look more human every day. Her eyes have moved closer together and her tiny earlobes are taking shape. She's also gaining some of the skills she'll need after she's born. She can close her fingers to make a fist and use the muscles in her mouth to suck.

https://www.babycentre.co.uk/12-weeks-pregnant

Quote:-
Baby is able to flex his or her tiny fingers now that your third month of pregnancy is coming to an end. Those little nail beds that recently developed are already starting to sprout fingernails and toenails,"

david75 · 22-02-2018 11:45PM

J C wrote: »

Which part of these independent quotes about a 12 week old unborn baby do you not understand?
Quote:-
Your baby is starting to look more human every day. Her eyes have moved closer together and her tiny earlobes are taking shape. She's also gaining some of the skills she'll need after she's born. She can close her fingers to make a fist and use the muscles in her mouth to suck.

https://www.babycentre.co.uk/12-weeks-pregnant

Quote:-
Baby is able to flex his or her tiny fingers now that your third month of pregnancy is coming to an end. Those little nail beds that recently developed are already starting to sprout fingernails and toenails,"

Yeah cos fingernails are important in development.

J C · 22-02-2018 11:46PM

david75 wrote: »

Can’t disagree with any of that basically because he’s a total opportunist and on this most important of topics he’ll sit on the fence and go where the winds are blowing. He’s totally hedging his bets.

I don’t trust him and I think he’s snake like and manipulative to such a degree he would put Bertie to shame.

No matter what the result of the referendum you can be sure he’ll come out and say it was what he supported and take credit for it. Bank on this.
He’s pretty much lying to both sides on this debate he only cares about his own political career.

Leo is a thoroughly decent Human Being ... trying to do his best ... in the circumstances he finds himself in.

His humanity (and humility) on the issue is a refreshing thing ... and is in dramatic contrast with the extreme feminist position of 'my body alone ... and to hell with my child, if I don't want it'.
Leo is a good guy, on the side of the angels, on this one.
The fact that he is a Medical Doctor also gives him a unique insight into the conscience issue of being faced with kiling an unborn child ... which a thoroughly selfish woman and her partner is demanding be killed, just because they couldn't be bothered using contraception ... and now don't want the baby.
Its the 'unwanted puppy after Christmas' ... on steroids ... and it has to seriously mess with doctors minds!!!

railer201 · 22-02-2018 11:51PM

Here's the currents odds from Paddy Power

Vote to change/remove the 8th Amendment

3/10

Vote to leave the 8th Amendment unchanged

11/5

Speaks for itself

J C · 22-02-2018 11:52PM

david75 wrote: »

Yeah cos fingernails are important in development.

They're not particulary important ... but you were the one claiming that fingernails somehow 'proved' that Bob's photo couldn't be of 12 weeks old unborn baby.

Originally Posted by david75
"They aren’t offending me at all.
They’re computer generated images though and being employed in a misleading manner.
A 12 week old foetus does not have fingernails in fact it’s handed are still fused."

The fact of the matter is that 12 week olds do have separate fingers that they can suck as well as growing finger nails.

... now please stop 'flogging this dead horse' of an argument.

Bob_Marley · 22-02-2018 11:55PM

david75 wrote: »

They aren’t offending me at all.
They’re computer generated images though and being employed in a misleading manner.
A 12 week old foetus does not have fingernails in fact it’s handed are still fused.
Anyone believing those images are real need to ask how such a picture is possible to take (hint. It is not possible at all) and why isn’t every pregnant woman out there isn’t asking for such pictures rather than scratchy black and white ultrasound images.

They are not "computer generated images"- They are high resolution high quality photographs, that's what getty images supply.

The technology to take such high res photos has been around since the 60's

http://www.ct4women.com/pc_development.html

photographer Nilsson shot to world fame in 1965 when the American magazine Life ran 16 pages of pictures from his book "A Child is Born" showing the development of a human fetus in the womb.

http://100photos.time.com/photos/lennart-nilsson-fetus

david75 · 22-02-2018 11:55PM

railer201 wrote: »

Here's the currents odds from Paddy Power

Vote to change/remove the 8th Amendment

3/10

Vote to leave the 8th Amendment unchanged

11/5

Speaks for itself

What does that mean? I don’t know anything about odds.

Plus I don’t think Christians are allowed bet or gamble

J C · 23-02-2018 12:04AM

railer201 wrote: »

Here's the currents odds from Paddy Power

Vote to change/remove the 8th Amendment

3/10

Vote to leave the 8th Amendment unchanged

11/5

Speaks for itself

Whichever way anybody bets, and whatever the result ... those odds for either result won't make any punter up.

That looks like Paddy Power don't know which way it's going to go.

... they are literally 'hedging their bets' ... and I would agree with them on that.

railer201 · 23-02-2018 12:05AM

david75 wrote: »

What does that mean? I don’t know anything about odds.

Plus I don’t think Christians are allowed bet or gamble

It means that if you bet 10€ on removal of the 8th you will get €3 back plus the ten if the people win the vote to remove the 8th.

If you bet 5€ for the 8th to remain, you will get €11 back plus the five if the people win the vote for it to remain unchanged.

Therefore the first scenario is the more likely.

david75 · 23-02-2018 12:08AM

railer201 wrote: »

It means that if you bet 10€ on removal of the 8th you will get €3 back plus the ten if the people win the vote to remove the 8th.

If you bet 5€ for the 8th to remain, you will get €11 back plus the five if the people win the vote for it to remain unchanged.

Therefore the first scenario is the more likely.

Cool thank you. Never understood betting or odds or any of that.

railer201 · 23-02-2018 12:11AM

J C wrote: »

Whichever way anybody bets, and whatever the result ... those odds for either result won't make any punter up.

That looks like Paddy Power don't know which way it's going to go.

... they are literally 'hedging their bets' ... and I would agree with them on that.

You seem to be very certain of the outcome, 11/5 - double your money - not to be sneezed at.

J C · 23-02-2018 12:11AM

david75 wrote: »

What does that mean? I don’t know anything about odds.

Plus I don’t think Christians are allowed bet or gamble

David, your innocence on this matches your innocence on 12 week old unborn babies (as Leo would say).

One or two Christian denominations don't gamble ... but most Christians have no problem with it ... provided it's for fun and entertainment.

... and Paddy Powers odds are indicating that the repeal result will be 'yes' by a whisker ... or in other words, it could go either way, as far as they think.

david75 · 23-02-2018 12:14AM

J C wrote: »

David, your innocence on this matches your innocence on 12 week old unborn babies (as Leo would say).

One or two Christian denominations don't gamble ... but most Christians have no problem with it ... provided it's for fun and entertainment.

... and Paddy Powers odds are indicating that the repeal result will be 'yes' by a whisker ... or in other words, it could go either ways, as far as they think.

Again, bolding when you’ve been asked by a mod not to. Again insisting a zygote or foetus is a baby when it isn’t. Either medically or legally.

Round and round we go.

J C · 23-02-2018 12:15AM

railer201 wrote: »

You seem to be very certain of the outcome, 11/5 - double your money - not to be sneezed at.

Yes it's roughly 2 to 1 ... so Paddy Power are 'hedging their bets' on the result.

If they thought it was the 'dead cert', that the MSM keep crowing about ... the No vote would be out at 20 to 1 or higher.

david75 · 23-02-2018 12:18AM

JC you should read this thread. Real stories and experiences. Eye opening.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057844175/1/#post106226252

J C · 23-02-2018 12:21AM

railer201 wrote: »

You seem to be very certain of the outcome, 11/5 - double your money - not to be sneezed at.

Not when a 'slow horse on a fast day' ... could easily bring in 50 to 1 !!!;):pac:

Also, betting on the lives of unborn children is somewhat unseemly ... so I'll stick to the horses ... if that's allright with you.

J C · 23-02-2018 12:24AM

david75 wrote: »

Again, bolding when you’ve been asked by a mod not to. Again insisting a zygote or foetus is a baby when it isn’t. Either medically or legally.

Round and round we go.

David you really are a nit picker ... who needs a good 'schooling' from Leo, on the fact that a fetus is the scientific term for a baby.

Please repeat after Leo ... "a fetus is the scientific term for a baby".

Do so about 60 times ... and it will eventually 'sink in'.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

david75 · 23-02-2018 12:26AM

J C wrote: »

David you really are a nit picker ... who needs a good 'schooling' from Leo, on the fact that a fetus is the scientific term for a baby.

No. It’s really not. And I wouldn’t let Leo school me on anything.

Did you see the absolute state of his attempt at pancakes on shrove Tuesday??

Scarlet for him doesn’t come close.

He’s clueless about everything.

splinter65 · 23-02-2018 12:27AM

david75 wrote: »

Again, bolding when you’ve been asked by a mod not to. Again insisting a zygote or foetus is a baby when it isn’t. Either medically or legally.

Round and round we go.

So David have you decided yet wether you think as a committed Christian you can vote for unlimited abortion?

J C · 23-02-2018 12:31AM

david75 wrote: »

JC you should read this thread. Real stories and experiences. Eye opening.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057844175/1/#post106226252

Eyeopening allright.

What a very sad, sad situation.

... and so totally needless ... this misfortunate woman needs help to stop this self-destructive cycle of repeated abortions, that she has got in on ... and not encourgement to continue as she is.
It certainly doesn't indicate that abortion is any panacea for anything ... just heaping misery upon misery.

Quote:-
"As someone who unfortunately had to have multiple abortions I'd advise the following:

Plan your trip to precision, the last thing you need is more stress.

Take someone with you of course, you'll be emotional after the procedure and you don't want to be alone. If possible, let someone stay overnight with you.

The pain isn't too bad but I noticed I had difficulty lifting heavy items, and doing certain household chores such as vacuuming. It may come in handy to have someone help you in the first 48 hours.

You will be emotional and confused after the procedure, this is completely normal. Don't try to suppress it and talk to somebody if you need to.

There will be some bleeding afterwards, mine were quite heavy so I would advise pads and comfortable garment and use pain relief if you need it.

If at any point before the procedure you become emotional, confused, scared or feel like you want to change your mind please talk to the staff. This is completely normal and they understand what you're going through.

Even a " wanted" abortion is still a very emotional procedure, take it easy in the days after and do whatever feels good to you to stay comfortable. <mod snip> but whatever you've been through, I've been through it three times <mod snip>

Take care in the times to come."

That is the horror of abortion for the woman ... and what happens to her beautiful child doesn't even bear thinking about.

Can anybody see why many docotors, faced with situations, like this woman, have such reservations about abortion being anything but a disaster for both the mother and her child.

J C · 23-02-2018 12:34AM

david75 wrote: »

No. It’s really not. And I wouldn’t let Leo school me on anything.

Did you see the absolute state of his attempt at pancakes on shrove Tuesday??

Scarlet for him doesn’t come close.

He’s clueless about everything.

In fairness, Leo has never claimed to be a pastry cook ... just a good sport ... and a decent Human Being.

david75 · 23-02-2018 12:34AM

splinter65 wrote: »

So David have you decided yet wether you think as a committed Christian you can vote for unlimited abortion?

I’m not a commited Christian though?
I was born in 75 to two 16 year olds who were told by the church I couldn’t be baptised until they were married. They got married. Church still refused to baptise me. Wasn’t until we’d moved away to a different area and communion rolled around at 7, and I *had* to be baptised as I had no baptismal cert that I was.

So I was being punished by the church as were my parents for them having me out of wedlock. If they’d only had access to contraceptives none of this would have happened. But Ireland is still that place. A redundant church trying to control people’s lives.

What good can come from that?
None to my mind. They’re destroying their institution with their own stupidity and hubris.

end of the road · 23-02-2018 12:36AM

david75 wrote: »

No. It’s really not. And I wouldn’t let Leo school me on anything.

Did you see the absolute state of his attempt at pancakes on shrove Tuesday??

Scarlet for him doesn’t come close.

He’s clueless about everything.

yes it really is and leo is a qualified doctor so would know.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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