Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

recedite · 22-02-2018 12:35AM

Baile Chl ...Typed using the alt Gr tab.

Boards.ie translates it automatically into Ulster Scots. I hope this will be remedied after the ILA takes effect.

Professor Moriarty · 22-02-2018 12:38AM

recedite wrote: »

Baile Chl ...Typed using the alt Gr tab.

Boards.ie translates it automatically into Ulster Scots. I hope this will be remedied after the ILA takes effect.

Beidh sé.

recedite · 22-02-2018 12:40AM

Must be just my keyboard then. Infiltrated by the DUP when I wasn't looking.

Professor Moriarty · 22-02-2018 12:42AM

recedite wrote: »

Must be just my keyboard then. Infiltrated by the DUP when I wasn't looking.

A Protestant keyboard for a Protestant people.

Junkyard Tom · 22-02-2018 12:43AM

jm08 wrote: »

When people are looking at road signs, they are looking for a specific place and really don't take in the surrounding information. The name of the place they are going to will jump out of all the other placenames.

Foreign drivers, and local ones with a bit of cop-on, use the road numbers.

jm08 · 22-02-2018 12:45AM

recedite wrote: »

Like Baile Chl does?

I seem to recall that in Gaeltact areas, the signage is only in Irish. There were complaints that Dingle was only listed as An Daingean, whereas its tourism profile is known as Dingle (Dingle dolphin for example). Claregalway seems to be a similar problem.

Can't remember what happened in the end.

johnnyskeleton · 22-02-2018 12:49AM

recedite wrote: »

Must be just my keyboard then. Infiltrated by the DUP when I wasn't looking.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Protestant keyboard for a Protestant people.

Mod note:

Lets get back to the discussion please!

22-02-2018 01:10AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Exactly my point. Your attitude towards Ulster-Scots is reminiscent of the 1970s attitude towards Irish recalled in the Examiner article.

Arguing that Ulster-Scots may not be a language but a dialect is not the same as denigrating Irish with the term 'ould palaver'.

Also it appears some Unionists don't think it's a language either......

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/07/01/news/dup-founder-ulster-scots-is-not-a-language--1072597/

blanch152 · 22-02-2018 01:31AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Arguing that Ulster-Scots may not be a language but a dialect is not the same as denigrating Irish with the term 'ould palaver'.

Also it appears some Unionists don't think it's a language either......

https://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/07/01/news/dup-founder-ulster-scots-is-not-a-language--1072597/

Even if you have a point, this post below just proves the sneering attitude of republicans to Ulster-Scots. It seems that repeating the mistakes of the past with the shoe on the other foot is an acceptable point of view for good republicans.

charlie14 wrote: »

More Paul Howard`s Ross O`Carroll-Kelly than a distinct language.

McMurphy · 22-02-2018 09:40AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Even if you have a point, this post below just proves the sneering attitude of republicans to Ulster-Scots. It seems that repeating the mistakes of the past with the shoe on the other foot is an acceptable point of view for good republicans.

Just because people rightfully point out that Ulster Scots is a dialect of the English language (read any of Irvine Welshs books to more familiarise yourself with how dialects work.

Pointing out that it's English - albeit with a regional accent does not equate to sneering.

Further more, no one (I'm not even sure of Charlie is a republican) is speaking against the Ulster Scots speakers being granted an act , so what mistakes of the past are being made?

Edward M · 22-02-2018 11:13AM

On the languages issue, I'd say there are two distinct languages on this island, Irish and English.
Because SF are looking for an ILA, throwing US into the mix is just a distraction, a stupid counter to a recognised language.
The debate for me would be whether SFs insistence on an ILA is a good enough reason to say, no way Jose, to sitting down with another party and actually governing in NI.
I think thats stupid in itself, but I know there are other issues as well, regarding certain other rights.
But really its stupid from both sides that this language thing in any form is good enough reason not to govern.

McMurphy · 22-02-2018 11:37AM

Edward M wrote: »

On the languages issue, I'd say there are two distinct languages on this island, Irish and English.
Because SF are looking for an ILA, throwing US into the mix is just a distraction, a stupid counter to a recognised language.
The debate for me would be whether SFs insistence on an ILA is a good enough reason to say, no way Jose, to sitting down with another party and actually governing in NI.
I think thats stupid in itself, but I know there are other issues as well, regarding certain other rights.
But really its stupid from both sides that this language thing in any form is good enough reason not to govern.

Sigh.... once again.....

It's not solely an SF demand. It's the majority of party's up there.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Ahem.....

Five Stormont parties back Irish language act as Adams warns there'll be no assembly without legislation

Alliance's Paula Bradshaw, Green leader Steven Agnew, People Before Profit's Gerry Carroll, SDLP MLA Nicola Mallon and Sinn F president Gerry Adams join Conradh na Gaeilge's Niall Comer and Ciaran Mac Giolla Bhein during an event in support of an Irish language act. [/QUOTE]

charlie14 · 22-02-2018 01:34PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Just because people rightfully point out that Ulster Scots is a dialect of the English language (read any of Irvine Welshs books to more familiarise yourself with how dialects work.

Pointing out that it's English - albeit with a regional accent does not equate to sneering.

Further more, no one (I'm not even sure of Charlie is a republican) is speaking against the Ulster Scots speakers being granted an act , so what mistakes of the past are being made?

Am I a republican in the sense that I favour a 32 county Ireland.
Am I a SF supporter in that I have ever campaigned or voted for SF. No I am not.
That does not mean that like some when it comes to any political party or individual, be that SF or anyone else, I have a close minded George Orwellian character attitude of nothing other than four legs being good.

My point, which another poster seemed unable to comprehend is that in Paul Howard`s writings his principal character Ross O`Carroll-Kelly is quoted in a dialect pertinent to a particular area of Dublin.
I would not view that as a language, no more than I would view Cockney rhyming slang as a language.
Both are dialects based on the English language, and my opinion of Ulster Scot ( and that of EU experts as previously posted here) is that it is no different.

If the DUP want a dialect recognised as a language in their area of influence I have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is this faux outrage that it was somehow SF`s fault the negotiations collapse due to them having a problem with that.
Patently untrue.
The only party that had a problem was the DUP.
Not with a dialect, but with the universally recognised Irish language.

recedite · 22-02-2018 03:45PM

Imagine how American traffic signs would look if they had to give equal prominance to text in Navajo.
And Apache, and Sioux....

At some point you have to say "this is the lingua franca of the country. We respect all other languages and people are free to use them, but for official business we will stick to just the one."

Trying to juggle two is difficult and an expensive luxury. Trying to juggle 3 would be insane.

McMurphy · 22-02-2018 04:02PM

recedite wrote: »

Imagine how American traffic signs would look if they had to give equal prominance to text in Navajo.
And Apache, and Sioux....

At some point you have to say "this is the lingua franca of the country. We respect all other languages and people are free to use them, but for official business we will stick to just the one."

Trying to juggle two is difficult and an expensive luxury. Trying to juggle 3 would be insane.

What 3 are they trying to juggle in the north?

Is this a straw man argument with no relevancy to reality?

Ok carryon.

charlie14 · 22-02-2018 04:08PM

recedite wrote: »

Imagine how American traffic signs would look if they had to give equal prominance to text in Navajo.
And Apache, and Sioux....

At some point you have to say "this is the lingua franca of the country. We respect all other languages and people are free to use them, but for official business we will stick to just the one."

Trying to juggle two is difficult and an expensive luxury. Trying to juggle 3 would be insane.

I doubt that was Foster`s reason for backing out of what was agreed.
Cash for ash would come to mind long before fiscal rectitude in that regard.

recedite · 22-02-2018 04:21PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What 3 are they trying to juggle in the north?

Is this a straw man argument with no relevancy to reality?

Ok carryon.

Well, there's the one everyone speaks, and the one the shinners want everyone to speak, and the one the unionists claim they can speak.

McMurphy · 22-02-2018 04:44PM

recedite wrote: »

Well, there's the one everyone speaks, and the one the shinners want everyone to speak, and the one the unionists claim they can speak.

Sorry - my question is in relation to road signage.

Firstly where has the notion come from that SF "want everyone to speak" any language? Another straw man?

Secondly who is proposing any such measure of placing road signs in Ulster Scots/English/Irish?

Do you have any examples of Towns or cities in north with their names translated into Ulster Scots so as we can compare their differences (or not) and decide what sort of a conundrum this might be?

charlie14 · 22-02-2018 04:45PM

recedite wrote: »

Well, there's the one everyone speaks, and the one the shinners want everyone to speak, and the one the unionists claim they can speak.

What has any of that got do do with the title of this thread which is "Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal" in relation to the negotiations between themselves and the DUP being called off ?

SF had accepted the unionists proposal on a dialect, as you put it, the unionists claim they can speak. The negotiations were called off by the DUP because they would not do likewise for a universally recognised language.

It`s a simple as that and something no attempts at side-tracking over whether or not sign posts are or would be cluttered will disguise.

That is unless you are suggesting that the DUP called off the negotiations for aesthetic reason regarding signage.

McMurphy · 22-02-2018 05:11PM

I note that The European council have recommended that the uk govt move to introduce legislation to protect the Irish language and the rights of Irish speakers..

Of course the UK government can ignore them, but if direct rule resumes, it will be interesting to hear why the Tory party would refuse the north a language act that mirrors those already in place in other regions.

Edward M · 22-02-2018 05:18PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Sigh.... once again.....

It's not solely an SF demand. It's the majority of party's up there.

Alliance's Paula Bradshaw, Green leader Steven Agnew, People Before Profit's Gerry Carroll, SDLP MLA Nicola Mallon and Sinn F president Gerry Adams join Conradh na Gaeilge's Niall Comer and Ciaran Mac Giolla Bhein during an event in support of an Irish language act.

[/quote]

I don't think my post just covered SF. It included them all really.
Personally, given the situation, I think its just another diabolical political football used by whoever for whatever.
I know It needs to be implemented as such, but that could be worked on while other governing issues could be going on.

FrancieBrady · 22-02-2018 05:21PM

Edward M wrote: »

I don't think my post just covered SF. It included them all really.
Personally, given the situation, I think its just another diabolical political football used by whoever for whatever.
I know It needs to be implemented as such, but that could be worked on while other governing issues could be going on.

That is just ignoring the reality that politics has broken down because of intransigence.

Something had to cause a complete cessation and it just happens to be the ILA.

It is a deeper problem though.

Edward M · 22-02-2018 05:27PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is just ignoring the reality that politics has broken down because of intransigence.

Something had to cause a complete cessation and it just happens to be the ILA.

It is a deeper problem though.

I figured that anyway tbh Francie, but why not put out the other reasons?
I'd be thinking that even if the ILA was agreed on something else would come up.

Professor Moriarty · 22-02-2018 05:43PM

Edward M wrote: »

I figured that anyway tbh Francie, but why not put out the other reasons?
I'd be thinking that even if the ILA was agreed on something else would come up.

You could make a cogent argument for and against the ILA and that's the problem. It's very symbolic of the divide between the two communities and so Nationalists see it as representing parity of esteem whereas Unionists see it as further erosion NI's Britishness and consequently a bridge too far.

tayto lover · 22-02-2018 06:04PM

Eileen Paisley has come out and told both parties to get their act together. She blames both.
She said that what is happening now is undermining the good work her husband and Martin Mc Guinness worked for.
I'd say she carries a bit of weight into the debate.

FrancieBrady · 22-02-2018 06:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Eileen Paisley has come out and told both parties to get their act together. She blames both.
She said that what is happening now is undermining the good work her husband and Martin Mc Guinness worked for.
I'd say she carries a bit of weight into the debate.

The Paisley's are very sore about what happened to Ian Snr at the end.
They think the party shafted him.

recedite · 22-02-2018 06:49PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Do you have any examples of Towns or cities in north with their names translated into Ulster Scots so as we can compare their differences (or not) and decide what sort of a conundrum this might be?

I do not, and hopefully it will stay that way.
That is the one good thing about the shinners proposal for a standalone ILA.
However "in the interests of balance" Westminster previously promised to support Stormont's attempts to introduce extra provisions for both Irish and Ulster Scots.

recedite · 22-02-2018 07:01PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I note that The European council ...

That's a bit rich, seeing as they recently left Catalonia hanging out to dry. "Not our problem" according to the E Commission.

I suppose you are aware that there are far more regional languages in Europe than just the main ones.

The languages of France include the French language and some regional languages. The French language is the only official language of France according to the second article of the French Constitution, and is by far the most widely spoken.

When I see several different regional languages appearing on a French road sign, I'll know the lunatics have finally taken over the asylum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France

Professor Moriarty · 22-02-2018 07:11PM

recedite wrote: »

That's a bit rich, seeing as they recently left Catalonia hanging out to dry. "Not our problem" according to the E Commission.

I suppose you are aware that there are far more regional languages in Europe than just the main ones.
When I see several different regional languages appearing on a French road sign, I'll know the lunatics have finally taken over the asylum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France

Ever been to Brittany?

recedite · 22-02-2018 07:25PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ever been to Brittany?

No, but if the local authority votes to erect some signs in Breton, that is local democracy in action. Its not the same as a requirement to translate all national signs and publications, such as we have here in RoI.
Or a requirement for any child attending a state school to learn Breton.
We don't know exactly what the shinner proposal was, because its all a big secret.

Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

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