Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 01:09AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody buys the fearmongering/political grandstanding by unionists anymore

Says the person who defended a political party leader sneering the war-cry / catch-phrase of the PIRA. "Up the Rebels, tiocagh ar la"

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They had an agreement on paper after all.

Care to share a copy?

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 01:12AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But clearly in the North, on a policy basis, SF are powering ahead of the DUP.

Powering ahead with 6 seats they do not use compared to 10 seats the DUP do use.

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2018 01:12AM

charlie14 wrote: »

It was a political slogan, no more or less than the connotations contained in Ian Paisley Snr`s "No Surrender" for nationalists or Foster`s "crocodiles".
Attempting to dress it up as anything else is nothing but faux outrage imo.

You would be proven correct if you were in a world where 2 + 2 = 5.
The simple truth is that Forster was committed to doing the deal, (otherwise, May especially, would not have been within a hundred miles of Belfast let alone Varadkar), but the 10 usual suspects abroad in Westminster full of their own importance pulled the plug on her.

Because the 10 are sitting pretty for now.
Unionism has no memory obviously.
Signs are that rights will be delivered whether they want them to be or not. Just like the AIA, The GFA, Marching and Fleg reform etc etc rinse and repeat.

They must be sadists they seem to enjoy trying to salvage something from utter defeat, again and again. They never seem to learn or see the writing on the wall.

sdanseo · 21-02-2018 01:12AM

Holding the process up over an Irish Language Act or bilingual signs is foolish. But objecting so fiercely to it as the DUP are is also stupid - it won't hurt anyone who doesn't want to use the language.

There are larger priorirties. Like having a functioning government. These things can come later.

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 01:13AM

charlie14 wrote: »

It was a political slogan,.

hijacked by the PIRA, and heard by some unfortunate victims as their last words.

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2018 01:13AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

Says the person who defended a political party leader sneering the war-cry / catch-phrase of the PIRA. "Up the Rebels, tiocagh ar la"

Care to share a copy?

Contact Eamonn Mallie, no fan of SF. He has been writing about it all week.

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 01:20AM

sdanseo wrote: »

But objecting so fiercely to it as the DUP are is also stupid - it won't hurt anyone who doesn't want to use the language.

Wrong, the Irish language in Ireland has costs many billions, wasted money and has been used to discriminate against those not proficient in the language ( public service jobs etc).

sdanseo wrote: »

There are larger priorirties. Like having a functioning government. These things can come later.

Correct, SF should resume in Stormont and get the economy functioning again and not worry about the dead old Irish language ( which died out in the 1970's in N. Irelsnd) for another while.

charlie14 · 21-02-2018 01:20AM

recedite wrote: »

Nope. They would all still be MPs.
More so than SF in some ways, because at least they would still be attending the relevant parliament.

I have already posted the mathematical realities of how little difference it would have if SF took up their seats in Westminster and the reasons why they do not.

Grand for the 10 DUP abroad in Westminster still being MP`s.
Not that pleasant for Foster that with them stabbing her in the back she will more than likely have to resign as party leader in the event of direct rule.

A bit of a case of minding her "enemies" when the real danger to her were her "friends" is it not ?

sdanseo · 21-02-2018 01:26AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

Wrong, the Irish language in Ireland has costs many billions, wasted money and has been used to discriminate against those not proficient in the language ( public service jobs etc).

As someone who has applied for a couple of public service jobs (and ironically bailed out because of the inherent beaurocracy) I can assure you there is no requirement to have Irish other than to have passed the LC - unless of course you apply for something that specifically needs it.

We have different opinions about the language being dead. Personally I'd love to be better at it and feel if it had been taught properly at school rather than everyone regarding it as dead (teachers included) we'd probably all be fluent.

Havockk · 21-02-2018 01:29AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

So you think a lad from south Armagh, who speaks "Gaelic" and who worked as a researcher in Irish Language for RTE has no axe to grind?

lol

Considering he's one of the most able and respected journos ever to come out of NI, I'd have to say no.

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 01:29AM

sdanseo wrote: »

I can assure you there is no requirement to have Irish other than to have passed the LC

Any many people in N. Ireland do not want to have to have an O or A level in Irish to get a government job, or to get in to certain universities.

I am glad you admit it (Irish language) was used for discrimination here in the Republic.

sdanseo · 21-02-2018 01:35AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

Any many people in N. Ireland do not want to have to have an O or A level in Irish to get a government job, or to get in to certain universities.

If you are exempt from Irish you can naturally pass the LC without sitting the subject. Many thousands of students are exempt for various reasons.

There is no chance - zero - that any Irish language Act in the north would force the sitting of the subject on people who didn't wish to take it.

cycle4fun wrote: »

I am glad you admit it (Irish language) was used for discrimination here in the Republic.

Please don't put words in my mouth. That is neither what I said or what I meant, and I don't agree with the statement because it's hyperbole.

charlie14 · 21-02-2018 01:35AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

No surprise therefore the party with the most MP's in N. Ireland do not want to deal with her. What a silly woman McDonald is.

What a ridiculous and inane statement.

Do you actually know anything about the unionist policy of gerrymandering and denial of basic human rights in Northern Ireland that was for all intents and purposes not a million miles removed from the apartheid system of South Africa ?

ozmo · 21-02-2018 01:42AM

So I was leaving the Airport short term car park a few weeks ago - looking for the exit...

And it struck me as totally bizarre that the vital signage would give such prominence to the Irish Language...

Important warning signs state its the "Sli Amach" in huge letters and a tiny "way out" in small letters...

This is an international airport - and a huge majority will not understand the larger text - and road signs that people can understand at a glance are more important for safety than for nationalistic pride.

charlie14 · 21-02-2018 01:44AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

Looks like the Shinners misled May and Varadker, because when Foster was asked why May was there (in N.Ireland) she replied "you will have to ask her that", or words to that effect.

It has backfired on the shinners now anyway, everyone but their hardcore supporters can see through them. An own goal, as the OP says.

Stop being ridiculous.

It is nothing but laughable to attempt to sell the suggestion that SF told May that a deal was going to be done when Foster is/was the leader of a party that is propping May up in government in London

sdanseo · 21-02-2018 01:45AM

ozmo wrote: »

So I was leaving the Airport short term car park a few weeks ago - looking for the exit...

And it struck me as totally bizarre that the vital signage would give such prominence to the Irish Language...

Important warning signs state its the "Sli Amach" in huge letters and a tiny "way out" in small letters...

This is an international airport - and a huge majority will not understand the larger text - and road signs that people can understand at a glance are more important for safety than for nationalistic pride.

Almost all signs in the airport follow this identical format. Irish first as per the law, but English more prominent by virtue of being in the same colour as the arrows or symbols.
https://www.dublinairport.com/images/default-source/default-album/road-directional-mape9eb418b73386836b47fff0000600727.jpg?sfvrsn=0

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 01:47AM

charlie14 wrote: »

What a ridiculous and inane statement.

Do you actually know anything about the unionist policy of gerrymandering and denial of basic human rights in Northern Ireland that was for all intents and purposes not a million miles removed from the apartheid system of South Africa ?

The past was a different time, but there was no comparision between either the government in N. Ireland or here in the Republic with the arartheid system of South Africa. MOPE's were not found on this island, except in their heads.

ozmo · 21-02-2018 01:52AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Almost all signs in the airport follow this identical format. Irish first as per the law, but English more prominent by virtue of being in the same colour as the arrows or symbols.
https://www.dublinairport.com/images/default-source/default-album/road-directional-mape9eb418b73386836b47fff0000600727.jpg?sfvrsn=0

Thanks - but not what the signs on the walls where the exit ramps are like - they are large lettered Gaeilge with small english text underneath

Whatever about road names- which are welcome to see in Irish - I can see a very valid reason for keeping safety road signs, and motor way exit instructions plain, uncluttered with as little text as possible to make them easy to read at a glance.

charlie14 · 21-02-2018 01:53AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

2 words out of 5 does not carry the meaning of the 5 words.

We are now into the mathematics on word count as to the value of disparaging comments it seems.

To quote Dougal "Thats mad Ted".

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 02:01AM

Youngpensioner wrote: »

As someone who grew up there I can tell you it certainly was an apartheid state

You should have visited South Africa "during its day".

In N.Ireland in the 70 years from 1921 to 1991 the percentage of catholics increased. In the 26 counties the percentage of protestants decreased from 1921 to 1991. Now which state do you think there was the most discrimination in? South Africa, N. Ireland or the 26 counties?

charlie14 · 21-02-2018 02:13AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

The past was a different time, but there was no comparision between either the government in N. Ireland or here in the Republic with the arartheid system of South Africa. MOPE's were not found on this island, except in their heads.

That past for you does not appear to be far removed from your wishes by your "what a silly woman" comment.

But thanks for clearing up that you have no idea what the system in Northern Ireland was under the unionist boot of gerrymandering and denial of basic civil rights.

For your information, as you clearly do not know, it was not a system that was given up voluntarily by unionists. Any changes were forced upon them, kicking and screaming, by the London government when London could no longer ignore the international pressure the stink of their system was creating.

cycle4fun · 21-02-2018 02:23AM

charlie14 wrote: »

For your information, as you clearly do not know, it was not a system that was given up voluntarily by unionists.

The unionists agreed to the referendum in 1973 in N. Ireland on wanting to stay in the UK or join the Rep. of Ireland. Everyone, over the age of 18, was entitled to vote.

To compare N. Ireland to S. Africa is crazy. N. Ireland Catholics were not MOPEs (Most Oppressed People Ever ).

blanch152 wrote: »

Once again the chasm in understanding between the two sides in the North is shown up by the crass defence of the sectarian remarks of Mary Lou. The failure to understand how divisive that phrase is explains an awful lot.

Until both sides learn how to tone down the offensive language, and until people stop trying to defend it, there will be little hope for long-term reconciliation.

Correct. Some people here in the Republic were expecting better from Mary Lou, and were surprised at her offensive remarks at the end of her speech, but the Unionists were proved correct. They were not surprised who was still running the SF show. The Unionists gave them a chance, they went in to government with them. Bear in mind many politicians here in the Republic said they would never go in to government with Sinn Fein. But the SF women have pulled the plug, they politicised the Irish language, their leaders comments (using what many would think was the PIRA battle cry ) was the straw that broke the camels back I believe and now everyone will suffer. Well done Michelle and MaryLou - not. All for a dead bloody language than only a few thousand people in the Republic filled their census forms out in.

OP was correct : Yes Sinn Fein scored a major own goal.

McMurphy · 21-02-2018 08:36AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

2 words out of 5 does not carry the meaning of the 5 words.

Fairly predictable.(I predicted goal posts being moved though)

Paisley used the phrase made famous by his father beforehand. I just missed the faux outrage from the usual suspects on here or the media. Go figure.

cycle4fun wrote: »

And EVERYONE knows that a deal is possible, if the Sinn Fein stop blackmailing and politicising a language which is not used much even here in the Republic ( only some thousands of people bothered filling out the census forms as gaelige in the last census here ).

Ahem.....

Five Stormont parties back Irish language act as Adams warns there'll be no assembly without legislation

The Sinn F leader was speaking as five Stormont parties came together in Belfast to voice support for legislation to promote and protect Irish.

Sinn F, the SDLP, Alliance, the Greens and People Before Profit are backing the calls, with Irish language advocacy group Conradh na Gaelige saying [/b]50 of the 90 MLAs now support proposed legislation – a majority in the assembly.[/B]

[/QUOTE]

Alliance's Paula Bradshaw, Green leader Steven Agnew, People Before Profit's Gerry Carroll, SDLP MLA Nicola Mallon and Sinn F president Gerry Adams join Conradh na Gaeilge's Niall Comer and Ciaran Mac Giolla Bhein during an event in support of an Irish language act.

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2018 09:17AM

Locked for mod review.

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2018 09:30AM

Thread reopened. Rereg troll banned. I've tried to limit deleting posts.

Thanks,
ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2018 10:17AM

ozmo wrote: »

Thanks - but not what the signs on the walls where the exit ramps are like - they are large lettered Gaeilge with small english text underneath

Whatever about road names- which are welcome to see in Irish - I can see a very valid reason for keeping safety road signs, and motor way exit instructions plain, uncluttered with as little text as possible to make them easy to read at a glance.

This is really ridiculous and almost the equivalent of 'who will think of the children'.

Are there figures for the numbers of people trapped in the airport because of bilingual signage?

Signage, it may suprise you, is almost a science at this level and a lot of thought will have gone into design and clarity. Font weights and font choice, point size and colour are all considerations. Modern cities have a whole library of experience in dealing with imparting information in many languages.
The fact you are at home writing that post is testament to it's success.

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2018 10:32AM

Don't respond to the troll please, Francie.

blanch152 · 21-02-2018 11:29AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is really ridiculous and almost the equivalent of 'who will think of the children'.

Are there figures for the numbers of people trapped in the airport because of bilingual signage?

Signage, it may suprise you, is almost a science at this level and a lot of thought will have gone into design and clarity. Font weights and font choice, point size and colour are all considerations. Modern cities have a whole library of experience in dealing with imparting information in many languages.
The fact you are at home writing that post is testament to it's success.

Actually it is not a science anymore in the South, thanks to the Irish language act.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/comharthai-trachta?lang=EN

Here is just one example of safety concerns about the requirement for bilingualism:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-irish-language-signs-ordered-for-luas-despite-safety-concerns-676648.html

Having bilingual signs is not a low-cost measure, as this article shows:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hefty-cost-in-translation-for-the-wild-atlantic-way-v0v7mnfvq

Locals up in arms over usage of Irish-only signs:

http://connachttribune.ie/growing-concern-about-lack-of-english-language-motorway-signage-for-claregalway/

This is an interesting perspective on how an ILA or even a Minority Languages Act might encourage ghettosiation and increase division:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/features/bosnia-taught-me-how-languages-can-be-used-to-foster-division-i-never-want-to-see-that-here-36586309.html

All in all, it seems to me that there are many people who have sloganised the demand for an ILA without understanding what it would mean and what would result from it. The lack of response to my questions about what an ILA would contain are an indication of that.

FrancieBrady · 21-02-2018 11:40AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Actually it is not a science anymore in the South, thanks to the Irish language act.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/comharthai-trachta?lang=EN

No idea what your point is here. If a sign is designed for safety it will be done using principles of design. If it isn't that is not the fault of bi-lingualism.

Here is just one example of safety concerns about the requirement for bilingualism:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/new-irish-language-signs-ordered-for-luas-despite-safety-concerns-676648.html

Clutter is a 'concern' but not a problem for good designers.

Having bilingual signs is not a low-cost measure, as this article shows:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hefty-cost-in-translation-for-the-wild-atlantic-way-v0v7mnfvq

If somebody messes up originally, retrospective fixing will always cost money. Get it right from the beginning.

Locals up in arms over usage of Irish-only signs:

http://connachttribune.ie/growing-concern-about-lack-of-english-language-motorway-signage-for-claregalway/

You will get no argument from me that the FF FG powershare over the years has completely messed up our language policy.

This is an interesting perspective on how an ILA or even a Minority Languages Act might encourage ghettosiation and increase division:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/life/features/bosnia-taught-me-how-languages-can-be-used-to-foster-division-i-never-want-to-see-that-here-36586309.html

All in all, it seems to me that there are many people who have sloganised the demand for an ILA without understanding what it would mean and what would result from it. The lack of response to my questions about what an ILA would contain are an indication of that.

No, it is not a sign of anything but an unwillingness to entertain somebody who only wishes to see the negatives.

See your own posting on this.

McMurphy · 21-02-2018 11:47AM

The lack of response to my questions about what an ILA would contain are an indication of that.

How can anyone here answer what the act would contain when so far, it hasn't been leaked/ released to the media?

What we do know however, is that it had been seen by all the relative party's north/south and the UK - and had apparently been agreed upon, until (and not for the first time) the DUP decided they wanted to throw the toys out of the pram seemingly by the hard-core grassroots members.

Should direct rule be imposed, the irony will be that the yuk parliament will prob stream roll into law the 'Birtishness' the DUP want to hang on to - and implement a language act (like in Wales and Scotland) and SSM.

They'll possibly look at the stupid outdated laws that exist up there surrounding Sunday's too (try doing business in a major store early on a Sunday up there).

Some irony.

Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

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