Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C · 18-02-2018 07:41PM

david75 wrote: »

‘Facts’ from the ‘life institute’?

Grasping at straws there JC. They’re hardly unbiased and those figures look like they were totted up on the back of a napkin.

Like all estimates, you can argue with the detail and assumptions ... but it is a good upper limit on the number of unborn children saved to date because of the 8th.

... it also works the other way ... and it is likely that 250,000 extra Irish unborn children will be killed in abortion over the next 30 years, if the 8th is repealed now.

david75 · 18-02-2018 07:42PM

I was at a pro life rally in front of the Dail last summer on molesworth st. There were about 3000 people there. I will say young and old.
The alarming part was it was predominantly the very old and mostly grandparents, and the very young, their grandkids they’d brought along for the day. All balloons and speeches those kids really shouldn’t be exposed to but that’s another story.
There was a glaringly obvious lack of anyone between mid teens to mid 40s.
A handful. If that.

Delirium · 18-02-2018 07:43PM

david75 wrote: »

‘Facts’ from the ‘life institute’?

Grasping at straws there JC. They’re hardly unbiased and those figures look like they were totted up on the back of a napkin.

And don't forget that your suggestion of majority support for repeal based on polls was dismissed as having no basis in reality.

Some folk do like their double-standards.

J C · 18-02-2018 07:49PM

uptherebels wrote: »

well then provide evidence that both young and old ireland are both strongly pro life.
So far you have shown that there are some young pro lifers in ireland. Some young people does not equal young ireland, so again please provide evidence showing such.

I think that the referendum will prove that.

... so I guess we will both have to wait and see.

NuMarvel · 18-02-2018 07:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

voting no will protect the unborn's right to life within the constitution, and will protect some unborn babies from being killed. even if it only protects 1, that's 1 less unborn baby killed.

This is an odd statement from a poster that's said they're voting no because they want to have their preferred abortion regime (or in your lingo, unborn baby killing regime) put into the constitution.

And it's an utterly bizarre statement from someone who's said they'd vote against overturning the freedom to travel because it might inconvenience some other people.

J C · 18-02-2018 07:52PM

Delirium wrote: »

And don't forget that your suggestion of majority support for repeal based on polls was dismissed as having no basis in reality.

Some folk do like their double-standards.

We don't dismiss polls ... we just have a healthy skepticism about them.

They failed to predict the result of the British General Election, Brexit and Trump (at every stage of his campign).

Skepticism is merited IMO.

uptherebels · 18-02-2018 07:55PM

J C wrote: »

I think that the referendum will prove that.

... so I guess we will both have to wait and see.

So you have no evidence then. What was that you were saying about not being able to see the made up bit:rolleyes:

david75 · 18-02-2018 07:58PM

J C wrote: »

We don't dismiss polls ... we just have a healthy skepticism about them.

They failed to predict the result of the British General Election, Brexit and Trump (at every stage of his campign).

Skepticism is merited IMO.

It has been found that A firm has been engaged that were used to push brexit and thousands of twitter bots engaged by the PLC to bomb twitter with plc arguments and agenda. Twitter and Facebook do not have the reach or influence in Irish society that it does in America.
(Again where is the money coming from to pay this organisation?)

Irish people predominantly have their minds made up on this and it’s all over bar the shouting as they say.

Timberrrrrrrr · 18-02-2018 08:01PM

J C wrote: »

If she tells nobody about it, then nothing can or will be done about it.
... but why would she do that ?

If you were raped by a man would you report it? I woukdnt!

david75 · 18-02-2018 08:02PM

Tbh I don’t trust a pro lifer unless they’re totally vegan at the very least.

If you’re pro life, All life is precious or none is. So if they’re meat eaters they’re hypocrites:)

end of the road · 18-02-2018 08:12PM

david75 wrote: »

You’re in another thread where several participants are outraged by the use of graphic imagery on billboards held by campaigners of the PLC and their young kids seeing it making them upset. And you’re defending the use of the posters.

That is the definition of plc shooting itself in the foot on display 100%. You’re deluding yourself if you can’t see that.

That kind of campaigning IS turning people off your campaign and you can’t see it.
The same lies scaremongering and misleading tactics were used in marref and it lost it for the no campaign.

Want proof??

The no campaign LOST.

It’s wishful thinking on your part that these all aren’t realities but they are I’m glad to tell you.

there is no evidence the pro-life campaign is shooting itself in the foot, or that showing the realities of abortion is turning people off the campaign. those who may claim to have been turned off the campaign by being shown reality, were always pro-choice anyway, and are just looking for a way out of their fear of giving their view. there is no delusian on the part of the pro-life, the pro-life do not engage in lies scaremongering and misleading tactics. the only thing that lost the marriage equality for the no campaign was they had no actual argument in the first place. you have no evidence for your claims, they are wishful thinking with no basis in reality.

J C wrote: »

It's a lot more than one.

It is estimated that the 8th has prevented over 250,000 unborn children being aborted since it was introduced.
Here is the methodology for establishing this figure.
Quote:-
“It’s estimated that 250,000 Irish people are alive today because abortion wasn’t available in Ireland”

Figures provided by the Life Institute show that it was calculated in this way:

Calculate the abortion rate in Ireland and in Britain every year since 1984, the year after the 8th Amendment was implemented
Assume abortion became legal in 1984, and apply the British abortion rate to the number of pregnancies in Ireland every year
All other things being equal, this yields the number of abortions that would have occurred in Ireland without the ban on abortion
The difference between this number, and the number of abortions actually undergone by Irish women in England and Wales is, according to the rubric, the number of abortions prevented by the 8th Amendment and the abortion ban
That number is 270,520

this is fantastic to read.

david75 wrote: »

‘Facts’ from the ‘life institute’?

Grasping at straws there JC. They’re hardly unbiased and those figures look like they were totted up on the back of a napkin.

not at all, we know that it is quite likely the 8th and the trip to britain does put some people off having an abortion.

david75 · 18-02-2018 08:26PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no evidence the pro-life campaign is shooting itself in the foot, or that showing the realities of abortion is turning people off the campaign. those who may claim to have been turned off the campaign by being shown reality, were always pro-choice anyway, and are just looking for a way out of their fear of giving their view. there is no delusian on the part of the pro-life, the pro-life do not engage in lies scaremongering and misleading tactics. the only thing that lost the marriage equality for the no campaign was they had no actual argument in the first place. you have no evidence for your claims, they are wishful thinking with no basis in reality.

this is fantastic to read.

not at all, we know that it is quite likely the 8th and the trip to britain does put some people off having an abortion.

Please back up that last statement with proof. The only thing stopping a woman travelling is most often financial. And even that’s an easy workaround.

The rest of your post is fiction and in itself wishful thinking and refusal to acknowledge not only the history of the last referendum and what’s going on right now in this one.
Just because you wish to believe people arent being turned off by PLC tactics you think there arent any.

That’s a fantasy land wish fulfilment that nobody can help you with cos it’s not reality. You’re losing by refusing to deal with the real.

Timberrrrrrrr · 18-02-2018 08:38PM

david75 wrote: »

Please back up that last statement with proof. The only thing stopping a woman travelling is most often financial. And even that’s an easy workaround.

The rest of your post is fiction and in itself wishful thinking and refusal to acknowledge not only the history of the last referendum and what’s going on right now in this one.
Just because you wish to believe people arent being turned off by PLC tactics you think there arent any.

That’s a fantasy land wish fulfilment that nobody can help you with cos it’s not reality. You’re losing by refusing to deal with the real.

Do you real8se who are asking to post proof?????? :pac:

J C · 18-02-2018 08:54PM

Delirium wrote: »

And don't forget that your suggestion of majority support for repeal based on polls was dismissed as having no basis in reality.

Some folk do like their double-standards.

I never said such a thing.
The double standards are all yours.!!:)

david75 · 18-02-2018 08:55PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you real8se who are asking to post proof?????? :pac:

There definitely seems to be an alternative reality thing going on. Or wishing for one at least.
Alternative ‘facts’ presented as truths.
Straight out of the same playbook that corroded US democracy and gave us Trump.

‘If you repeat a lie often enough, it often becomes the truth’ seems to be the game plan.

It isn’t working. They don’t seem to have realised, bless em

J C · 18-02-2018 08:59PM

uptherebels wrote: »

So you have no evidence then. What was that you were saying about not being able to see the made up bit:rolleyes:

What kind of evidence do you want?

Polls have been shown to be unreliable when it comes to elections.

... so, it is a reasonable to wait and see IMO.

end of the road · 18-02-2018 09:03PM

david75 wrote: »

Please back up that last statement with proof. The only thing stopping a woman travelling is most often financial. And even that’s an easy workaround.

The rest of your post is fiction and in itself wishful thinking and refusal to acknowledge not only the history of the last referendum and what’s going on right now in this one.
Just because you wish to believe people arent being turned off by PLC tactics you think there arent any.

That’s a fantasy land wish fulfilment that nobody can help you with cos it’s not reality. You’re losing by refusing to deal with the real.

i'm not losing anything.

david75 wrote: »

There definitely seems to be an alternative reality thing going on. Or wishing for one at least.
Alternative ‘facts’ presented as truths.
Straight out of the same playbook that corroded US democracy and gave us Trump.

‘If you repeat a lie often enough, it often becomes the truth’ seems to be the game plan.

It isn’t working. They don’t seem to have realised, bless em

showing the realities and giving the facts will work. even if it doesn't help in keeping the unborn's right to life in the constitution, long term people will wake up to the realities of abortion. they have woken up to other barbaric acts in the past and have put a stop to them, and they will do the same for abortion, whether it's years or decades until it happens.

J C · 18-02-2018 09:06PM

david75 wrote: »

There definitely seems to be an alternative reality thing going on. Or wishing for one at least.
Alternative ‘facts’ presented as truths.
Straight out of the same playbook that corroded US democracy and gave us Trump.

‘If you repeat a lie often enough, it often becomes the truth’ seems to be the game plan.

It isn’t working. They don’t seem to have realised, bless em

... what a bunch of unfounded generalisations ... you really have excelled yourself this time ... you might even win 'pro-abort of the year' for this almost perfect performance in denial and unfounded claims.

... you guys who cannot even face up to the fact that you are proposing to kill Human Beings in abortion ... and are denying the obvious humanity of 12 week old unborn children.

J C · 18-02-2018 09:12PM

david75 wrote: »

It has been found that A firm has been engaged that were used to push brexit and thousands of twitter bots engaged by the PLC to bomb twitter with plc arguments and agenda. Twitter and Facebook do not have the reach or influence in Irish society that it does in America.
(Again where is the money coming from to pay this organisation?)

Irish people predominantly have their minds made up on this and it’s all over bar the shouting as they say.

Fair enough ... you're entitled to your POV.

There will be no shouting on the pro-life side ... all that needs to be shown is what is proposed ... abortion on demand of 12 week old unborn children and the complete removal of all constitutional protection for the unborn with the repeal of the 8th.

Somebody on the pro-abortion side has said that Irish people want a small amount of abortion ... and they may well be right.

What is proposed however, is a large amount of abortion ... possibly, an unlimited amount of abortion.

uptherebels · 18-02-2018 09:18PM

J C wrote: »

What kind of evidence do you want?

Polls have been shown to be unreliable when it comes to elections.

... so, it is a reasonable to wait and see IMO.

Any at all. No point in making claims you cant back up, then trying deflect when you are called on it

J C · 18-02-2018 09:50PM

uptherebels wrote: »

Any at all. No point in making claims you cant back up, then trying deflect when you are called on it

I know of many deeply committed pro-life people of all ages.
They're on the side of the angels ... and that is something that the pro-abortion advocates don't have on their side ... and it isn't picked up on opinion polls.

... so we'll have to wait and see ... if the Irish People are going to personally sign the death warrant for up to 250,000 unborn children, over the next generation.

It's never happened anywhere else before, that people have been asked to personally authorise abortion on demand ... so we're in uncharted territory.

Delirium · 18-02-2018 09:55PM

J C wrote: »

I never said such a thing.
The double standards are all yours.!!:)

JC, I would appreciate if you would cease misrepresenting my posts.

J C · 18-02-2018 10:00PM

Delirium wrote: »

JC, I would appreciate if you would cease misrepresenting my posts.

Where have I misrepresented your post?

Can we get back to whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion please?

Delirium · 18-02-2018 10:09PM

J C wrote: »

Where have I misrepresented your post?

Can we get back to whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion please?

No. I said i wouldn't interact due to your posts.

You subsequently misrepresent a post of mine again to suggest I said something about you I didn't.

You can either quote the post or apologise.

david75 · 18-02-2018 10:16PM

J C wrote: »

Fair enough ... you're entitled to your POV.

There will be no shouting on the pro-life side ... all that needs to be shown is what is proposed ... abortion on demand of 12 week old unborn children and the complete removal of all constitutional protection for the unborn with the repeal of the 8th.

Somebody on the pro-abortion side has said that Irish people want a small amount of abortion ... and they may well be right.

What is proposed however, is a large amount of abortion ... possibly, an unlimited amount of abortion.

I meant the endless echo chamber shouting as here.

You dont seem to realise what repealing the 8th or preserving it actually does.

The 8th has no bearing on abortion on demand. At all.

If you believe any Irish government would legislate for that, you are actually living in a different reality. Not this one.

Please back up your claim that unlimited abortion for all is being proposed.

You can’t. Cos it isn’t.

It would stand to your best interest to read up what this referendum is ACTUALLY about rather than the endless fear monger is and nonsense you seem to believe and post.

Achasanai · 18-02-2018 10:19PM

J C wrote: »

I know of many deeply committed pro-life people of all ages.
They're on the side of the angels ... and that is something that the pro-abortion advocates don't have on their side ... and it isn't picked up on opinion polls.

It isn't picked up in opinion polls (thankfully) because they tend not to reflect the viewpoints of angels (or unicorns, for that matter).

J C wrote: »

... so we'll have to wait and see ... if the Irish People are going to personally sign the death warrant for up to 250,000 unborn children, over the next generation.

This is the crux of the matter, and actually means that a Christian can very well vote for repealing the 8th. It all depends on whether one sees it as an unborn child or a fetus. As you mentioned previously, the Bible says 'thou shalt not kill', so it depends on what you see: an unborn child or a fetus. This is why there has been a complex relationship over the millennia between abortion and Christianity, with at one point the Catholic Church determining life beginning not at conception but after 'the quickening'. What did 'the angels' think of all this? As far as I'm aware, the Bible doesn't specifically mention abortion, but even if it did, there is plenty of rules and regulations (particularly in the Old Testament) that Christians do not follow anymore.

J C wrote: »

It's never happened anywhere else before, that people have been asked to personally authorise abortion on demand ... so we're in uncharted territory.

It has happened before, both here and elsewhere.

Timberrrrrrrr · 18-02-2018 11:12PM

J C wrote: »

I know of many deeply committed pro-life people of all ages.
They're on the side of the angels ... and that is something that the pro-abortion advocates don't have on their side ... and it isn't picked up on opinion polls.

... so we'll have to wait and see ... if the Irish People are going to personally sign the death warrant for up to 250,000 unborn children, over the next generation.

It's never happened anywhere else before, that people have been asked to personally authorise abortion on demand ... so we're in uncharted territory.

J C wrote: »

Fair enough ... you're entitled to your POV.

There will be no shouting on the pro-life side ... all that needs to be shown is what is proposed ... abortion on demand of 12 week old unborn children and the complete removal of all constitutional protection for the unborn with the repeal of the 8th.

Somebody on the pro-abortion side has said that Irish people want a small amount of abortion ... and they may well be right.

What is proposed however, is a large amount of abortion ... possibly, an unlimited amount of abortion.

Labelling people PRO ABORTIONbecaise they are pro choice is as insulting as me labeling you PRO CHILD ABUSE because you support the RCC.

Delirium · 18-02-2018 11:21PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Labelling people PRO ABORTIONbecaise they are pro choice is as insulting as me labeling you PRO CHILD ABUSE because you support the RCC.

MOD NOTE

Ignoring that JC isn't Catholic, could you please not needlessly throw around provocative labels?

It adds noise to an already diminishing signal in this thread.

Thanks for your attention.

uck51js9zml2yt · 18-02-2018 11:42PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Labelling people PRO ABORTIONbecaise they are pro choice is as insulting as me labeling you PRO CHILD ABUSE because you support the RCC.

I doubt many who are pro life in this thread support the RCC.
If repealing the 8th and knowingly allowing for the legislation to introduce abortion isn't pro arbortion, what is it?
We know the government are planning on introducing unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks or as Delirium has said , the abortion of a viable foetus.(paraphrased).

Let's not forget that it looks like a human and not an orange but of courses im told it's not a human. though the saying "Walks like a duck, quaks like a duck" springs to mind:)

But do carry on, I'm going to bed!

Timberrrrrrrr · 18-02-2018 11:44PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

I doubt many who are pro life in this thread support the RCC.
If repealing the 8th and knowingly allowing for the legislation to introduce abortion isn't pro arbortion, what is it?
We know the government are planning on introducing unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks or as Delirium has said , the abortion of a viable foetus.(paraphrased).

Let's not forget that it looks like a human and not an orange but of courses im told it's not a human. though the saying "Walks like a duck, quaks like a duck" springs to mind:)

But do carry on, I'm going to bed!

Its pro choice as in the woman has a CHOICE whereas before she had no choice!

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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