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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #2642
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    My words because it was said in this thread that it's not a human being. No one has told me what it is?
    I still think the fetus is a human being but "obviously" I'm wrong... obviously:D

    It's so much easier to kill something rather than someone!
    you didn't answer my question. Why would a pregnancy that's at 39 weeks require the child/foetus/<insert preferred term here> to be killed?

    Why not just deliver and treat the woman?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2643
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Baseline car crash crazy in this thread.

    Throwing out biblical quotes when it suits them, but ignoring them as it applies to themselves.


  • #2644
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    While I don't accept your suggestion that brain-dead isn't legally recognized as dead, my own answer would be no.

    Legally alive at the minimum would have to disqualify from the category of brain dead.
    ... except an unborn child, from the moment of conception isn't brain dead ... or dead at all ... its very much alive.

    We need to remember that pregnancy is temporary ... but abortion is permanent.


  • #2645
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Citation for this "legal definition" please.
    http://leaving-well.org/legal-definition-of-death.php

    "Definition of death. An individual is dead if the individual has sustained either: irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions; or. irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem."

    in practice, the irreversible stopping of the Heart is the normal way a doctor pronounces a person as dead.

    Brain function is normally only assessed, where that is an issue in a particular case and/or where organs are being donated for transplantation ... and the heart has to be allowed continue beating right up to the momant the organs are harvested, thereby killing the patient. in this case the patient is proonounced dead on the basis of lack of brain activity ... to legally protect the doctors who then kill the patient, by removing the organs.

    There is no ethical issue with any of this BTW.


  • #2646
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... except an unborn child, from the moment of conception isn't brain dead ... or dead at all ... its very much alive.

    We need to remember that pregnancy is temporary ... but abortion is permanent.

    You do understand what the term "brain dead" means?

    I only ask as I'm not aware of any medical or scientific test that would confirm a zygote is alive by the standard we decide if someone is/ isn't brain dead.

    Personally, I would have thought that the absence of even the beginnings of a brain form would be a massive fail right there. But maybe you can educate me otherwise.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #2647
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    http://leaving-well.org/legal-definition-of-death.php

    "Definition of death. An individual is dead if the individual has sustained either: irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions; or. irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem."

    in practice, the irreversible stopping of the Heart is the normal way a doctor pronounces a person as dead.

    Brain function is normally only assessed, where that is an issue in a particular case and/or where organs are being donated for transplantation ... and the heart has to be allowed continue beating right up to the momant the organs are harvested, thereby killing the patient.
    I do believe that's brain dead right there.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2648
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Delirium wrote: »
    you didn't answer my question. Why would a pregnancy that's at 39 weeks require the child/foetus/<insert preferred term here> to be killed?

    Why not just deliver and treat the woman?

    What's to stop abortion up to 12 weeks becoming abortion whenever you want? It's up to 24 weeks in Greece or forced abortions at 8 months in China!


  • #2649
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    There's more risk to the woman than if she takes an abortion pill. It should be up to her if it's a risk she's willing to take rather than forcing her to.
    It should be up to her to make the decision on whether to risk becoming pregnant or not ... once she becomes pregnant, there are two lives involved ... and she needs to responsibly follow through, with what she has started, barring some situation of extremis arising.


  • #2650
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    I do believe that's brain dead right there.
    It is ... so what is your point?


  • #2651
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    david75 wrote: »
    Baseline car crash crazy in this thread.

    Throwing out biblical quotes when it suits them, but ignoring them as it applies to themselves.

    David, you said it wasn't a human being...what is it ? None of the pro choice advocates seem to want to provide an answer. Perhaps you will since you initially said it?


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  • #2652
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    It’s very easy to be pro life when you’re not the one left holding the baby.

    well at least there is a living breathing baby and a living breathing mother. with abortion, the baby is killed.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    I don’t see it as killing a baby. It’s terminating a pregnancy.

    factually however it's killing an unborn human being. even if you don't see it that way, that's the actual reality.
    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    I know that and you know that but those who advocate abortion as a right seem to differ... but they won't tell me what it's supposed to be and how we're wrong in our understanding of biology and how the human genome works!

    because they can't. they know they can't argue against reality. so they have to resort to the dehumanization tactic. it's a tactic that has always worked for societies in the past, when they removed rights from people who those societies deemed to be lesser, so it's not surprising it's tried.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Whatever euphemism you use, you are denying women bodily autonomy, potentially putting their lives in danger, interfereing in the private healthcare of another person, and treating females as second class citizens,

    everyone of us have our bodily autonomy restricted in some way, that's just life. nobody is interfering in the private health care of another person, just preventing them from killing the unborn within the state. females are not being treated as second class citizens by being prevented from killing the unborn, however if the 8th is repealed, the unborn will become 8th class citizens for a time, which will slowly increase as time goes on.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2653
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    What's to stop abortion up to 12 weeks becoming abortion whenever you want? It's up to 24 weeks in Greece or forced abortions at 8 months in China!
    You cited 39 weeks in your scenario but have failed to explain why an early delivery wouldn't take place?

    And for the umpteenth time, I have never once voiced support for the notion of forced abortions. Not at 8 seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks or months in the pregnancy.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2654
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    You do understand what the term "brain dead" means?

    I only ask as I'm not aware of any medical or scientific test that would confirm a zygote is alive by the standard we decide if someone is/ isn't brain dead.

    Personally, I would have thought that the absence of even the beginnings of a brain form would be a massive fail right there. But maybe you can educate me otherwise.
    The primary legal definition of death is the irreversible stopping of the heart ... brain death is only a secondary definition ... used where there is catastrophic brain damage ... or where organ donation is happening.

    It is a very good legal question, if you are legally pronounced dead, when your heart stops beating ... shouldn't you be legally pronounced alive ... when your heart starts beating?
    The answer is obvious ... that you should be legally pronounced alive ... when your heart starts beating, which is 3 weeks after fertilisation.


  • #2655
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    You do understand what the term "brain dead" means?

    I only ask as I'm not aware of any medical or scientific test that would confirm a zygote is alive by the standard we decide if someone is/ isn't brain dead.

    Personally, I would have thought that the absence of even the beginnings of a brain form would be a massive fail right there. But maybe you can educate me otherwise.
    There is no issue with measuring brain activity ... when the legal definition of being alive is to have a heart beat.
    ... and to be legally dead is to not have a heart beart.


  • #2656
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    It should be up to her to make the decision on whether to risk becoming pregnant or not ... once she becomes pregnant, there are two lives involved ... and she needs to responsibly follow through, with what she has started, barring some situation of extremis arising.
    And we're back to abstinence or sex being only for reproduction.

    J C wrote: »
    It is ... so what is your point?
    You suggested brain dead wasn't part of the legal definition of dead.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2657
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Delirium wrote: »
    You cited 39 weeks in your scenario but have failed to explain why an early delivery wouldn't take place?

    And for the umpteenth time, I have never once voiced support for the notion of forced abortions. Not at 8 seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks or months in the pregnancy.
    I never said you voiced support for it but we open the door and leave it to the legislature to legislate....of course we can trust them for all time to do the "right" thing.

    It's 24 weeks in parts of the US. It's to the point of viability in the Netherlands. Where does it end?

    But of course it's not a baby, it's not a human being. The invaders of Africa said the same thing about its inhabitants. The Nazi said the same things about the Jews...they're not human. Look where that got us!


  • #2658
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The primary legal definition of death is the irreversible stopping of the heart ... brain death is only a secondary definition ... used where there is catastrophic brain damage ... or where organ donation is happening.

    It is a very good legal question, if you are legally pronounced dead, when your heart stops beating ... shouldn't you be legally pronounced alive ... when your heart starts beating?
    The answer is obvious ... that you should be legally pronounced alive ... when your heart starts beating, which is 3 weeks after fertilisation.
    J C wrote: »
    There is no issue with measuring brain activity ... when the legal definition of being alive is to have a heart beat.
    ... and to be legally dead is to not have a heart beart.

    I have to admit, it is truly fascinating to see you post a legal definition of dead and subsequently ignore the section that causes your argument problems.

    requoting your post containing the complete legal definition:
    J C wrote: »
    The primary legal definition of death is the irreversible stopping of the heart ... brain death is only a secondary definition ... used where there is catastrophic brain damage ... or where organ donation is happening.

    It is a very good legal question, if you are legally pronounced dead, when your heart stops beating ... shouldn't you be legally pronounced alive ... when your heart starts beating?
    The answer is obvious ... that you should be legally pronounced alive ... when your heart starts beating, which is 3 weeks after fertilisation.
    J C wrote: »
    http://leaving-well.org/legal-definition-of-death.php

    "Definition of death. An individual is dead if the individual has sustained either: irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions; or. irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem."

    in practice, the irreversible stopping of the Heart is the normal way a doctor pronounces a person as dead.

    Brain function is normally only assessed, where that is an issue in a particular case and/or where organs are being donated for transplantation ... and the heart has to be allowed continue beating right up to the momant the organs are harvested, thereby killing the patient. in this case the patient is proonounced dead on the basis of lack of brain activity ... to legally protect the doctors who then kill the patient, by removing the organs.

    There is no ethical issue with any of this BTW.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2659
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    david75 wrote: »
    Baseline car crash crazy in this thread.

    Throwing out biblical quotes when it suits them, but ignoring them as it applies to themselves.
    I knew that when properly challenged, the pro-abortion case falls totally apart ... but I must say I'm surprised at the total lack of any case being made for abortion on this thread.

    ... and we're now apparently down to personal attacks on the pro-abort side.


  • #2660
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    I never said you voiced support for it but we open the door and leave it to the legislature to legislate....of course we can trust them for all time to do the "right" thing.
    you do realise that legislature are people, same as those that enacted the 8th. It the human capacity for doing the right evaporate in the 1980s?
    It's 24 weeks in parts of the US. It's to the point of viability in the Netherlands. Where does it end?
    Wherever the citizenry of Ireland decides it to end.
    But of course it's not a baby, it's not a human being. The invaders of Africa said the same thing about its inhabitants. The Nazi said the same things about the Jews...they're not human. Look where that got us!
    Is this directed at me or is it a monologue?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2661
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    What's to stop abortion up to 12 weeks becoming abortion whenever you want? It's up to 24 weeks in Greece or forced abortions at 8 months in China!

    Abortion on request in Greece is only available up to 12 weeks. And that's been the case since the law was introduced 34 years ago.


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  • #2662
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    I have to admit, it is truly fascinating to see you post a legal definition of dead and subsequently ignore the section that causes your argument problems.
    How does the definition of death cause any problems with my argument that life legally begins (and ends) with a heartbeat?


  • #2663
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    I knew that when properly challenged, the pro-abortion case falls totally apart ... but I must say I'm surprised at the total lack of any case being made for abortion on this thread.

    ... and we're now apparently down to personal attacks on the pro-abort side.

    I think he was more referring to the off topic crusade you went on earlier in the thread where you all but denied the possibility that a woman might not come forward after being raped because if it happened to you, you would have no problem reporting it.

    Many, many intelligent, relevant posts have been made as to why abortion should be legal here, but if you choose to ignore them that’s your own problem.
    As you said yourself, there are none who are so blind as those who refuse to see.


  • #2664
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Delirium wrote: »
    you do realise that legislature are people, same as those that enacted the 8th. It the human capacity for doing the right evaporate in the 1980s?

    Wherever the citizenry of Ireland decides it to end.


    Is this directed at me or is it a monologue?
    Glad you said that. So abortion time limits really have no limits !

    It's more a summary of the history of man than a monologue but you knew that.... I hope !


  • #2665
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    I never said you voiced support for it but we open the door and leave it to the legislature to legislate....of course we can trust them for all time to do the "right" thing.

    It took our politicians 30 years to legislate just for the woman's right to life in the 8th. And it took a Supreme Court case, two referendums, and a case to the ECHR for them to do that.

    If there's one thing we can trust politicians with, it's being very slow to change abortion laws.


  • #2666
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    How does the definition of death cause any problems with my argument that life legally begins (and ends) with a heartbeat?

    You're suggesting that it is the only reason. Your own post shows that not to be so.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2667
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Katie Full Leak wrote: »
    Glad you said that. So abortion time limits really have no limits !
    Only those that society imposes.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2668
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    How does the definition of death cause any problems with my argument that life legally begins (and ends) with a heartbeat?

    Because a person can be brain dead, i.e. legally dead, and still their heart beats.

    You also contend that a zygote is legally alive. The absence of both a heart and a brain would say otherwise.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2669
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    It took our politicians 30 years to legislate just for the woman's right to life in the 8th. And it took a Supreme Court case, two referendums, and a case to the ECHR for them to do that.

    If there's one thing we can trust politicians with, it's being very slow to change abortion laws.
    ... they're going for a 'big bang' this time though ... they're proposing the removal of all constitutional protection for the unborn and abortion on demand up to 12 weeks ... with a 'nod and a wink' that abortion law will match England's law sooner rather than later, once the 8th is repealed.

    ... and here is Sharon Osbourne's experience of abortion:-
    Quote:-
    "Sharon Osbourne, reality star and talent-show judge on the British X Factor TV show, suffered three miscarriages due to damage to her cervix after having had an abortion at age 17.

    She recounted: “I had an abortion at 17 and it was the worst thing I ever did . . . I went alone. I was terrified. It was full of other young girls, and we were all terrified and looking at each other and nobody was saying a bloody word. I howled my way through it, and it was horrible. I would never recommend it to anyone because it comes back to haunt you. When I tried to have children, I lost three — I think it was because something had happened to my cervix during the abortion.”
    http://www.lifenews.com/2014/06/05/sharon-osbourne-having-an-abortion-was-the-worst-thing-i-ever-did/

    Is this the best we can do for our young women?


  • #2670
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Delirium wrote: »
    Only those that society imposes.

    So if society one days says 35 weeks or kill them just as they're being born , that's ok with you?


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  • #2671
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... they're going for a 'big bang' this time though ... they're proposing the removal of all constitutional protection for the unborn and abortion on demand up to 12 weeks ... with a 'nod and a wink' that abortion law will match England's law sooner rather than later, once the 8th is repealed.

    ... and here is Sharon Osbourne's experience of abortion:-
    Quote:-
    "Sharon Osbourne, reality star and talent-show judge on the British X Factor TV show, suffered three miscarriages due to damage to her cervix after having had an abortion at age 17.

    She recounted: “I had an abortion at 17 and it was the worst thing I ever did . . . I went alone. I was terrified. It was full of other young girls, and we were all terrified and looking at each other and nobody was saying a bloody word. I howled my way through it, and it was horrible. I would never recommend it to anyone because it comes back to haunt you. When I tried to have children, I lost three — I think it was because something had happened to my cervix during the abortion.”
    http://www.lifenews.com/2014/06/05/sharon-osbourne-having-an-abortion-was-the-worst-thing-i-ever-did/

    Is this the best we can do for our young women?
    And what about all the testimonials from women who say it was right for them?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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