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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #2582
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    It isn’t more important than the wants and needs of the woman carrying it.

    It was said that the fetus isn't a human life..I'm asking what kind of life it is.


  • #2583
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Are you really this naive or are you just being obtuse? Many people in ireland go to the "family" doctor and a woman may feel that she cannot talk to him/her.

    The faxt of the matter is that as long as the 8th is there then women will have to go through the trauma of travelling to the UK for an abortion. Hopefully that will change very soon.
    There is a doctor on call service for anybody who doesn't wish to go to the family doctor ... and if a woman has indeed been raped I think she would go to any doctor, to be treated properly. Indeed her friends would equally ensure that she received all appropriate medical treatment.


  • #2584
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    It’s grand to say having to travel for an abortion isn’t traumatic, when you, a man, will never have to go through the distress of having a crisis pregnancy or have to travel to procure said abortion. It’s so dismissive.

    Such horrible language in this thread... ‘pump and dump’ ... ‘too posh to push’ ... An absolutely disgusting way to speak about women. Women who could be your wife, daughter, sister, or friend.
    Women whose circumstance you’ll never know.

    What qualifies the pro life side to dictate what is best for women they’ll never meet?
    What makes them a better judge than the woman themselves of what they can and cannot cope with?

    I think some people are borderline obsessed with the potential bedroom activities of strangers they’ll never meet (worrying about how or why people have ONS) that if they put that much effort into improving the support and opportunities for children and families who are actually HERE, there would be no need for abortion at all.

    what qualifies the state to decide that someone should not commit acts that bring undue harm or bring death upon others? after all, the state will never know each individual so why should it implement such restrictions, and why should it dictate what's best for society? there is currently no need for abortion on demand at all anyway, so as much as i completely agree with you that we need to do way way better in terms of supports, it's not relevant to this particular debate because there is no dispute on the matter from most people.
    there may be some in the pro-life and pro-choice sides who may be obsessed with the bedroom activities of others but most of us couldn't care a less, some of us are at the same activities and more anyway.
    our only concern is to insure the unborn remain to have the protections they currently do and it is clear that repealing the 8th won't deliver this. if the government had put forward proper proposals such as facilitating abortion in medical circumstances only which would protect the unborn as much as is practical, allow for abortion where necessary and allow repeal of the 8th which would solve other issues, then that would have been the best solution and would have got a hell of a lot more support including from many of us on the pro-life side. it is the government's fault there is a divide in relation to repealing the 8th.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2585
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    What claims does your piety morals and faith have in a woman’s body and self determination?

    the laws in relation to prohibiting the killing of the unborn, have the same place in a woman's body and self-determination as all the other laws that prohibit her from commiting acts that would bring undue hardship or death upon others. if you don't want morality which is the basis behind those laws, to have a place in a woman's body or self-determination, then we have to exempt women from the laws of the land.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    It isn’t more important than the wants and needs of the woman carrying it.

    i'm afraid the unborn's right to life trumps the wants of the woman carying it. if she wants an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant, the rights of the unborn trump her want as an example. the unborn's right to life won't trump her needs however, such as requiring her life to be saved, both pro-life and pro-choice are in agreement abortion must be caried out where medical necessity requires it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2586
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    There is a doctor on call service for anybody who doesn't wish to go to the family doctor ... and if a woman has indeed been raped I think she would go to any doctor, to be treated properly. Indeed her friends would equally ensure that she received all appropriate medical treatment.

    Nope, sorry, you can’t make assumptions like that.
    Unless you yourself have been a victim of rape you cannot going around chastising about what a woman would or should do if she has been sexually assaulted.
    What you ‘think’ should happen is no reflection on the actual statistics, which is that a large portion of rapes go unreported.
    You don’t have a clue.


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  • #2587
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    david75 wrote: »
    I do. A foetus isn’t a baby. Nor a human life.
    There is none so blind, as he who will not see.
    You're not going to increase your credibility with these kind of obvious fallacies.

    Man-up and face the reality of your position ... I will not still agree with you, but at least I can respect you for saying what you mean and meaning what you say.

    ... and not dancing around with semantics about what the technical term is for the stage of life of the unborn Human Beings that you want others to be allowed kill with impunity.


  • #2588
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm afraid the unborn's right to life trumps the wants of the woman carying it. if she wants an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant, the rights of the unborn trump her want as an example. the unborn's right to life won't trump her needs however, such as requiring her life to be saved, both pro-life and pro-choice are in agreement abortion must be caried out where medical necessity requires it.

    No, EOTR, in my OPINION the fetuses right to life does not trump the woman’s needs and wants.

    Hopefully after the referendum the law will be changed to reflect same.


  • #2589
    Bredabe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,413 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    J C wrote: »
    There is a doctor on call service for anybody who doesn't wish to go to the family doctor ... and if a woman has indeed been raped I think she would go to any doctor, to be treated properly. Indeed her friends would equally ensure that she received all appropriate medical treatment.

    That logic assumes that the woman and or her friends know that EC exists and how to access it. Additionally to the cost and the emotional cost of accessing it. You would be shocked how many youngsters don't know it does. The recent publicity around a woman refusing EC in the case of rape will put off people who did know about it as well.

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



  • #2590
    Bredabe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,413 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    end of the road wrote: »
    the laws in relation to prohibiting the killing of the unborn, have the same place in a woman's body and self-determination as all the other laws that prohibit her from commiting acts that would bring undue hardship or death upon others. if you don't want morality which is the basis behind those laws, to have a place in a woman's body or self-determination, then we have to exempt women from the laws of the land.



    i'm afraid the unborn's right to life trumps the wants of the woman carying it. if she wants an abortion because she doesn't want to be pregnant, the rights of the unborn trump her want as an example. the unborn's right to life won't trump her needs however, such as requiring her life to be saved, both pro-life and pro-choice are in agreement abortion must be caried out where medical necessity requires it.

    Just last weekend, my colleague was told that there was "no medical condition" in which abortion/termination is a cure. Even in the case she and an anti-choicer were discussing( a case that ended in hysterectomy and the loss of triplets) as the Dr's had to wait for a legal decision, mum almost bled to death. So you are in error that there is agreement in the pro-life camp on that.

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



  • #2591
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bredabe wrote: »
    Just last weekend, my colleague was told that there was "no medical condition" in which abortion/termination is a cure. Even in the case she and an anti-choicer were discussing( a case that ended in hysterectomy and the loss of triplets) as the Dr's had to wait for a legal decision, mum almost bled to death. So you are in error that there is agreement in the pro-life camp on that.

    i would agree there will be differing views in both movements. my statement wasn't saying that every single person agreed, all though re-reading it i should have been clearer to that.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #2592
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Nope, sorry, you can’t make assumptions like that.
    Unless you yourself have been a victim of rape you cannot going around chastising about what a woman would or should do if she has been sexually assaulted.
    What you ‘think’ should happen is no reflection on the actual statistics, which is that a large portion of rapes go unreported.
    You don’t have a clue.
    Why do these 'rapes' go unreported?
    If a woman was raped would she not be determined, to get justice for herself and ensure that no other woman would have to go through what she just went through, with that particular man ... and she would go straight to the Gardai and report the rapist.

    If I was assaulted, I can tell you I wouldn't waste a second before asking for medical assistance, and reporting my assailant to the Gardai.
    That's what happens with burglaries and common assault ... the victims (male or female) diall 999 immediately ... or if they are injured or traumatised, their neighbours or friends will diall 999 ... and the Gardai and the medical professionals will take it from there.
    I can't see why a women who is raped (or her friends) wouldn't do the exact same thing ... and I'm quite sure that's exactly what they do.


  • #2593
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Bredabe wrote: »
    That logic assumes that the woman and or her friends know that EC exists and how to access it. Additionally to the cost and the emotional cost of accessing it. You would be shocked how many youngsters don't know it does. The recent publicity around a woman refusing EC in the case of rape will put off people who did know about it as well.
    Please don't be so patronising about intelligent adult women !!!

    If somebody is physically assaulted ... of which rape is the most serious manifestation ... everybody knows enough to seek medical help and report it to the Gardai.
    The medical professionals and the Gardai will take it from there.


  • #2594
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    Why do these 'rapes' go unreported?
    If a woman was raped would she not be determined, to get justice for herself and ensure that no other woman would have to go through what she went through with that particular man ... and she would go straight to the Gardai and report the rapist.

    I don't buy this carry-on where a woman is supposedly raped ... and it takes her months to 'realise' that she was raped ... after endless conversations with her besties.
    If I was assaulted, I can tell you I wouldn't waste as second before asking for medical assistance, and reporting my assailant to the Gardai.
    That's what happens with burglaries and common assault ... the victims (male or female) diall 999 ... or if they are injured or traumatised, their neighbours or friends will diall 999 ... and the Gardai and the medical professionals will take it from there.
    I can't see why a women who is raped (or her friends) wouldn't do the exact same thing ... and I'm quite sure that's exactly what they do.

    I genuinely can’t believe what I’m reading here. You are so ignorant and arrogant it’s astounding.

    Even your use of the phrase ‘endless conversations with her besties’ is highly dismissive. How dare you belittle such a serious thing!

    Did it ever occur to you for maybe, I don’t know, one minute????? That we don’t all react to situations in the same manner?
    Perhaps she’s embarrassed or ashamed. Perhaps she’s trying to get her head around what happened.
    Perhaps she wrongly thinks it’s her own fault. Perhaps her attacker is known to her and she’s afraid of repercussions if she reports what happened.
    There are literally thousands of reasons as to why she might be reluctant or might delay reporting being assaulted.

    I have to say the lack of respect is you seem to have for women is very upsetting.
    You can’t see past your own perspective. You have tunnel vision.
    Just because that is how YOU would react, does not mean that is how EVERYONE would react.

    And just because someone reacts differently does not give you the right to dismiss or question what happened to them. You have no right.

    No wonder women are afraid to come forward with people like you around!!!!!!!!!


  • #2595
    Schorpio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭Schorpio


    Can I ask a simple question of the pro-lifers in this thread - who are you to judge?

    You all go on about what's morally (and spiritually) right and wrong, but at the end of the day, the big man upstairs has the final (and only) say. If that is indeed that case, then you can all carry on doing you, and you'll have your eternal bliss when the time comes.

    I don't remember Jesus ever judging, or looking down upon anybody. So, do you think he'd be proud of you all if he came back and read some of what you've been posting in this thread? I highly doubt it.


  • #2596
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    It isn’t more important than the wants and needs of the woman carrying it.

    Where did anyone claim anyone's right to life is more important than someone else's ? That's actually the pro-abortion false argument - that one human life is inferior/superior to another, or worse someones 'wants and needs' is more important than the human right to live of another. - have you logically thought that through as to what that type of mentality means for society ?


  • #2597
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Where did anyone claim anyone's right to life is more important than someone else's ? That's actually the pro-abortion false argument - that one human life is inferior/superior to another, or worse someones 'wants and needs' is more important than the human right to live of another. - have you logically thought that through as to what that type of mentality means for society ?

    Yes. We take care of our born, living, breathing citizens first and priorities their wants and needs. Then we worry about the unborn after.


  • #2598
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    Please don't be so patronising about intelligent adult women !!!

    If somebody is physically assaulted ... of which rape is the most serious manifestation ... everybody knows enough to seek medical help and report it to the Gardai.
    The medical professionals and the Gardai will take it from there.

    Please read this link before posting any more misinformation. https://www.rapecrisis.ie/statistics.html

    A 2015 study showed that 65% of sexual assaults that occur are NOT reported to Gardai.


  • #2599
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Yes. We take care of our born, living, breathing citizens first and priorities their wants and needs. Then we worry about the unborn after.
    Whether we worry about the unborn before or after the born ... we don't have the right to kill them.


  • #2600
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Yes. We take care of our born, living, breathing citizens first and priorities their wants and needs. Then we worry about the unborn after.


    and how exactly do you worry about them by killing them ?


  • #2601
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,531 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Schorpio wrote: »
    Can I ask a simple question of the pro-lifers in this thread - who are you to judge?

    who are we to judge anyone who commits an act that brings harm or death upon others? well, as a society, we have a right, and an obligation to mitagate as much as is practical, against people commiting acts that bring harm or death upon others, and to condemn those people's actions. whether that be via the law punishing them, or telling them that what they did was wrong and they have no right to commit such an act.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Yes. We take care of our born, living, breathing citizens first and priorities their wants and needs. Then we worry about the unborn after.

    we take care of the born and the unborn at the same time, equally. we prioritize all needs unless medical necessity requires otherwise, for which the mother is always prioritized. this is the only just way, hence thankfully in this state we have protections for the unborn. we cannot take care of the born without taking care of the unborn, for without the unborn who are developing, there will be no born.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #2602
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    I genuinely can’t believe what I’m reading here. You are so ignorant and arrogant it’s astounding.

    Even your use of the phrase ‘endless conversations with her besties’ is highly dismissive. How dare you belittle such a serious thing!

    Did it ever occur to you for maybe, I don’t know, one minute????? That we don’t all react to situations in the same manner?
    Perhaps she’s embarrassed or ashamed. Perhaps she’s trying to get her head around what happened.
    Perhaps she wrongly thinks it’s her own fault. Perhaps her attacker is known to her and she’s afraid of repercussions if she reports what happened.
    There are literally thousands of reasons as to why she might be reluctant or might delay reporting being assaulted.

    I have to say the lack of respect is you seem to have for women is very upsetting.
    You can’t see past your own perspective. You have tunnel vision.
    Just because that is how YOU would react, does not mean that is how EVERYONE would react.

    And just because someone reacts differently does not give you the right to dismiss or question what happened to them. You have no right.

    No wonder women are afraid to come forward with people like you around!!!!!!!!!
    Does any other victim of crime worry about what people will say if they report the crime? ... they certainly will not.
    They will be determined to seek justice for themselves and prevent other victims by taking the criminal out of circulation.
    Rape victims shouldn't worry about what people will say ... and I'm sure that they don't ... because people will have nothing but sympathy for them.


  • #2603
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    Does any other victim of crime worry about what people will say if they report the crime? ... they certainly will not.
    They will be determined to seek justice for themselves and prevent other victims by taking the criminal out of circulation.
    Rape victims shouldn't worry about what people will say ... and I'm sure that they don't ... because people will have nothing but sympathy for them.

    You don’t have a clue.
    You clearly have zero understanding on the matter and no intention of trying to comprehend why a woman might not report an assault.
    Tunnel vision.
    The more you post the more your lack of respect for women shines through.


  • #2604
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Schorpio wrote: »
    Can I ask a simple question of the pro-lifers in this thread - who are you to judge?

    You all go on about what's morally (and spiritually) right and wrong, but at the end of the day, the big man upstairs has the final (and only) say. If that is indeed that case, then you can all carry on doing you, and you'll have your eternal bliss when the time comes.

    I don't remember Jesus ever judging, or looking down upon anybody. So, do you think he'd be proud of you all if he came back and read some of what you've been posting in this thread? I highly doubt it.

    Well leaving aside the irony of you judging Christians, while saying people shouldn't judge, what Christ was actually referring to was not judging people, but actions. Actions such as deliberately taking someone's life, can certainly be judged.

    Or, In other words, unlike what you've just posted, attacking the post instead of the posters.


  • #2605
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Please read this link before posting any more misinformation. https://www.rapecrisis.ie/statistics.html

    A 2015 study showed that 65% of sexual assaults that occur are NOT reported to Gardai.
    ... so are 65% of rapists free to continue their crimes, because they aren't reported to the Gardai?


  • #2606
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    ... so are 65% of rapists free to continue their crimes, because they aren't reported to the Gardai?

    More victim blaming from yourself. Not surprising in the least.


  • #2607
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    More victim blaming from yourself. Not surprising in the least.
    Where is the 'victim blaming'? ... you are saying that other people are aware that a rape has been committed ... and in 65% of cases it goes unreported ... the exact thing that the Roman Catholic Church stands accused of, back in the day.


  • #2608
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    Where is the 'victim blaming'? ... you are saying that other people are aware that a rape has been committed ... and in 65% of cases it goes unreported ... the exact thing that the Roman Catholic Church stands accused of, back in the day.

    What’s your point? Maybe if people like you didn’t have such a nasty dismissive attitude more women would feel confident coming forward!


  • #2609
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Maybe I've missed the answer but I've not seen a "pro choice" advocate tell me what kind of life the fetus of 2 human beings is. I've only been told it's not a human one!

    Maybe you have discovered a different life form !


  • #2610
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    What’s your point? Maybe if people like you didn’t have such a nasty dismissive attitude more women would feel confident coming forward!
    You're saying that 65% of rapes aren't reported ... and this figure is arrived at from formal reports to third parties ... who then do nothing about reporting these rapes ... potentially leaving 65% of rapists to continue raping ... the exact thing that the RCC stands accused of, back in the day.

    Is there one standard standard for the RCC... and another for other third parties aware of unreported rapes?


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  • #2611
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    You're saying that 65% of rapes aren't reported ... and this figure is arrived at from formal reports to third parties ... who then do nothing about reporting these rapes ... potentially leaving 65% of rapists to continue raping ... the exact thing that the RCC stands accused of back in the day.

    Is there one standard standard for the RCC... and another for other third parties aware of unreported rapes?

    You are making this about something it’s not.
    Women don’t come forward for a myriad of complex reasons.
    The statistics came from a rape crisis facility which offers support to victims.
    They cannot force those who don’t want to come forward to report it to Gardai against their will.

    This is in NO WAY similar to the acts committed by the Catholic Church in this country and to suggest so is disgusting.


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