Prime time - any predictions

conkennedy · 14-02-2018 1:09pm

Deedsie wrote: »

How did these countries go about changing the attitude of drivers towards cyclists?.

It's got to do with the Nazis blowing the **** out of places like the Netherlands during WWII. Roads were destroyed and people had no way to get around the towns other than by bike

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2018 1:37pm

conkennedy wrote: »

It's got to do with the Nazis blowing the **** out of places like the Netherlands during WWII. Roads were destroyed and people had no way to get around the towns other than by bike

Absolute nonsense

Thirty years ago, the Netherlands, a country about twice in size and population of New Jersey, was despondent over the high fatality rate on its roads. In the 1970s, 3200 Dutch citizens died each year in crashes, about 25 percent of them pedestrians. This rate was about 15 percent higher than that of the U.S.

https://www.pps.org/article/what-can-we-learn-about-road-safety-from-the-dutch

The early 1970's may be considered as a turning point in the history of road
safety in the Netherlands.
From the end of World War II to the early 1970's, the number of recorded traffic fatalities increased to a yearly maximum of approximately 3,300;mass-motorisation being its major cause. The intensely felt threat of traffic was no longer accepted by the public at large. A hot debate, the setting-up of pressure groups, etc., induced actively applied road safety policies tocurtail the problem. Measures taken over time with a large positive effect were, for instance: new traffic legislation (e.g. speed limits, drinking-and driving legislation), the expansion of the motorway network, traffic calming measures in built-up areas, the physical protection of car-occupants and moped drivers, education, information, and other means of influencing road user behaviour, and stimulating decentralisation.

https://www.swov.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/rapport/d-2002-04.pdf

magicbastarder · 14-02-2018 1:37pm

two things - as already mentioned in the thread, the dutch cycling revolution had nothing to do with WWII bombing.
secondly, both sides bombed the netherlands during WWII, not just the luftwaffe.

conkennedy · 14-02-2018 1:48pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Absolute nonsense

Fair enuff, was going on what I was told by a Belgian and Dutch friend a told me a few years ago

Now... Back to the primetime debate...

smacl · 14-02-2018 2:25pm

jon1981 wrote: »

It's probably a no win situation for the school.

1) They promote cycling and parents flip out because of how "lethal" it is to cycle and the school will be seen as negligent
2) They don't promote it and parents on the other side of the camp flip out because they want their kids to be encouraged to cycle.

Agreed. At the same time providing some basic facilities for those who do choose to cycle, rather than placing serious impediments in their way, isn't much of an ask. As I see it, the schools are already stressed and do what they can not to add to their workload. I'd be interested to know where the 800 figure came from as it seems dubious, being a nice round number on the one hand and knowing that a number of my daughters friends also cycle to school regularly.

There seems to be little enough appetite to improve things from either schools or government, though DCC counciler Dr Paddy Smyth is working away on a quietway scheme which does seem to be one of the more pragmatic ways to improve cycling safety for casual cyclists. For all the safety gear, I reckon one of the better ways to minimise risk comes down to route selection.

Cunning Alias · 14-02-2018 3:13pm

Don't cycle any more but did up until my 20s. Found the low school numbers really strange. Getting space in the bike shed growing up was the issue.

Gotta say, I was completely on board with all the cycling arguments until that Damien o Tuama guy completely dodged the final question about fines and identification. It's that exact type of holier than tho attitude that pisses off non cyclists.

07Lapierre · 14-02-2018 3:20pm

Cunning Alias wrote: »

It's that exact type of holier than tho attitude that pisses off non cyclists.

Have to agree..he seemed totally unprepared for that question. To me, the obvious reply was to commend the gardai for issuing them and criticise the "system" for not allowing the gardai to collect the fines on the spot, or confiscate the bike.

magicbastarder · 14-02-2018 3:36pm

smacl wrote: »

I'd be interested to know where the 800 figure came from as it seems dubious

he was challenged on it and said it came from census 2016 figures.

magicbastarder · 14-02-2018 3:40pm

interesting to note that on the CSO infographic about commuting, the bike doesn't warrant a mention as a mode of transport for getting to school:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/

anyway, from inside the chapter on school commuting which goes into much greater detail:

Cycling

The 25 years, from 1986 to 2011, saw an 87 per cent decrease in the numbers cycling to secondary school. 2016 saw the reversal of this trend with a 10.5 per cent increase since 2011, bringing the numbers of secondary students taking to their bikes to over 7,000. Over 90 per cent of these student cyclists were male, but the number of female cyclists has grown by over 30 per cent since 2011.

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6stp/

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2018 3:41pm

Cunning Alias wrote: »

until that Damien o Tuama guy completely dodged the final question about fines and identification. It's that exact type of holier than tho attitude that pisses off non cyclists.

As he stated, he didn't have the full details of any unpaid fines etc., and he repeatedly said he didn't condone law breaking by cyclists...

Cunning Alias · 14-02-2018 3:55pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

As he stated, he didn't have the full details of any unpaid fines etc., and he repeatedly said he didn't condone law breaking by cyclists...

Ah here. He was given the facts and asked should cyclists carry identification. "I would need to have a closer look at those figures" is dodging the question.

conkennedy · 14-02-2018 4:22pm

The elephant in the room, or lack thereof, was the absence of a certain Minister Ross TD....

conkennedy · 14-02-2018 4:24pm

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Ah here. He was given the facts and asked should cyclists carry identification. "I would need to have a closer look at those figures" is dodging the question.

The issue here would mean the mandatory introduction for identity cards for all road users, cyclists, pedestrians etc. Which would have civil rights implications.

Chips Lovell · 14-02-2018 4:37pm

No need for ID cards. The coppers already have the power to demand someone's name and address and seize their bike if they aren't satisfied they're telling the truth.

Like most road traffic law, it's rarely enforced.

Grassey · 14-02-2018 4:42pm

conkennedy wrote: »

The issue here would mean the mandatory introduction for identity cards for all road users, cyclists, pedestrians etc. Which would have civil rights implications.

Drivers are currently required to carry their licence with them at all times when driving.

I'm sure a the majority of commuters will have a wallet/purse on them with some form of ID there, so it's a non-issue if stopped by AGS

If they are conflating identification with licence plates and an image of my smug face plastered across the back of a mandatory high vis well....

conkennedy · 14-02-2018 5:31pm

Grassey wrote: »

I'm sure a the majority of commuters will have a wallet/purse on them with some form of ID there, so it's a non-issue if stopped by AGS

Precisely - and I'm sure those who are members of Cycling Ireland also carry their licence with them for the same resons

Wishbone Ash · 14-02-2018 6:12pm

Grassey wrote: »

...I'm sure a the majority of commuters will have a wallet/purse on them with some form of ID there, so it's a non-issue if stopped by AGS..

That's irrelevant though as there is no requirement to carry any form of ID while cycling.

(On one occasion when stopped by a Garda while cycling, he asked me to identify myself. I gave him my name/address but said I had no obligation to carry ID. He didn't seemed to get the point and kept insisting I had to have some sort of ID on me. He then asked me if I had a driver's licence. When I replied that I had but wasn't required to have it while cycling he got a bit annoyed.)

Mec-a-nic · 14-02-2018 6:27pm

conkennedy wrote: »

96.% of those expletives are mine.... And 8 of the clips they showed

Ten of the clips were mine, but alas no swearing - due to the waterproof case on the camera muting the sound. :P

Edit: here they are in case anyone wants to illustrate what we have to put up with

https://streamable.com/jghp9
https://streamable.com/dqpxe
https://streamable.com/23t5h
https://streamable.com/5ta6i
https://streamable.com/6zufz
https://streamable.com/q2u8b
https://streamable.com/rjti6
https://streamable.com/j3sxv
https://streamable.com/pvsbm (the closest I've come to dying) That Verona Murphy is a wagon.

schemingbohemia · 14-02-2018 6:45pm

That last one is so scary!

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2018 7:02pm

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Ah here. He was given the facts and asked should cyclists carry identification. "I would need to have a closer look at those figures" is dodging the question.

Damien is not responsible for defending anyone who breaks the rules, nor would he, he was there to put the cyclists point of view across..

That's what's part of the whole problem with the PT segment.. It showed Motorists who skim past cyclists at high speed somehow aren't as bad as the odd person on a bicycle who cycles on the path..and they expected those from the cyclist side to answer for all "cyclist sins"..

Wishbone Ash · 14-02-2018 7:10pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Damien is not responsible for defending anyone who breaks the rules, nor would he, he was there to put the cyclists point of view across....

But he didn't put the cyclists view across. He was awful and did cyclists no favours among the undecided. Any other organisation would have had a polished PR type person up front. Can you imagine the AA sending someone like that into the Primetime studio?

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2018 7:19pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

But he didn't put the cyclists view across. He was awful and did cyclists no favours among the undecided. Any other organisation would have had a polished PR type person up front. Can you imagine the AA sending someone like that into the Primetime studio?

Is that what cycling groups want, a more "militant" representative?

Besides, RTE could have chosen better guests to represent the otherside of the debate apart from that rabble rousing loudmouth Mannix Flynn and the psychopathic eyes of Verona Murphy?

seanin4711 · 14-02-2018 7:51pm

what did she mean by a man in the phoenix park? verona murphy
sure who needs data?

Kaisr Sose · 14-02-2018 8:15pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Most of the stress that comes with driving is the traffic delays and urge to get somewhere quicker. Bus drivers are literally paid to sit and drive the bus, if they're delayed, so be it, they may cut or miss a journey later. So I think the largest contributor to stress is removed.

I would agree with this. Seeing a DB driver taking risks or getting stressed makes me wonder what sort of driver they are in their own vehicle....

Wishbone Ash · 14-02-2018 8:22pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Is that what cycling groups want, a more "militant" representative?..]

'Polished' v. militant = chalk/cheese.

Kaisr Sose · 14-02-2018 8:25pm

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Ten of the clips were mine, but alas no swearing - due to the waterproof case on the camera muting the sound..

That first one is from the Central Remedial Clinic...FFS, that’s where some victims of road traffic accidents end up. They would be/should be appalled to have their vehicle shown driving like that.

Tenzor07 · 14-02-2018 9:27pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

'Polished' v. militant = chalk/cheese.

Cyclist groups should do a whip around and see if Conor Faughnan wants to switch sides..

rodneyTrotter. · 14-02-2018 10:18pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Is that what cycling groups want, a more "militant" representative?

Besides, RTE could have chosen better guests to represent the otherside of the debate apart from that rabble rousing loudmouth Mannix Flynn and the psychopathic eyes of Verona Murphy?

Remember Nostradamus prediction ?
For years people have wondered who the 3rd antichrist will be . We found out last night.

Annie get your Run · 14-02-2018 11:15pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

But he didn't put the cyclists view across. He was awful and did cyclists no favours among the undecided. Any other organisation would have had a polished PR type person up front. Can you imagine the AA sending someone like that into the Primetime studio?

I didn't watch it, nor do I plan to but can we compare Damien with Conor Faulknan (for e.g). Isn't Dublin cycling campaign a voluntary organization where as Faulknan is paid big bucks and he's been doing it for years. Is there anyone else you can think of that could have / should have gone in his place?

It sounds to me like PT were not that interested in properly representing people on bikes as they had 2 against 1, perhaps if there had been a second cycling representative things might have been more balanced.

Wishbone Ash · 14-02-2018 11:32pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

...It sounds to me like PT were not that interested in properly representing people on bikes as they had 2 against 1, perhaps if there had been a second cycling representative things might have been more balanced.

They had a second cycling representative - a journalist (who's name I can't recall now) and who was much more articulate and representative than Damien.

Prime time - any predictions

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