Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

blanch152 · 14-02-2018 6:19pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Another one of those misleading statistics which I for one am tiring of.

No-one disputes that most well paying jobs are in Dublin.
No-one should dispute either that most young people are forced to live and work and pay their taxes in Dublin, despite the fact a large percentage come from a rural/non Dublin background.
Dublin is like a black hole sucking people in from outside of Dublin. They have no choice but to become part of the chaos. The choice of jobs outside Dublin is poor to say the least. Encouraging more people into Dublin is not the answer. Most people apart from a few hold outs know this.
Brave policies need to be implemented by our politicians in taking the focus away from Dublin including putting on hold major new jobs announcements for Dublin. Its never ideal turning away new jobs. But for the sanity of Dubliners and to ease the accommodation crisis it needs to be done.
There are only so many sardines you can squeeze into the tin.

What a terrible idea.

How are you going to persuade anyone to live in Carrick-on-Shannon instead of Dublin, for example?

The NDP is expected to provide for Dublin growing by a little with the focus on high-density, high-rise, but improving the quality of life through better public transport.

However, the main focus is to be on growing Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford (and apparently Sligo and Athlone have been added on to this as a stupid afterthought). Growing those four cities as a counterweight to Dublin is the only feasible solution to promoting development outside Dublin.

blanch152 · 14-02-2018 6:22pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think the University thing is a big factor in the success of an urban area. Galway relies heavily on the university for employment but also from the economic gains of thousands of students staying there.
There probably is a case for a university in Waterford and to grow it in the long run. Certainly the focus needs to be taken off Dublin.

Could you produce some hard evidence to back up your statements about the benefit of the university to Galway (other than Donegal Tuesday)?

Tell me how · 14-02-2018 6:25pm

blanch152 wrote: »

How are you going to persuade anyone to live in Carrick-on-Shannon instead of Dublin, for example?

The people who have had to move from Carrick-on-Shannon and the surrounding area to Dublin to get work might be interested...

One hour travelling from Carrick-on Shannon will get you to Sligo, Athlone, Claremorris, Enniskillen, Cavan.

Where do you need to live to be within one hour of work in Dublin?

AlmightyCushion · 14-02-2018 6:32pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

including putting on hold major new jobs announcements for Dublin.

People have suggested this a lot but how do you put on hold job creation in Dublin? Serious question. I'm talking about actively putting it on hold in Dublin as opposed to just incentivising job creation elsewhere in the country. Would we be bringing in new legislation to ban new companies setting up and existing companies from hiring new people in dublin?

It's a ludicrous idea. It'll never happen for a start but if it did it would be a disaster. It would also stop companies setting up or expanding outside of Dublin as they would be worried about the same thing happening in other locations as well. Not to mention companies who set up here and then open up in other areas of the country. What about retail/hotels/etc? No new retail stores would be allowed to open in Dublin under your plan. Companies choosing to locate in other countries over Ireland over this (which would happen) would harm growth, tax take, employment and countless other things that would negatively affect the whole country.

defrule · 14-02-2018 6:37pm

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?
40868726.9236e516.560.jpg?r2

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

Tell me how · 14-02-2018 6:39pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Could you produce some hard evidence to back up your statements about the benefit of the university to Galway (other than Donegal Tuesday)?

Are you suggesting it is no benefit?

Do you need a research paper to agree that 18,000 students living in the region boosts that economy?

Here are success stories from the Technology Transfer Office at NUIG which have benefited some businesses in the region thus ultimately improving employment opportunities and showcasing the university well which appeals to med-tech companies one or two which are located in Galway.

http://www.tto.nuigalway.ie/en/success-stories

14-02-2018 6:49pm

onedmc wrote: »

Thats where your wrong, they don't pay their taxes just like everyone else. Dublin accounts for over 80% of the tax take in Ireland.

The average individual tax payer living in a rural area pays the same or possibly more tax than the average urban dweller so yes people living in rural areas pay their taxes and deserve to benefit from these taxes.

blanch152 wrote: »

Could you produce some hard evidence to back up your statements about the benefit of the university to Galway (other than Donegal Tuesday)?

You can't be serious? If you can't see how approx 28k students (about 1/4 of the cities population) between GMIT and NUIG along with well over 3k people employed by both institues benefits the economy of Galway massively alone before even discussing how both institues feed the businesses and MNCs in the area then I really don't think its worth discussing with you.

roadmaster · 14-02-2018 7:07pm

So when is the pale being rebuilt?

Spanish Eyes · 14-02-2018 7:12pm

defrule wrote: »

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

People don't like them, think they are dangerous places, and with Garda presence being minimal in Dublin I don't blame them at all.

They will also solve the street sleeper crisis in an instant.

Not going to happen.

Zebra3 · 14-02-2018 7:16pm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I for one am sick and tired of the whinging about the Dublin property crisis. Its a crisis entirely manufactured by the Dublin centric brigade. You'd wonder how many of them are landlords behind it all.

Manufactured by the money centric brigade. Nobody who cares about a city/region would manufacture a housing crisis within it.

Brian CivilEng · 14-02-2018 7:26pm

defrule wrote: »

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

You will see subways like that in cities that had a lot of car centric development in the 1960s and 1970s. All current design advice is against segregation like that. For anti-social reasons, and for treating pedestrians like second class citizens. When I worked in the UK we were bricking pedestrian subways up.

By the way I pass a bricked up subway in Coolock on my daily commute.

I don't mean this to come across as being hard on you, apologies if it does I am not good with words sometimes, but your post is indicative of an attitude I encounter a lot. Dublin is described as being a "small city" or "low density" or unimportant because it doesn't have something that London or New York has. We shouldn't compare Dublin to a mega city like the aforementioned, there are only about 10 of them in the planet and they operate in a different orbit. But Dublin stands up well as a mid sized city, and should be compared to the likes of Manchester, Munich, Oslo, Stockholm etc. We are behind those cities in some ways and ahead of them in others, due to when in time development booms occurred and what was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

14-02-2018 8:03pm

cgcsb wrote: »

What year are you posting from? Milton is all roundabouts and car centric development.

Would you believe that the original plans had provision for light rail & trolleybuses, they just didn't bother including them when they actually started constructing it.

It would not be too difficult to retrospectively install some of the routes, but most are lost.

Dyr · 14-02-2018 8:09pm

They put in under passes in parts of Dublin in the 60's/70s, they were not a success

Sam Russell · 14-02-2018 8:36pm

snotboogie wrote: »

ACCOUNTING & FINANCE SALARIES IN COMMERCE & INDUSTRY (LARGE COMPANIES 500+ EMPLOYEES)
Financial Controller Dublin- 85k - 90k Cork 75k - 85k Limerick 70k - 80k Galway 70k - 80k

There are not that many companies outside Dublin with 500+ employees and vacancies for Financial Controllers. Smaller companies pay smaller salaries, and outside Dublin - much smaller.

PopePalpatine · 14-02-2018 8:37pm

Pedestrian underpasses remind me of that Peep Show episode where Mark gets robbed.

jobbridge4life · 14-02-2018 8:48pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

I wont link as it would not be overly difficult to get identifiable info.

Grand yeah...

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

I was including the NBP in saying this. In my area anyway what's happening is eir is laying fibre along all main roads and going in maybe 300m in by roads and stopping there and not finishing in to the ends of these roads or serving the houses further in. They are then expecting the NBP to complete the work instead of just finishing the job themselves while at the same time covering enough area with their fibre roll out to make it far too messy and uneconomical for another operator to start laying fibre.

In our case the fibre will stop about 500m from my home house (which is next to where I plan to build my own house also), in fact there are more houses not being connected on the road than are being connected which makes no sense from an economic point of view.

You couldn't have been, and most especially, not if the statement you made in the post I quoted previously was true. The entire premise of the NBP was that there was a demonstrable market failure to provide essential services to large swathes of the population/areas of the country. government, and EU funding, that is proposed to pay for the NBP is dependent on the proceeding to be true.
The 300,000 may have suddenly become 'commercial' but that should not be considered in the absence of the proposed plan.

jmayo · 14-02-2018 9:23pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

The Dutch should of been underwater 100 years ago...human ingenuity eh!

how much have sea levels risen in the last 100 years and how much will thy rise over the next 100 years?

bk wrote: »

I'm all of that, family and kid in a lovely apartment in Dublin.
...
A 2 bed apartment is perfectly fine if you have one child. Even fine with two kids if they aren't teenagers.

All over Europe kids being brought up in apartments, it is perfectly fine, we just aren't use to it. Or we even look done on it thinking of it like council flats.
..

Have you compared some of those apartments in Europe and what spaces are available nearby for kids with what has historically been on offer in Ireland ?
Wait till your kid gets bigger or you have another one and I would bet tonight's lottery you will be on the move out of that apartment of yours.

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin City Centre we can provide more trams, buses and trains as demand grows. We cannot do that in rural areas or small towns where there is insufficient density of employment and population to support such services.

You added a new tram service the other week and it came to a grinding halt the other day.
How long did it take to build the two unconnected tram lines in the first place ?

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin's infrastructure is limited because we've blown the infrastructure budget on MEGA motorways to Tuam and New Ross. ,maintenance of an impossibly large road L road network and lets not forget an impossible to implement broadband scheme. Altogether billions wasted on that rubbish.

One would swear listening to your shyte that Dublin actually carry out planning and infrastructure projects ala Hong kong.

Remember the M50, how half way through it's construction it was realised it would not be fit for purpose, but rather than do it right, it was completed only to be turned into a road work again.

How much was the cost overrun on Luas or are you going to blame that on someone in Tuam or New Ross ?

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Stanley still exists but lost 30 jobs last year, the place has about 25 employees. had 600 in the mid 60s, the Glass had 3000 up until 1990. Which illustrates the way forward. The future of Waterford has to be on 21st century technology not harking back to fashioning lumps of metal into something you fire a light in to. Hence the need for a tech biased University.

Yep that is why the likes of Germany, Italy and some more European countries held onto their small native manufacturing.
They didn't go down the route of the UK which now is going to be begging foreign owned manufacturing not to leave due to Brexit.

The way forward is a mixed economy not one based totally on FDI and foreign tech companies that can up sticks overnight because the tax rate changes somewhere else.

The comment above sounds eerily like the shyte that was pervasive a while back about a knowledge economy, when really it all boiled down to us attracting foreign owned tech companies to site bases here and they would avail of our cheap if sometimes non existent corpo tax.

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Staring into screens and writing the code that runs the applications on your pc, tablet and smartphone. Creating a great deal of value.

But how many people are actually employed writing code and how many are actually just in support and backup?

BrianBoru00 · 14-02-2018 9:28pm

abitofacomedian wrote: »

You will see subways like that in cities that had a lot of car centric development in the 1960s and 1970s. All current design advice is against segregation like that. For anti-social reasons, and for treating pedestrians like second class citizens. When I worked in the UK we were bricking pedestrian subways up.

By the way I pass a bricked up subway in Coolock on my daily commute.

I don't mean this to come across as being hard on you, apologies if it does I am not good with words sometimes, but your post is indicative of an attitude I encounter a lot. Dublin is described as being a "small city" or "low density" or unimportant because it doesn't have something that London or New York has. We shouldn't compare Dublin to a mega city like the aforementioned, there are only about 10 of them in the planet and they operate in a different orbit. But Dublin stands up well as a mid sized city, and should be compared to the likes of Manchester, Munich, Oslo, Stockholm etc. We are behind those cities in some ways and ahead of them in others, due to when in time development booms occurred and what was the prevailing wisdom at the time.

...directly as a result of this thread I educated myself on this! - its fascinating really. Basically there are top of the pile Alpha cities followed then Beta cities and Gamma Cities. Then there are sufficiency cities.
Within Alpha cities there are further distinctions. Alpha++ two world wide - NYC and London - the two most in tune with the world economy. Then there are seven Alpha + cities - Singapore, Hong Kong, Paris, Beijing, Tokyo, Dubai, Shanghai.

Alpha Cities of which there are 19 including Amsterdam,Madrid,Chicago & Frankfurt.

And then there are Alpha - cities where Dublin lies in cities like Washington, San Fran, Barcalona & Bangkok

They're regarded in the top tier as regards world wide economy focused on accountancy, advertising, banking/finance, and law.

For information purposes - some cities in the second main tier - Beta include Caracas, Prague, Capetown, Cairo.

As far as I can see no other Irish city makes even the Sufficiency list. For comparison - Liverpool is regarded as high Sufficiency.

markodaly · 14-02-2018 9:28pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

For me you can't put a high enough value on space, for me space is comfort. I hate living in small houses where everything is on top of everything else and you struggle to even put an new item on the worktop or put out a clothes horse without it being in the way. Having grown up in the country and being used to space I've found the time I've spent living in estates getting old very fast and this is without kids.

I currently live in a 3 bed semi with just my oh, its average size for most estates and I personally find it extremely cramped, considering lots in the estate have 2 or 3 kids as well in the same house I just don't know how they tolerate it. I hate clutter and you can't but be cluttered in a house where you have no designated place for a clothes horse or where a normal sized kitchen table take so up a large percentage of the room, or where the counter top just isnt big enough or the bedrooms and wardrobes are too small, ensuite is too small, no storage etc. Then what about a second sitting room, home office, proper utility room for laundry equipment, chest freezer etc, games room, (pool, darts, bar etc) server room for all electronics, multiple ensuite bedrooms, walk in hot press etc these are the things I want in a house We currently have a master bedroom, second double room which is used as a walk in wardrobe by my oh and a box room which is used for storage and is full of stuff, can barely get in the door. I have no idea how you could live in a house this size with even a baby never mind older kids and that's also taking into account that I still have my bedroom at the home house which I keep stuff in and store lots of other stuff at home too.

To put it in perspective I've stated the early stages of a plan for building my own place and the master bedroom, ensuite and walk in wardrobe (more of a room in its own right really) will be a similar size to the entire upstairs of the house I'm currently in (which has 3 bedrooms, a bathroom and a hot press upstairs). The kitchen would be a similar size to the entire downstairs of the house I currently live in. So just two room would be give or take as big as a 3 bed semi, this is the type of space I'm after along with all the types of rooms I described above and more possibly.

That's before going outside and having a multiple car garage, gardens where if/when kids come along they can play unsupervised rather than having to stay with them in a park etc. Only neighbours close by would be my parents and relations so great relationship with them (and also a major reason for living there to be close to family), no worries about sound, can blast music as loud as possible and it won't be heard or watch a move late at night on surround sound and not worry about next door etc.

There is a school 5 mins drive away, a town 10 mins drive away and a city 25 mins drive away where I can get any of the amenities you have while still have the what I see as essentials such as space, the house I want, privacy, surrounded by family, country side with nice views etc.

What you want is a McMansion built in the middle of no where, where your electricity connection and Broadband connection is subsidised by the tax payer.
You do realise if everyone in Ireland wanted (sorry demanded) the same thing as you, we would be left with no money for things like health and education.

wakka12 · 14-02-2018 9:30pm

defrule wrote: »

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

Nice idea- but they'd just be full of homeless people, and I doubt people would like going through them at night (not because of homeless people but just in general i mean)
And I don't think theres any roads that are that large or busy in dublin that would justify these..leeson street and cuffe street and a few other places can be a bit annoying to cross but its grand like..waiting a min or two at the lights its not the end of the world

markodaly · 14-02-2018 9:34pm

Tell me how wrote: »

My objection to the way society in Ireland has developed is the portrayal that the Dublin model is the pinnacle and everything else should support this.

.

I am sorry but who is saying that Dublin is the pinnacle? Stop making false arguments with no one, you will be take more seriously in the points you make.

MayoSalmon · 14-02-2018 9:58pm

Kye High Lacrosse wrote:

The average individual tax payer living in a rural area pays the same or possibly more tax than the average urban dweller so yes people living in rural areas pay their taxes and deserve to benefit from these taxes.

This average rural dweller earns less than the average urban dweller so immediately no they don't.

The cost of living is also more expensive in cities there urban dwellers are paying more VAT.

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2018 10:07pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

The average individual tax payer living in a rural area pays the same or possibly more tax than the average urban dweller so yes people living in rural areas pay their taxes and deserve to benefit from these taxes.

Eh yeah I'm going to need to see a link for this outrageous claim.

14-02-2018 10:26pm

markodaly wrote: »

McMansion .

The use of this term means any opinions surrounding it can be immediately dismissed. The word should be wiped from existence and shows nothing but begrudgery.

MayoSalmon wrote: »

This average rural dweller earns less than the average urban dweller so immediately no they don't.

The cost of living is also more expensive in cities there urban dwellers are paying more VAT.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Eh yeah I'm going to need to see a link for this outrageous claim.

A large proportion of rural dwellers commute to urban areas to work so their salaries are comparable in general.

Rural homes tend to have more cars, newer and often more expensive cars. Vrt and vat on cars is a big expense. They spend more on fuel as they drive more which is a big cash cow for tax, they pay for water which had vat (urban dwellers refused to oay), they higher electricity thus more vat.

I'm not saying the cost of living is higher overall as it's obviously not, the cost of housing is far far higher and yes that means a higher stamp duty but this is a once off.

Tell me how · 14-02-2018 10:29pm

markodaly wrote:

I am sorry but who is saying that Dublin is the pinnacle? Stop making false arguments with no one, you will be take more seriously in the points you make.

Yawn. Again.

LeinsterDub · 14-02-2018 10:38pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

A large proportion of rural dwellers commute to urban areas to work so their salaries are comparable in general.

Rural homes tend to have more cars, newer and often more expensive cars. Vrt and vat on cars is a big expense. They spend more on fuel as they drive more which is a big cash cow for tax, they pay for water which had vat (urban dwellers refused to oay), they higher electricity thus more vat.

I'm not saying the cost of living is higher overall as it's obviously not, the cost of housing is far far higher and yes that means a higher stamp duty but this is a once off.

So you've no evidence then. Just random stuff about cars and fuel

ncounties · 14-02-2018 11:30pm

defrule wrote: »

I think mentality is something that needs to really change on top of the all the tangible developments that should happen.

As an example, where in Dublin do we have underground tunnels to cross roads?

I never noticed we were missing these until I saw them in other cities. Instead of putting traffic lights everywhere, tunnels like these mean cars and pedestrians don't come into conflict.

This mindset of really thinking about how to gain maximum utility from land including the vertical aspects is something we really need.

Awful idea from the decades where vast swathes of victorian, edwardian, and georgian architecture were demolished to make way for urban motorways. You may have noticed them, but did you use them? They are great if you like the smell of pi$$.

Most cities that stupidly entertained them have been doing their utmost to undo their mistakes, in particular, Birmingham.

14-02-2018 11:36pm

ncounties wrote: »

Awful idea from the decades where vast swathes of victorian, edwardian, and georgian architecture were demolished to make way for urban motorways. You may have noticed them, but did you use them? They are great if you like the smell of pi$$.

Most cities that stupidly entertained them have been doing their utmost to undo their mistakes, in particular, Birmingham.

They work well in open cities like Milton Keynes, it's the small narrow tunnels that were built in many cities that were a disaster due to the anti social elements that could hide there.

Tell me how · 14-02-2018 11:40pm

ncounties wrote:

Awful idea from the decades where vast swathes of victorian, edwardian, and georgian architecture were demolished to make way for urban motorways. You may have noticed them, but did you use them? They are great if you like the smell of pi$$.

Ugly ugly things. The one in Coventry is 1km in diameter. Talk about making a massive effort for small gain.

markodaly · 14-02-2018 11:55pm

Luka Lemon Town wrote: »

The use of this term means any opinions surrounding it can be immediately dismissed. The word should be wiped from existence and shows nothing but begrudgery.

Not at all. That word has entered the lexicon as other countries in the West want to adopt American type housing with gyms, games rooms, a movie theatre. In fact in Australia in some councils they have tried to ban these McMansions.

If you are vain enough to want to be part of an episode of MTV Cribs then good luck to you. It does not mean that we, the tax payer should go on and subside your property for you and provide you with all the mod cons and services that are expensive to provide, such as fibre broadband to your house.

Perhaps if you paid property tax on the Sq foot you had, perhaps you would change your tune? :rolleyes:

Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

Comments