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Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

12357…31

Comments

  • #122
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    And if students want him to come?

    Students disagree, this is hardly news.

    It is also more than possible that some students would like him to come entirely to get up the noses of the students who object.


  • #123
    joe40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭joe40


    When was this glorious era where free speech was an absolute right and all views were publicly expressed. There may be protests sometimes but I think there has never been a time in history when so many diverse views are heard. I'm no expert though so open to correction


  • #124
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    joe40 wrote: »
    When was this glorious era where free speech was an absolute right and all views were publicly expressed. There may be protests sometimes but I think there has never been a time in history when so many diverse views are heard. I'm no expert though so open to correction

    Irrelevant. Sensitive students shouldn't be allowed censor speakers who have been invited. It doesn't matter how long it's been happening.


  • #125
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    Irrelevant. Sensitive students shouldn't be allowed censor speakers who have been invited. It doesn't matter how long it's been happening.

    But they’re not censoring anyone. They are expressing opposition to the speakers.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #126
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Brian? wrote: »
    But they’re not censoring anyone. They are expressing opposition to the speakers.

    Are you talking about a specific case?


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  • #127
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    Are you talking about a specific case?

    No. Students objecting to a speaker is not censorship.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #128
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Brian? wrote: »
    No. Students objecting to a speaker is not censorship.

    Just like feminists objecting to the portrayal of female characters in video games isn’t censorship.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #129
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Brian? wrote: »
    No. Students objecting to a speaker is not censorship.

    Objecting is fine. Trying to shut down a speaker, whether explicitly -Shouting down a speaker and interrupting a talk - or implicitly - requiring speakers to sign forms prior to speaking - is censorship, and should be condemned.


  • #130
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Here's an example
    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/outspoken-mail-sunday-journalist-gives-13812701


  • #131
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    Objecting is fine. Trying to shut down a speaker, whether explicitly -Shouting down a speaker and interrupting a talk - or implicitly - requiring speakers to sign forms prior to speaking - is censorship, and should be condemned.

    That's not censorship, it's protesting which is supposed to be disruptive.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #132
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    That's not censorship, it's protesting which is supposed to be disruptive.

    Same thing. There's no difference.


  • #133
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    Same thing. There's no difference.

    Yes there is. Protesting is expressing an opinion which is a core tenet of a free society.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #134
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Yes there is. Protesting is expressing an opinion which is a core tenet of a free society.

    So if I invite a speaker to my university, and a crowd turn up and start barking and roaring, that's an acceptable form of protest?


  • #135
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    So if I invite a speaker to my university, and a crowd turn up and start barking and roaring, that's an acceptable form of protest?

    Of course it is. If you issue an invitation you should have campus security on hand to remove disruptive presences.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #136
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Yes there is. Protesting is expressing an opinion which is a core tenet of a free society.

    Within the law.


  • #137
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Within the law.

    Thought that was implied. Making noise is fine. Smacking someone you disagree with is assault.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #138
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Of course it is. If you issue an invitation you should have campus security on hand to remove disruptive presences.

    It's not an acceptable form of protest. It's not even protesting. It's just trying to silence an alternative opinion. Once a person is given permission to speak he should be allowed speak without a mob interrupting him.


  • #139
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Thought that was implied. Making noise is fine. Smacking someone you disagree with is assault.

    Not necessarily. For example, protesters invading an invite only talk at a university could be trespassing.


  • #140
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    It's not an acceptable form of protest. It's not even protesting. It's just trying to silence an alternative opinion. Once a person is given permission to speak he should be allowed speak without a mob interrupting them.

    Of course it's acceptable. If it weren't surely all these students would be sanctioned and/or arrested. You've just repeated your point without adding anything.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #141
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Of course it's acceptable. If it weren't surely all these students would be sanctioned and/or arrested. You've just repeated your point without adding anything.

    They are not sanctioned because the University authorities don't want to get involved. But they should be. Just because they aren't doesn't mean it's a legitimate form of protest.


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  • #142
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    They are not sanctioned because the University authorities don't want to get involved. But they should be. Just because they aren't doesn't mean it's a legitimate form of protest.

    A consequence of for-profit third level education. If Universities are going to be run as businesses then displeasing consumers paying many thousands or tens of thousands per year each is a pretty bad idea. If the protest was illegitimate then it's a matter for the police but simply claiming that these protests are illegitimate doesn't make them so.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #143
    VonZan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭VonZan


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    So if I invite a speaker to my university, and a crowd turn up and start barking and roaring, that's an acceptable form of protest?

    Why would you be against people protesting? The problem is that these college students aren’t intelligent enough to tell the difference between Ben Shapiro and Richard Spencer. Any non-postmodernist is treated as a Nazi. The problem isn’t the people protesting with placards it’s the people shouting and interrupting speeches becuase they simply can’t process a different viewpoint to their own. It’s quite hypocritical and dangerously stupid that these people are the same people speaking about intolerance in society too.

    Protesting is a basic democratic right but I don’t believe in the right to silence others simply becuase you disagree with them.


  • #144
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    VonZan wrote: »
    Why would you be against people protesting? The problem is that these college students aren’t intelligent enough to tell the difference between Ben Shapiro and Richard Spencer. Any non-postmodernist is treated as a Nazi. The problem isn’t the people protesting with placards it’s the people shouting and interrupting speeches becuase they simply can’t process a different viewpoint to their own. It’s quite hypocritical and dangerously stupid that these people are the same people speaking about intolerance in society too.

    Protesting is a basic democratic right but I don’t believe in the right to silence others simply becuase you disagree with them.

    Are you disagreeing with me on something? What you just wrote perfectly sums up my position.


  • #145
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    So if I invite a speaker to my university, and a crowd turn up and start barking and roaring, that's an acceptable form of protest?

    Do what Trump does: don't hold any public event unless its ordained as a Campaign Rally. That way, you can decide who to let in. The University could have it as a ticketed event, but good luck with that going over well with the fee-paying student body.
    VonZan wrote:
    Protesting is a basic democratic right but I don’t believe in the right to silence others simply becuase you disagree with them.
    They aren't being silenced, the simply share the same airspace and earspace as other people. They can try and talk louder if they wish. Where free speech ends is threats of violence.


  • #146
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    So sick of these right wing blowhards, making a career out of being "controversial" whinging about being "silenced" and censored. If some students with placards scare you maybe the marketplace of ideas isn't for you.


  • #147
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Overheal wrote: »
    Do what Trump does: don't hold any public event unless its billeted as a Campaign Rally. That way, you can decide who to let in. The University could have it as a ticketed event, but good luck with that going over well with the fee-paying student body.They aren't being silenced, the simply share the same airspace and earspace as other people. They can try and talk louder if they wish. Where free speech ends is threats of violence.

    For Christ sake, if a person is so weak minded and sensitive that they can't bear the idea that someone with differing views should be allowed to speak then they don't have to turn up. It's very simple. If they don't approve of a person speaking they don't have to attend the event.

    What is this rubbish about space? A university is a big place. Just do something else while the talk is on. It's very simple


  • #148
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    20Cent wrote: »
    So sick of these right wing blowhards, making a career out of being "controversial" whinging about being "silenced" and censored. If some students with placards scare you maybe the marketplace of ideas isn't for you.

    "Right Wing Blowhards"

    You mean you disagree with us. If students interrupt a talk by shouting down the speaker there is no marketplace of ideas - it's a marketplace of one idea, and all others are silenced.


  • #149
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    For Christ sake, if a person is so weak minded and sensitive that they can't bear the idea that someone with differing views should be allowed to speak then they don't have to turn up. It's very simple. If they don't approve of a person speaking they don't have to attend the event.

    What is this rubbish about space? A university is a big place. Just do something else while the talk is on. It's very simple

    'For Christ sake, if a speaker is so weak minded and sensitive that they can't bear the idea that someone with different views should be allowed to express objection then they don't have to show up' either.

    :pac:


  • #150
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DickSwiveller wrote: »
    "Right Wing Blowhards"

    You mean you disagree with us. If students interrupt a talk by shouting down the speaker there is no marketplace of ideas - it's a marketplace of one idea, and all others are silenced.

    That's hardly silence, if it's being shouted down.


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  • #151
    DickSwiveller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭DickSwiveller


    Overheal wrote: »
    That's hardly silence, if it's being shouted down.

    Ye, you're right, it's easy to give a talk when some moron is screaming.


This discussion has been closed.
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