Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Bob_Marley · 13-02-2018 09:53AM

Delirium wrote: »

Two contrasting examples have been cited regarding what happens if the child survives the abortion (>= 22 weeks). UK leaves the child, while US endeavours to keep the child alive.

It's been stated more than once that Ireland will align itself with the UK model regarding the scenario I've mentioned. Can anyone show why that would be the case rather than the US model?

Because the pro-abortion lobby in Ireland would have an apoplectic fit if the child lived.

recedite · 13-02-2018 09:54AM

Delirium wrote: »

Two contrasting examples have been cited regarding what happens if the child survives the abortion (>= 22 weeks). UK leaves the child, while US endeavours to keep the child alive.

It's been stated more than once that Ireland will align itself with the UK model regarding the scenario I've mentioned. Can anyone show why that would be the case rather than the US model?

You're entirely in the realm of speculation there. Once the protection of the 8th amendment was removed, it could go either way.
It might even vary, being left to the "ethos" of the individual hospital.

As the debate has generally centred around comparisons with UK clinics (Minister Harris saying we already effectively have UK style abortion because of all those who travel to the UK) then the implication of what he is saying is that we are competing against that particular regime, and must aspire to match it.

Delirium · 13-02-2018 09:56AM

recedite wrote: »

You're entirely in the realm of speculation there. Once the protection of the 8th amendment was removed, it could go either way.
It might even vary, being left to the "ethos" of the individual hospital.

As the debate has generally centred around comparisons with UK clinics (Minister Harris saying we already effectively have UK style abortion because of all those who travel to the UK) then the implication of what he is saying is that we are competing against that particular regime, and must aspire to match it.

Yeah, I get the general idea of what Nick was saying and can see where he's coming from. But why is it treated as an almost certainty that Ireland would emulate the UK should the child survive the abortion?

recedite · 13-02-2018 10:11AM

The accepted wisdom is that Irish women travel to England for abortions, not to the US.
The political climate now, is to try to stop this. Not by preventing the travel but by removing the incentive to travel. Logically that would require having a broadly similar regime on both sides of the Irish Sea. A kind of abortion single market.

Zerbini Blewitt · 13-02-2018 12:24PM

From reasons given for termination in the Oireachtas committee report 2.31, 2.35, page 10/11, it is being speculated that the government will allow a termination without gestational limit where the foetus is guaranteed to die (FFA cases) however they are not expected atm to allow termination where the foetus doesn’t have a fatal condition.

So this >=22 week botched termination scenario being presented will only be a possibility here in the case where the foetus WILL die when it is born or shortly thereafter.

Can people suggesting this line of argument, clarify if this is what they meant and that this is a reason to retain the 8th.

....... · 13-02-2018 12:27PM

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....... · 13-02-2018 12:29PM

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SusieBlue · 13-02-2018 12:33PM

J C wrote: »

You made the following statement ... and I responded to it:-

You were the one who raised the issue of child euthenasia ... and I linked to a New Scientist article on the subject .. hardly scaremongering, by any stretch of the imagination.

If Belgium already has it ... can 'Post-Holy Catholic Ireland' be far behind? ... especially, if a signal that 'anything goes' is given, by the repeal of the 8th.

Childhood euthenasia is all part of a continuum in the culture of death starting with the abortion of the unborn ... and ending with the euthanasia of the born.

Once again this has absolutely zero relevance to our referendum. We are not having a referendum to decide whether to euthanise newborns or not.
We are having one to allow unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Unless you can produce a link to show that there is either a group or a person in Ireland lobbying and campaigning to legalise the euthanisation of newborn infants, you have absolutely no point at all.

uptherebels · 13-02-2018 12:35PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

i highlighted the wrong part of his post...should have been the first line:D

Buts he's equally happy with 16 weeks.

Whats stopping our politicans at some future date making it 20 weeks or 24 ...or 28.....you get the picture!

The same thing that's stopping them making it 8,4 or zero weeks.

SusieBlue · 13-02-2018 12:38PM

J C wrote: »

I'd have thought that the answer was obvious ... and they would want to live.
... but if you doubt me, I'll let another abortion survivor tell you whether unborn lives are taken against their will/choice in abortions.

Here Melissa Ohden is addressing a September 9, 2015 US House of Representatives Judiciary Committee hearing into 'rolling back' abortion in America.

Another powerful, strong Christian woman ... who was aborted but survived to 'blow the whistle' on this latter day horror.

That's interesting, I also did some research and found the story of another woman who survived an abortion and she holds no grudges, respects her mothers decision and acknowledges that her mothers life would have been better had the abortion been successful.

Link here

Some excerpts:

If I were her, I probably would have aborted. It has nothing to do with her maternal instincts – she already had two kids. It’s just that it wasn’t the right time.

Am I glad that she didn’t succeed? I don’t really care. I am glad I am alive, but not necessarily because I am glad my mother didn’t do it. I shouldn’t have a say in it. It’s her body. It’s her choice.

It would have been much better for my mum’s mental and physical health if she had had the abortion. It was never an idea for me that women shouldn’t be given the right to abort because their kids could grow up, get an education, get a good life, all that.

So I think after reading that, we can categorically say, that not all of the unborn would choose to live, some respect that their mothers should have a choice.

pilly · 13-02-2018 12:41PM

The level of hysteria that's being resorted to in here is madness. Now we're talking about euthanizing new-borns?

When all else fails resort to hysteria. Hyperbole of the highest order and disgusting carry on.

end of the road · 13-02-2018 12:41PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

That's interesting, I also did some research and found the story of another woman who survived an abortion and she holds no grudges, respects her mothers decision and acknowledges that her mothers life would have been better had the abortion been successful.

Link here

Some excerpts:

So I think after reading that, we can categorically say, that not all of the unborn would choose to live, some respect that their mothers should have a choice.

no we can safely say the unborn want the right to life and we have a duty to insure that continues to happen in this country.

pilly wrote: »

The level of hysteria that's being resorted to in here is madness. Now we're talking about euthanizing new-borns?

When all else fails resort to hysteria. Hyperbole of the highest order and disgusting carry on.

no, just some real possibilities that will come our way in the future if the eliberal agenda gets it's way. that is why we have to debate them now as part of the 8th debate, as should it be repealed and the government are able to legislate, there is nothing that will stop them from doing what they like.

pilly · 13-02-2018 12:43PM

Whilst we're on the subject of euthanizing newborns however, the Catholic Church is the only organisation in Ireland that has a history of doing so. All the more reason for these decisions to be taken out of their hands.

SusieBlue · 13-02-2018 12:43PM

end of the road wrote: »

no we can safely say the unborn want the right to life and we have a duty to insure that continues to happen in this country.

I literally just provided a link three posts up to debunk that theory. You are incorrect.

SusieBlue · 13-02-2018 12:45PM

pilly wrote: »

Whilst we're on the subject of euthanizing newborns however, the Catholic Church is the only organisation in Ireland that has a history of doing so. All the more reason for these decisions to be taken out of their hands.

Its the height of hypocrisy this is being used as a scaremongering tactic to frighten people into voting no, I wonder are their memories too short to remember the atrocities of the Tuam mother and baby homes, et al.

pilly · 13-02-2018 12:49PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Its the height of hypocrisy this is being used as a scaremongering tactic to frighten people into voting no, I wonder are their memories too short to remember the atrocities of the Tuam mother and baby homes, et al.

Or indeed the thailidomide babies who were left to die because they were deformed.

end of the road · 13-02-2018 12:51PM

pilly wrote: »

Whilst we're on the subject of euthanizing newborns however, the Catholic Church is the only organisation in Ireland that has a history of doing so. All the more reason for these decisions to be taken out of their hands.

well they aren't allowed to do it anymore thankfully, and they should never have been able to get away with it in the first place. it was barbaric. however, the catholic church have nothing to do with this debate, this is about humanity.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I literally just provided a link three posts up to debunk that theory. You are incorrect.

the thing is it didn't debunk it as the woman is now an adult and has formed her viewpoint. when she was unborn she would have been unable to state her wishes. it is assumed that a fetus wishes to live bar exceptional circumstances and thanks to the relevant law this woman survived her attempted abortion.

SusieBlue · 13-02-2018 12:56PM

end of the road wrote: »

the thing is it didn't debunk it as the woman is now an adult and has formed her viewpoint. when she was unborn she would have been unable to state her wishes. it is assumed that a fetus wishes to live bar exceptional circumstances and thanks to the relevant law this woman survived her attempted abortion.

Nope sorry that doesn't cut it, as you said we don't know either way what their wishes are so we can't assume, that would be wrong of us.

JC provided a link to show a woman who is pro-life after her experience, I provided one to show a woman who is pro-choice after hers.

Both are correct and both are relevant - and they prove that we don't know either way, so we can't insist they would all choose to live or choose to not have existed.

pilly · 13-02-2018 12:58PM

end of the road wrote: »

well they aren't allowed to do it anymore thankfully, and they should never have been able to get away with it in the first place. it was barbaric. however, the catholic church have nothing to do with this debate, this is about humanity.

the thing is it didn't debunk it as the woman is now an adult and has formed her viewpoint. when she was unborn she would have been unable to state her wishes. it is assumed that a fetus wishes to live bar exceptional circumstances and thanks to the relevant law this woman survived her attempted abortion.

You do know which thread you're in don't you?

end of the road · 13-02-2018 01:13PM

pilly wrote: »

You do know which thread you're in don't you?

i do yes. however, there are many varients of christianity. it is the religion and it's teachings that are relevant to this strand of the debate, not the specific church and the behaviours of people within those churches.
this is not a referendum about whethr you like the catholic church or not, dispite some elements of the pro-choice movement trying to make it out to be.

pilly · 13-02-2018 01:32PM

end of the road wrote: »

i do yes. however, there are many varients of christianity. it is the religion and it's teachings that are relevant to this strand of the debate, not the specific church and the behaviours of people within those churches.
this is not a referendum about whethr you like the catholic church or not, dispite some elements of the pro-choice movement trying to make it out to be.

<snip> of the highest order, you have no interest in Christianity.

end of the road · 13-02-2018 02:01PM

pilly wrote: »

<snip> of the highest order, you have no interest in Christianity.

yes i am non-religious. however, religious, non-religious, and those inbetween have a duty to see passed our differences and beliefs to work together to insure acts of barbarity are prevented from being allowed where they don't exist, and long term, removed from places where they do.
united we stand, divided we fall, regardless of differences and beliefs.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 13-02-2018 02:57PM

Good man, JC, you're playing a blinder.

....... · 13-02-2018 02:58PM

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ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 13-02-2018 02:59PM

....... wrote:

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Note I did not congratulate you.

....... · 13-02-2018 03:00PM

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ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 13-02-2018 03:07PM

....... wrote:

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What's human thinking got to do with God? Whatever you think, humanly speaking, is a million miles from God's thinking.

....... · 13-02-2018 03:08PM

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pilly · 13-02-2018 03:08PM

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

What's human thinking got to do with God? Whatever you think, humanly speaking, is a million miles from God's thinking.

Never a truer word was uttered.

I'm so surprised we agree on so much baloney.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 13-02-2018 03:09PM

pilly wrote:

I'm so surprised we agree on so much baloney.

I call myself eoinybaloney, but it's only irony.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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