Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

2wsxcde3 · 12-02-2018 11:21AM

Gunmonkey wrote: »

So what your saying is...we need to keep abortions banned to respect the wishes and bodily autonomy of a small group of women......over that of the wishes and bodily autonomy of the vast majority of women who want abortion!

So you acknowledge that vulnerable women up and down Ireland are going to get caught in the cross fire if abortion on demand is introduced into Ireland. At least you're one of the honest ones on the pro-choice side.

And its not just abusive boyfriends/husbands that put pressure on women to have abortions. Ordinary guys will be doing it too. Very few guys jump with joy when they find out their girlfriend is pregnant. I'd say 95% feel sick to their stomach when they find out. Very easy in such a case to put pressure on their girlfriend by saying "Its just a trip down to the GP and you can take of it. A pill is all it takes. Don't you love me?".

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Hotblack Desiato · 12-02-2018 11:28AM

Hoboo wrote: »

I dont agree with abortion if the contraception fails. Thats just shirking your responsibilities. If you're not responsible enough to have a child, then don't risk making one.

So somebody you say is not responsible enough to have a child, should nonetheless be forced to have one?

There is no logic whatsoever in this or in your other post.

seamus · 12-02-2018 11:29AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

And its not just abusive boyfriends/husbands that put pressure on women to have abortions. Ordinary guys will be doing it too. Very few guys jump with joy when they find out their girlfriend is pregnant. I'd say 95% feel sick to their stomach when they find out. Very easy in such a case to put pressure on their girlfriend by saying "Its just a trip down to the GP and you can take of it. A pill is all it takes. Don't you love me?".

Emotional blackmail such as "Don't you love me" qualifies one as abusive.

You can't say that an "ordinary" man will blackmail his girlfriend into abortion. That's a statement at odds with itself. A man who would coerce a partner into something they do not want to do, is by definition an abuser.

You also cannot apply your own personal position and assume it's everyone's. 95% of men will feel sick to their stomach at an unintended pregnancy? Nice bit of a sexism there. Really illustrates your very warped perspective on this whole debate.

SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 11:30AM

Hoboo wrote: »

Its much easier to end a life thats not yours and doesn't resemble a fully developed person. If the choice was have the child, and 'suck it up' as you put it, or euthanasia of the mother rather than just abortion of the child, you'd see people suddenly becoming very responsible.

Saying the child would be better off dead is ridiculous, if the mother is not responsible enough to look after the child, there are plenty of responsible loving people out there who would be cut off their right arm to be parents. Its not the only choice.

My concern is abortion becoming a convenience for an inconvenience rather than what it should be for....a surgical procedure of last resort. I think the concept and understanding of the importance of life, at no matter what stage, is completely lost.

I must be blue in the face from saying it at this stage, but domestic adoption in this country is non existent.
What we do have is long term foster care, which is a fate I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
When you consider how dramatically the size of the average Irish family has decreased, and note the amount of couples opting not to have kids, not to mention the advances in fertility treatments (specifically clomid and IVF) you will see there is little to no appetite for adoption in Ireland.
Those that do, opt to adopt internationally, because its easier and cheaper.

And if you honestly think giving her the option between euthanisia for herself or keeping the pregnancy is the way forward, and would be a good way to control unplanned pregnancies, well I don't even know how to respond to that. What a disgusting thing to even suggest.

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SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 11:38AM

I have a question for the pro-lifers.

Would you be confidently happy for your wife/sister/mother/friend to die at the expense of not aborting a less than 12 week old pregnancy?

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 12:28PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I must be blue in the face from saying it at this stage, but domestic adoption in this country is non existent.

And if you honestly think giving her the option between euthanisia for herself or keeping the pregnancy is the way forward, and would be a good way to control unplanned pregnancies, well I don't even know how to respond to that. What a disgusting thing to even suggest.

Non existent? You clearly don't know anything about adoption in Ireland.

I don't think euthanasia would be a way to control unplanned pregnancies, it was a a hypothetical proposition. How ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

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SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 12:42PM

Hoboo wrote: »

Non existent? You clearly don't know anything about adoption in Ireland.

I don't think euthanasia would be a way to control unplanned pregnancies, it was a a hypothetical proposition. How ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Adoption and social care is actually an area I have a lot of experience in.
With the exception of inter-familial adoptions (where a relative adopts the child from a parent who cannot cope) and step-parent adoptions, there is very limited domestic adoption.

This is because when a child is taken from parents who have failed in their duty of care, they are placed in emergency foster care. They remain there while Tusla conduct their investigations.
The Irish state recognises the best interest of the child is to remain with their natural parents.
Because of this, its a long, extremely drawn out process where all avenues are exhausted and explored before parental rights are removed and the child is available for adoption. By this point he/she will have spent many years in foster care.

The only time an infant is available for immediate adoption is where the child is an orphan, and no living relative is willing to take on the child. In those cases, immediate adoption at the earliest convenience is allowed because there are no parental rights being removed.
This would be a rarity because in the event of one or both parents dying, there is almost always a relative willing to adopt the child.

I don't think its in the best interests of any child to put them through that process unnecessarily.

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 02:04PM

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Ill make this simple. Why there are so few infant adoptions? Because there are so few infants available for adoption. On the flip-side, there are 14 times the number of couples hoping to adopt than infants available. So not sure what your attempting to demonstrate with the stats above.

I didn't retract any statement, it was 'hypotetchical'. An imaginary situation. Not to be taken literally.

Gunmonkey · 12-02-2018 02:07PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

So you acknowledge that vulnerable women up and down Ireland are going to get caught in the cross fire if abortion on demand is introduced into Ireland. At least you're one of the honest ones on the pro-choice side.

And its not just abusive boyfriends/husbands that put pressure on women to have abortions. Ordinary guys will be doing it too. Very few guys jump with joy when they find out their girlfriend is pregnant. I'd say 95% feel sick to their stomach when they find out. Very easy in such a case to put pressure on their girlfriend by saying "Its just a trip down to the GP and you can take of it. A pill is all it takes. Don't you love me?".

But that is very selective reasoning. the fact this may happen (you bandy about figures of 95%...care to back them up?) but the availability of abortion is not the issue here; its, as seamus pointed out, a case of abuse!

Put it this way: is it the same as a boyfriend/husband/father (why are mothers not featured here?) encouraging/pressuring a woman to drink a pint or two at a family gathering she doesnt want to, so the only rational decision is to ban all alcohol right? I know there is a stark difference between abortion and drinking but that points out the inconsistency with your assessment: its not an issue with the implied result being forced but the action of forcing her thats the problem in this instance. Its been said here that women are being coerced into paying thousands to go to the UK for abortions.....so keeping them banned wont resolve this issue, if it already happens here! Would it?

You say that 95% of men dont jump for joy when they find out a partner is pregnant...but I would highly doubt every woman would be skipping down the stairs when they find out they are either!

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 02:09PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

there is very limited domestic adoption.

The only reason infant domestic adoption is limited is due to supply. No other reason. There are 14 times more prospective adopters. So there is a choice, and adoption is one.

....... · 12-02-2018 02:12PM

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SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 02:22PM

Hoboo wrote: »

Ill make this simple. Why there are so few infant adoptions? Because there are so few infants available for adoption. On the flip-side, there are 14 times the number of couples hoping to adopt than infants available. So not sure what your attempting to demonstrate with the stats above.

I didn't retract any statement, it was 'hypotetchical'. An imaginary situation. Not to be taken literally.

Where are you pulling your 14 times figure?
There are currently 6k children in Irish foster care.
Many of them are probably infants.
The state recognises the best interests of each child is to have the opportunity to be cared for by their natural parents. Short of removing these parental rights prematurely (and perhaps wrongly), the number of infants available for adoption will not increase.
The only way around this would be to remove parental rights immediately when children are taken into care, which cannot happen.

Are you honestly suggesting we encourage more people to have children they do not want, so they can be placed in foster care on the weak whim that they might hopefully be adopted?

Children are not something we treat as supply and demand.
Even if the 14 times figure you produced (which seems dubious at best) was real, we should not be encouraging women to have children they do not want just to meet the demand of perspective adoptive parents.
They are not cattle, they are human beings. What you want sounds similar to how the Magdelene Laundries operated.

end of the road · 12-02-2018 02:45PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is still not a reason to ban abortion here and force even more women to travel unnecessarily.

for medical reasons such as FFA and the mother's life being at risk + other extreme cases, completely agree. because she doesn't want a child, then it's not the state's responsibility or problem to facilitate her having an abortion.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Cool, so you are onboard to repeal the 8th.

no, i'm not on board with repealing the 8th unfortunately, given abortion on demand will be the outcome, along with the government legislating on abortion. it's not possible for me to vote for anything that will allow abortion on demand, or the goverment to legislate for something that will ultimately allow the taking of the life of the unborn.

....... wrote: »

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no you aren't. that's like saying someone who believes that in certain cases it is necessary to kill someone because they pose a threat, agrees with all killings.

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it very much is one of many good reasons why we have to keep abortion on demand out of ireland. forced abortions are something we must protect against.

Wombatman · 12-02-2018 02:59PM

end of the road wrote: »

for medical reasons such as FFA and the mother's life being at risk + other extreme cases, completely agree. because she doesn't want a child, then it's not the state's responsibility or problem to facilitate her having an abortion.

Following this logic it's not the state's responsibility to impede her from having an abortion. So you are saying the state should not restrict abortion services in Ireland.

end of the road wrote: »

it very much is one of many good reasons why we have to keep abortion on demand out of ireland. forced abortions are something we must protect against.

Who is forcing women to have abortions again?

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2018 03:34PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Who is forcing women to have abortions again?

Hypothetical abusive boyfriends.

....... · 12-02-2018 03:39PM

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Gunmonkey · 12-02-2018 04:09PM

....... wrote: »

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Is it beside the hypothetical childrens ward for specialist operations we could have built if not for all the abortions-on-demand we havent conducted in this country? Because there is a flaw in the logic of that statement....just cant place my finger on it.....

end of the road wrote: »

there is no deflection, just the truth being told. the issue of sick children having to go to the uk has everything to do with abortion as the money that would be spent on abortion on demand could go some way toards making it less likely for children to have to go to the uk for treatment.

Please, since this is so important to the debate on abortion, can you bequeath us lowly mortals the details how the payment of non-occurring abortions in this country (so...€0) has denied us a specialist child surgery department in one of our fine medical establishments! Because unless the government has been setting aside money each year to pay for abortions-on-demand in a future it becomes legal, there has been no stopping them doing this...so where did the money go? It might seem slightly off-topic but, as we all know....

the issue of sick children having to go to the uk has everything to do with abortion

Surely this big pot would have been handy to dip into in 2008, or was it a case of:

"Yis can take the pensions...ah sure drop the public sector wages a bit...taxes go up obviously...WHAT ARE YA DOING, thats the abortion money, leave that alone lads!"

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 06:02PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Where are you pulling your 14 times figure?
.

Kiernan Gildea from the Adoption Authority of Ireland

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 06:14PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Where are you pulling your 14 times figure?
There are currently 6k children in Irish foster care.
Many of them are probably infants.

Could you be more specific than "many" and "probably"? Im talking about Domestic Infant Adoption, not foster care. Completely different. You should know that.

2wsxcde3 · 12-02-2018 06:22PM

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Please, since this is so important to the debate on abortion, can you bequeath us lowly mortals the details how the payment of non-occurring abortions in this country (so...€0) has denied us a specialist child surgery department in one of our fine medical establishments!

The citizens assembly cost money. The May referendum costs money. We're talking €20m+. Thats how this whole abortion debate has cost us a specialist ward to help children who suffer from arthritis.

The connection between children travelling in pain to the UK to get treatment and women travelling to the UK to have an abortion is valid. They are both travelling to the UK for a service that doesn't exist in Ireland. But the media seem to have prioritized women wanting an abortion over sick children. No mention at all of the sick children.

SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 06:25PM

Hoboo wrote: »

Could you be more specific than "many" and "probably"? Im talking about Domestic Infant Adoption, not foster care. Completely different. You should know that.

Infants are only put up for immediate adoption if they are orphans and no relatives are willing to adopt them.
This is an extremely rare occurrence. I would guess the 5 babies that were adopted last year were those types of cases, although I obviously don’t know for certain, so if you want to know for sure try googling it.
All the other infants with living parents are put into foster care, while social services investigate whether the parents are suitable to care for the child.
These investigations can take years to complete so that ample opportunity is given to the natural parents to get their children back.

I am well aware of the differences between domestic adoption and foster care, it’s you who doesn’t seem to have a clue.
Suggesting children are born purely to meet the demand of perspective adoptive parents as a means of dealing with crisis pregnancies says it all really.

Gunmonkey · 12-02-2018 07:23PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The citizens assembly cost money. The May referendum costs money. We're talking €20m+. Thats how this whole abortion debate has cost us a specialist ward to help children who suffer from arthritis.

The connection between children travelling in pain to the UK to get treatment and women travelling to the UK to have an abortion is valid. They are both travelling to the UK for a service that doesn't exist in Ireland. But the media seem to have prioritized women wanting an abortion over sick children. No mention at all of the sick children.

Oh right I see what your getting at. Just one question then....did childhood arthritis only appear in 2016 or something? Why wasnt this stuff built five years ago or a decade ago or two decades ago then?

Do you have an actual quote from the government saying this specialist wing was not pushed forward because of the 8th amendment committee? Because otherwise your talking sh**e, and trying to pin this onto a debate we need to have in this country.

Big pool of money to build houses announced in the last budget, or have these sick kids only started cropping up after the housing shortage (which isnt even 10 years old).
Public sector wages and welfare are bloated with costs in the billions each year, could easily skim off €2-3m a year for 4 years to get your €20m no sweat.
Government funds the National Orchestra, why not take some of that, or are a few folks with chellos and violins more important than sick kids?
Plenty of money in the gov yearly budget to find €20m for some sick kids, Im actually surprised we havent seen someone banging on about this all the time on TV, or its a massive campaign for the main political parties, its a no-lose issue: who would say no to helping sick kids?

Or maybe...just maybe...its not been built because its not economically viable to build/operate/staff/train (I can only assume taking far more than €20m) this specialist wing because the number of potential patients is so low its just far easier and cheaper to send them to an already existing specialist department in the UK!

As for this not being a big thing in the media, get the message out there then ! Why whine on here if its so terrible, call into a radio station or email/tweet some Ministers to get the word out about this travesty! Go onto Liveline tomorrow, tell them:
"Oh Joe its terrible...we dont have a specialist arthritis wing here and have to send the kids to the UK..and the money has been spent on this stupid 8th amendment thingy"

Lift the scales from the yes of the masses...we will have pro-choice people collapsing on the street, ruing their hubris and ill conceived ideology now that they know sick children are suffering with arthritis because of this debate!

Geuze · 12-02-2018 11:40PM

Hoboo wrote: »

The only reason infant domestic adoption is limited is due to supply. No other reason. There are 14 times more prospective adopters. So there is a choice, and adoption is one.

Yes, why isn't adoption done more, rather than abortion?

The unborn child's life is saved.

The infertile couple get a baby, which they dearly want.

The woman who doesn't want the baby is relieved of the baby.

2wsxcde3 · 13-02-2018 01:14AM

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Im actually surprised we havent seen someone banging on about this all the time on TV, or its a massive campaign for the main political parties, its a no-lose issue: who would say no to helping sick kids?

The media have created a narrative that we are exporting the problem of abortion. It likes to give the impression that that is the only problem we are exporting. Consequently, these sick children that need a heart transplant or have arthritis and are being exported to the UK every year must be hidden.

2wsxcde3 · 13-02-2018 03:30AM

If abortion pills are coming in to Ireland in bulk packages (as demonstrated by customs), who exactly is buying abortion pills in bulk?

The theory was that unscrupulous distributors were selling these on the black market in Ireland. This explanation might have made sense in 2010 or 2011 etc when abortion pills were not widely known of in Ireland and so a black market could exist. But abortion pills are well known now. Women can get them online themselves without going to a black market. This is especially so as she would not know the quality of the pill she would be getting on the black market. She could trust abortion pills from Women on Web though. And critically, they can be got for free on Women on Web (if a woman tells them she can't afford to pay them).

So if a woman can get these pills for free online, then no black market for abortion pills should exist in Ireland. So who is bulk buying abortion pills online and delivering them to Ireland? There is now a very real possibility that the pro-choice side are bulk buying abortion pills online and having them delivered to the Rep. of Ireland in order to give the impression that 1000's of women in Ireland are using these. And this would have to be done in order to counteract the inconvenient fact that there has been a continuous drop in the number of Irish women travelling to the UK each year to get an abortion despite Irelands expanding population size in this time. The numbers have been dropping since 2001, long before the availability of abortion pills online.

Edward M · 13-02-2018 07:57AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

If abortion pills are coming in to Ireland in bulk packages (as demonstrated by customs), who exactly is buying abortion pills in bulk?

The theory was that unscrupulous distributors were selling these on the black market in Ireland. This explanation might have made sense in 2010 or 2011 etc when abortion pills were not widely known of in Ireland and so a black market could exist. But abortion pills are well known now. Women can get them online themselves without going to a black market. This is especially so as she would not know the quality of the pill she would be getting on the black market. She could trust abortion pills from Women on Web though. And critically, they can be got for free on Women on Web (if a woman tells them she can't afford to pay them).

So if a woman can get these pills for free online, then no black market for abortion pills should exist in Ireland. So who is bulk buying abortion pills online and delivering them to Ireland? There is now a very real possibility that the pro-choice side are bulk buying abortion pills online and having them delivered to the Rep. of Ireland in order to give the impression that 1000's of women in Ireland are using these. And this would have to be done in order to counteract the inconvenient fact that there has been a continuous drop in the number of Irish women travelling to the UK each year to get an abortion despite Irelands expanding population size in this time. The numbers have been dropping since 2001, long before the availability of abortion pills online.

But they can be gotten online, you admit that, even say where they can be gotten.
We know that women travel for abortion, that's freely admitted also.
The comparisons you make about sending other medical conditions abroad for help is not really a comparison that is fair at all.
I would say its regrettable these conditions can't be successfully treated here from start to finish, but I wouldn't call that exporting these conditions at all.
Rather I would say its seeking help and getting it, the best outcome for the patient sought, from start to finish.
Comparing that to just turning a blind eye to something is not in the least bit a fair comparison.
Imagine if a heart patient was told, no sorry, die or go abroad, or get help online, we can't help you here?

Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

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