Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

ancapailldorcha · 11-02-2018 10:02PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no deflection, just the truth being told. the issue of sick children having to go to the uk has everything to do with abortion as the money that would be spent on abortion on demand could go some way toards making it less likely for children to have to go to the uk for treatment.

Is this not a little bit sick? Using ill children to score points for your agenda is a bit low IMO. You could say the same thing about old people's homes if you wanted to pursue such a utilitarian agenda.

end of the road · 11-02-2018 10:04PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

As I already just told you on another thread, I won’t be replying to any more of your posts.

i'm sorry to hear that and you feel that way. but i understand that it is difficult to be challenged on your views, and to be shown why your viewpoint cannot ultimately work in reality, given the nature of what is being discussed and the outcome involved.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Referendums typically cost in the region of €20m to hold. Add in the cost of the citizens assembly on top of that, and Minister Harris could be today cutting the ribbon on a arthritis ward for sick children in Ireland. Instead no ward exists. These sick children will have to continue travelling over and back to the UK in pain.

i completely agree. it's beyond belief really, but sadly not surprising. ireland has always refused to get some of it's priorities right.

ForestFire · 11-02-2018 10:06PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Referendums typically cost in the region of €20m to hold. Add in the cost of the citizens assembly on top of that, and Minister Harris could be today cutting the ribbon on a arthritis ward for sick children in Ireland. Instead no ward exists. These sick children will have to continue travelling over and back to the UK in pain.

This is not a valid argument not to have a referendum on the 8th amendment.

If you are going to go down this road,

What about the arts grants,
The grants for athletes,
The money spend n the flower boxes in Dublin ...
home improvement grants,
EV car grants
and so on and so on

The referendum needs to happen is some form

I don't agree with the current form at the moment, but regardless it needs to happen and 20m is insignificant in terms of the government budget.

2wsxcde3 · 11-02-2018 10:18PM

By the way, how many of these women travelling to the UK for abortions are being forced to by abusive boyfriends/husbands etc? We never hear about these women.

If abortion up to 12 weeks is brought in here, women in Ireland can now expect to be subjected to the following things from their boyfriends on finding out they are pregnant:

Have you considered terminating the pregnancy?
If you love me you'll have an abortion.
If you continue with this pregnancy i'm breaking up with you.

At the moment, the fact that abortion is a far away thing in the UK (and can cost €1000+) and online abortion pills carry a potential 14 year sentence offers a significant protection to women from abusive boyfriends/husbands. There is enough of a deterrent there at the moment. But if a woman only has to go to a GP for an abortion pill (if the referendum passes), women up and down Ireland are going to find themselves all of a sudden under pressure from their boyfriend/husbands to have an abortion against their own personal wishes.

oscarBravo · 12-02-2018 01:05AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

By the way, how many of these women travelling to the UK for abortions are being forced to by abusive boyfriends/husbands etc? We never hear about these women.

If abortion up to 12 weeks is brought in here, women in Ireland can now expect to be subjected to the following things from their boyfriends on finding out they are pregnant:

Have you considered terminating the pregnancy?
If you love me you'll have an abortion.
If you continue with this pregnancy i'm breaking up with you.

At the moment, the fact that abortion is a far away thing in the UK (and can cost €1000+) and online abortion pills carry a potential 14 year sentence offers a significant protection to women from abusive boyfriends/husbands. There is enough of a deterrent there at the moment. But if a woman only has to go to a GP for an abortion pill (if the referendum passes), women up and down Ireland are going to find themselves all of a sudden under pressure from their boyfriend/husbands to have an abortion against their own personal wishes.

Your sympathy for putative women who are forced to have abortions would be a lot more convincing if it was coupled with sympathy for women who are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

Edward M · 12-02-2018 01:43AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

In other words, we are exporting the problem of sick children in this country and you don't care.

So if we export abortion we don't care either?
These are silly arguments really!
If you support the eighth then you support the right to travel to have an abortion, really and truly that is hypocritical in the extreme, like fcuk off and have it in England, that'll be grand then?
The eighth doesent stop abortion, just makes it harder to get!

Hotblack Desiato · 12-02-2018 10:26AM

If the sort of nonsense seen in the last few posts is the best the anti-choice side can do, then repeal will pass easily.

You with the bot name, I will not be replying to you again as it's clear you did not bother to read my replies to you.

Hotblack Desiato · 12-02-2018 10:32AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I think we can all collectively agree that it’s awful that children have to go to the UK to receive certain medical treatments.
That has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

Eh no. We don't all agree, did you also fail to read my post?

It's an unfortunate fact of life that in a small country the expertise to treat very rare conditions cannot exist. This is NOT a question of money.

Same issue affects very small A&E departments here, if they do not see enough patients in a year then the quality of care will be reduced. When we centralised cancer care, patient survival increased.

....... · 12-02-2018 10:37AM

This post has been deleted.

SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 10:42AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Eh no. We don't all agree, did you also fail to read my post?

It's an unfortunate fact of life that in a small country the expertise to treat very rare conditions cannot exist. This is NOT a question of money.

Same issue affects very small A&E departments here, if they do not see enough patients in a year then the quality of care will be reduced. When we centralised cancer care, patient survival increased.

It can be a fact of life and still be awful. `
In an ideal world we wouldn't have to travel to receive ANY medical treatments, unfortunately we aren't equipped to treat rare illnesses so people have to travel. It might be reality and I can see why as a small country its necessary but I still think its awful.

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2018 10:53AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

In an ideal world we wouldn't have to travel to receive ANY medical treatments, unfortunately we aren't equipped to treat rare illnesses so people have to travel. It might be reality and I can see why as a small country its necessary but I still think its awful.

It is still not a reason to ban abortion here and force even more women to travel unnecessarily.

SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 10:54AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is still not a reason to ban abortion here and force even more women to travel unnecessarily.

I completely agree, that's what I said myself!

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 11:00AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Your sympathy for putative women who are forced to have abortions would be a lot more convincing if it was coupled with sympathy for women who are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

If you don't want the bun, don't throw the mix in the oven.

osarusan · 12-02-2018 11:07AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

By the way, how many of these women travelling to the UK for abortions are being forced to by abusive boyfriends/husbands etc? We never hear about these women.

If abortion up to 12 weeks is brought in here, women in Ireland can now expect to be subjected to the following things from their boyfriends on finding out they are pregnant:

Have you considered terminating the pregnancy?
If you love me you'll have an abortion.
If you continue with this pregnancy i'm breaking up with you.

You are flailing round desperately for an argument now, looking for something, anything, that will stick.

....... · 12-02-2018 11:11AM

This post has been deleted.

ancapailldorcha · 12-02-2018 11:17AM

Hoboo wrote: »

If you don't want the bun, don't throw the mix in the oven.

Or you could stop living in the dark ages and afford women the basic rights they have in most Western countries.

seamus · 12-02-2018 11:18AM

Hoboo wrote: »

If you don't want the bun, don't throw the mix in the oven.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who seem to think that women deserve to be punished for having sex.

They'd never deny medical treatment to someone injured in a car crash, but when it comes to pregnancy suddenly you deserve to be punished for taking the risk of having sex.

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 11:26AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Im not pro life, Id say Im more pro face your responsibilities.

Im fully supportive of abortion in some cases, rape, incest, when the mothers life is in danger or if the baby will not survive, beyond doubt

I dont agree with abortion if the contraception fails. Thats just shirking your responsibilities. If you're not responsible enough to have a child, then don't risk making one.

2wsxcde3 · 12-02-2018 11:30AM

seamus wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who seem to think that women deserve to be punished for having sex.

Aren't men punished for having sex - ie forced to pay child support for the next 18 years of their life? Could you imagine if women were made do the same?!

Gunmonkey · 12-02-2018 11:31AM

end of the road wrote: »

there is no deflection, just the truth being told. the issue of sick children having to go to the uk has everything to do with abortion as the money that would be spent on abortion on demand could go some way toards making it less likely for children to have to go to the uk for treatment.

*gasp*

He has done it!

*starts clapping*

*rest of audience starts clapping too*

You did it, end of the road......you actually did it......its beautiful....words cannot describe it...its...its *kisses fingertips* mwuha...bellissimo!

This is it folks....the ultimate ****-post, the infinite non-argument! We didnt think he could do it.....on a website filled with completely useless posts and stupid as F opinions, end of the road dug deep and delivered what must be the gold standard for inane bull**** as a response!

Are you serious? I mean, how can you think this is an argument? Will we then start debating every single proposed policy that is not happening and then claim ".....oh but abortion is stopping it!"

No extra classrooms or teachers...abortion!
No motorway between Galway and Cork...abortion!
No deepwater ports in Limerick...abortion!
No DART underground...abortion!

Is this your actual argument? Because I would direct you to this quote from Andyfitzer's opening post (a posy you thanked so must agree with)....

There is some emotive language used when addressing the woman - compassionate, devastating diagnosis, mental distress - thereby acknowledging her humanity. There is only cold medical language used to describe the human in the womb- termination of pregnancy. The only time they are talked about in any kind of human way is in listing the categories where it should be legal to take their lives, sorry -"terminate". They are called the unborn child then.

So....its bad when the pro-choice side use "emotive language" for their side to be manipulative...but its fair to say "Err...if you support pro-choice you want sick children to die!"

Please dont insult the intelligence of everyone in this thread with bull like this.

2wsxcde3 wrote:

By the way, how many of these women travelling to the UK for abortions are being forced to by abusive boyfriends/husbands etc? We never hear about these women.

If abortion up to 12 weeks is brought in here, women in Ireland can now expect to be subjected to the following things from their boyfriends on finding out they are pregnant:

Have you considered terminating the pregnancy?
If you love me you'll have an abortion.
If you continue with this pregnancy i'm breaking up with you.

At the moment, the fact that abortion is a far away thing in the UK (and can cost €1000+) and online abortion pills carry a potential 14 year sentence offers a significant protection to women from abusive boyfriends/husbands. There is enough of a deterrent there at the moment. But if a woman only has to go to a GP for an abortion pill (if the referendum passes), women up and down Ireland are going to find themselves all of a sudden under pressure from their boyfriend/husbands to have an abortion against their own personal wishes.

So what your saying is...we need to keep abortions banned to respect the wishes and bodily autonomy of a small group of women......over that of the wishes and bodily autonomy of the vast majority of women who want abortion!

women up and down Ireland are going to find themselves all of a sudden under pressure from their boyfriend/husbands to have an abortion against their own personal wishes.

...oh boy, I guess it would be awful for women to have their bodily autonomy dictated by a bunch of men now wouldnt it! Yup, it would be terrible if women in Ireland had a major life choice decided for them by a bunch of men against their wishes...yup....awful...good thing that will never happen here, right?

SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 11:34AM

Hoboo wrote: »

Im not pro life, Id say Im more pro face your responsibilities.

Im fully supportive of abortion in some cases, rape, incest, when the mothers life is in danger or if the baby will not survive, beyond doubt

I dont agree with abortion if the contraception fails. Thats just shirking your responsibilities. If you're not responsible enough to have a child, then don't risk making one.

Do you think its in the best interests of a child to be brought up by a mother who didn't want him and who was forced into parenthood?

Do you feel that the people who are irresponsible enough to get pregnant (your words) should be trusted with the responsibility of bringing up another human being?

If contraception fails, they tried to responsible. They tried to avoid pregnancy. I don't get this attitude of "just suck it up". No one benefits from it, least of all the unplanned child.

You just seem to be keen on making the woman suffer and punishing her, rather than thinking of the best interests of both her and the child.

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2018 11:37AM

Hoboo wrote: »

Im fully supportive of abortion in some cases, rape, incest, when the mothers life is in danger or if the baby will not survive, beyond doubt

Cool, so you are onboard to repeal the 8th.

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2018 11:38AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Aren't men punished for having sex - ie forced to pay child support for the next 18 years of their life? Could you imagine if women were made do the same?!

I don't have to imagine it.

SusieBlue · 12-02-2018 11:39AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Aren't men punished for having sex - ie forced to pay child support for the next 18 years of their life? Could you imagine if women were made do the same?!

Who is looking after the child that the father is paying the child support for?
The woman maybe?!? What a stupid post.

And also, women don't currently have the opportunity that men do, to walk away. A man can stroll off into the sunset and at worst, will have to pay maintenance. This isn't even strictly enforced so if he doesn't bother, it'll be years, if ever, before it catches up with him.

seamus · 12-02-2018 11:44AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Aren't men punished for having sex - ie forced to pay child support for the next 18 years of their life?

Ah, the whataboutery has started.

In any case, the answer to your question is "no". Men can engage in risky sex and the disappear into the night, unaffected by the consequences.

A man who finds himself with an unintentional child is a victim being forced to pay child support. A women who finds herself with one has "allowed mix to be thrown into her oven".

The double standard is real, even if the MRAs would like to pretend that men are the only ones who lose out.

....... · 12-02-2018 11:47AM

This post has been deleted.

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 12:03PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Do you think its in the best interests of a child to be brought up by a mother who didn't want him and who was forced into parenthood? Forced? No one is forcing anyone into parenthood. Adoption is a choice.

Do you feel that the people who are irresponsible enough to get pregnant (your words) should be trusted with the responsibility of bringing up another human being? Absolutely not, adoption is a choice.

If contraception fails, they tried to responsible. They tried to avoid pregnancy. I don't get this attitude of "just suck it up". No one benefits from it, least of all the unplanned child. Its not a case of suck it up, its about facing your responsibilities. Everyone knows contraception can fail, we know the outcomes. If the child doesn't fit into your plans now, thats ok, let it live, have the chance you had, give it up for adoption

You just seem to be keen on making the woman suffer and punishing her, rather than thinking of the best interests of both her and the child. No I don't, very much the opposite from personal experience

Its much easier to end a life thats not yours and doesn't resemble a fully developed person. If the choice was have the child, and 'suck it up' as you put it, or euthanasia of the mother rather than just abortion of the child, you'd see people suddenly becoming very responsible.

Saying the child would be better off dead is ridiculous, if the mother is not responsible enough to look after the child, there are plenty of responsible loving people out there who would be cut off their right arm to be parents. Its not the only choice.

My concern is abortion becoming a convenience for an inconvenience rather than what it should be for....a surgical procedure of last resort. I think the concept and understanding of the importance of life, at no matter what stage, is completely lost.

Hoboo · 12-02-2018 12:10PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Cool, so you are onboard to repeal the 8th.

I wish I was. Unfortunately I don't agree to handing over future decisions to the Dáil. Inserting that caveat sounds like they don't want it repealed at all.

I also don't agree with abortions of convenience up to 12 weeks.

oscarBravo · 12-02-2018 12:15PM

Hoboo wrote: »

Im fully supportive of abortion in some cases, rape, incest, when the mothers life is in danger or if the baby will not survive, beyond doubt

Hoboo wrote: »

I think the concept and understanding of the importance of life, at no matter what stage, is completely lost.

Can you see how these arguments are directly at odds with each other?

You can't logically claim that abortion on demand is bad because of the importance of life at all stages, while also claiming to be supportive of abortion in the case of rape. If it's OK to terminate a pregnancy that resulted from rape, then it makes objective sense that it's OK to terminate a pregnancy for any other reason.

Otherwise you're basically saying that the foetus that results from a rape is less human than any other foetus, which is very much at odds with the view that all lives are equally precious.

Zubeneschamali · 12-02-2018 12:19PM

Hoboo wrote: »

I wish I was. Unfortunately I don't agree to handing over future decisions to the Dáil. Inserting that caveat sounds like they don't want it repealed at all.

I also don't agree with abortions of convenience up to 12 weeks.

But what about all the women with rape, incest and FFA cases that you agree should have access?

Too bad?

In particular, do you have a response to the Citizens Assembly which concluded that for rape there is no option except unrestricted access?

Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

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