MGTOW

Wibbs wrote: »

Unlikely it would affect population too much. Human populations are globally still growing and fast.

The MGTOW idea seems to gain traction in developed nations rather than the less economically powerful ones. Most population growth is happening in areas which aren't exactly booming. It's one of those weird things about humanity. The production of children seems to happen most when we're least capable of providing for them.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Anyway, bit of a tangent there but global demographics are in for a real earthquake over the next few years with lots more young Africans and older Westerners. MGTOW isn't even a blip on that radar.

Only if you're an advocate of multiculturalism... We'll be seeing far more in the way of Africans, Asians, etc coming into the west, since their (already) poor domestic economies won't be capable of supporting the population growth. While in the west, with the general rises in cost of living (over time) and the cost of bringing up children, women's rights towards their bodies/abortion/etc, the birth rates were already dropping across most western countries without men turning to an MGTOW kind of belief system.

After living in China, I can think of the real masses of people out there who would love to come into the west (one of the few reasons to like the PRC policy towards migration)... although that's unlikely to last, since they've removed their own population controls, and have actually incentified having children in certain provinces. The sheer numbers of people out there is staggering.

Not seeking an immigration thread here btw. I've done that kind of discussion to death, and MGTOW is far more interesting.

beefburrito wrote: »

It just we are embracing freedom and breaking away from codependent behaviour,being needy and expectation of our partner to go with the script we have in our head's is an acceptance not a reaction.

Um... You can be successfully involved with a woman without being needy or playing to her whims. I know quite a few men who are able to do that. It seems to be the issue that many men or women take their behavior to extremes. There is a balance to be had without being overly dominant, aggressive, or pushy.[***]

Just as you can be single (actively dating) without this almost adolescent desire for sex always on the brain, but still get quite a bit of sex by default (since women actually seek sexual relationships).

Your attitude just seems a bit odd to me. I am a definite bachelor, love being single, and little interest in marriage (although I'm not excluding the possibility). Different life experiences, and how we dealt with them, I guess. Maybe it's that you already went through the route of marriage, having a child, etc. Whereas, my longest relationship is just shy of 4 years.

Being 40 or 50 just seems too early to give up on a rather fun and interesting part of life.

That's the difference MGTOW guy's will not want to Fck her or disrespect her.

Really? Um... Oh, Lord.

***[TBH, I've always wondered why we don't have communication classes in school to improve relationships between the genders. Providing the tools to understand, empathise, and well, resist the more negative behavior types.]

Middle Man wrote: »

I wouldn't totally agree with this - our infrastructure is sub-par and needs substantial investment - Dublin's Metro, Ireland's Broadband, Water Treatment/Supply/Disposal, Railways, Roads etc. etc. etc. There are similar big challenges in Western society. Now, to get to the point...

TBH I don't see this shift to infrastructure as being an indication of any gender issues. In my mindset, it's more the condemnation of Irish people to become politicians and fail to plan (and deliver) for the future. Instead, Irish politics revolves around "the finger in the dam/dike" and blaming other politicians for not doing something better.

There has always been a general biological difference between men and women (not by way of superiority though) - the Women have traditionally been strong in the communication and social sectors - the Men have traditionally been strong in the calculative and scientific sectors.

I'm skeptical of this traditional mindset since in my opinion, it's more a social construct than a biological one. That women were pushed (by men and other women) into the primary role of being mothers, or the shadows behind the decision-making process, without the need to take public responsibility for what they encourage their "man" to implement. There are so many expressions talking about how women affect the men in their lives. Behind every good man, there is a good woman. Interesting how there isn't a woman behind the bad or evil man.

So we see this movement to ascribe values or behavior to certain genders, but in many cases, it was the constraints of society that pushed those values on them. Throughout history, women have had only one role exclusive to them. That of the mother. However, throughout that same history, at various times men have been the guardian, the protector, the legal representative, etc

And I've never bought into this idea that women had no actual power and that society was driven solely by women. The relationships I've seen in traditionally male-dominated societies (China, Thailand, Malaysia, Japan, Parts of Africa, etc) have always shown the influence of women in the relationship, although usually not obviously in public. In China, where money is the indication of wealth/power, the wife controls the money (Traditionally the husband gives her his salary every payday and asks for pocket money for the week). I could list dozens of other examples of how women subtly or rather unsubtly influence marriages and other relationships, which clearly puts paid to this idea of women having little power.

So this belief that women are moderators seems shallow to me aswell. Some may well be. But for example, at the end of ww2, in Italy & France, it was other women who were the biggest accusers of women who collaborated with the enemy and demanded their deaths. In the Inquisitions of the Church, Christian Nuns were often just as fanatic about the deaths of heretics as their male brethren.

This belief about women being moderators or there to hold back the more aggressive tendencies of men is propaganda.

People are people. Women are people too.

It has also been found that in testing social interaction among children (in couples of the same gender) in the USA (where an activity was provided), the girls were more focused on the other person (communication and social interaction) where the boys were more focussed on the activity (logistics and teamwork).

Can I see this research? I'd be interested to read it.

Of course, there will always be a certain crossover factor (women being interested in construction and men being interested in social care for example). That said, it cannot be ignored that the men have traditionally been the drivers of society while the women acted very effectively as the moderators - both are extremely important.

Anything can be ignored. And we are seeing more crossovers in disciplines because society is accepting more crossovers. Had society been welcoming for women to be soldiers in the 17th century, then more women would have become soldiers. It's just that neither men or women wanted women to become soldiers (although we can find plenty of references to female soldiers or warriors around the world who acted against social pressures)

Now, we see very clear examples across the globe wherein the absence of moderation, we have conflict and in the absence of drive, little gets done and infrastructure starts falling apart - thus we need a proper balance.

Feminism has a lot to answer for but... nah, not this.

Western society is breaking down due to too many changes within a short time, without any real consideration of how those changes will affect us in the future. Feminism plays a part in that, but then so too does the fall of Christian influence, globalisation, human rights movements, etc.

Much of Western society has become feminised to the point that the drive aspect of men is being suppressed and that there has been less and less desire to get infrastructure done in Ireland

Where are all of these grand monuments to Irish productivity? Where are all these indications that Irish people were more productive or inspired in the past? Irish infrastructure is traditionally rubbish.

You really should travel around the world and compare what other small nations have done, with Ireland. You'd realise that the answer isn't related to gender.

Is is anything to do with the fact that being a real man is so uncool and that to have drive and ambition is too 'manly' in Irish society and that men should think the way women do?

Feminism and society (political drive) is for being male to be blamed for everything. It doesn't mean that it's accepted (yet), and there's nothing to be done about it.

Resist! Bloody hell. I'm hardly the poster child for being perceived as manly, but I'm not going to behave the way feminists, or metoo nutcases want simply because they can't take responsibility for their personal life choices. Bugger that.

Society will realise soon enough that being manly is necessary, not for the reasons you've given, but simply because most women won't respect a man that doesn't stand up to them. It's just a minority of women who want their men to be weaklings. Society will also realise (eventually) that women need to take responsibility for their own behavior separate to how men respond to them. So, getting drunk alone in a bar is dodgy behavior for anyone, nevermind women, and frankly, they're responsible for what happens because they chose to go out unaccompanied. Just as I would as a man.

Equality is a bitch. Eventually, society will catch up on that.

Ireland needs people with drive and ambition,

Than God for the Polish!

but also needs moderation in order to maintain the balance - for example, if we have to demolish homes to make way for infrastructure, then so be it.

Dublin needs to wise up and accept that it needs highrise apartment complexes and to do away with this impractical desire for houses (and small apartments) everywhere. Housing Shortage? I used to live in a 30-floor apartment complex with four towers and could accommodate roughly 5-6k people, in an area much smaller than the average Dublin housing estate. A push for people & business to move out of Dublin and make the rest of the country better would also make sense... not going happen though.

At the same time, there needs to be safeguards to ensure fair treatment for the people impacted upon. We also need the motivation aspect in society, but we must also have the social conscience embedded too.

Bugger that. We need to balance protection with responsibility and cut out this entitlement belief. The world is a hard place (and will become much harder), Ireland is not a major economic nation, and going deeper into national debt is not the answer to satisfy (although they're never really satisfied) the needs of the intentionally weak.

In short, society needs both real men and real women - not overgrown children!

Woot! Completely agree. Good luck though. Modern society encourages this entitlement belief for everything.