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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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  • #1862
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Gender and pretty much all disabilities cannot be detected at 12 weeks so your point is moot.
    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    You cannot tell the sex of a foetus at 12 weeks so there you go again telling more lies in a lame attempt to score emotional points.
    pilly wrote: »
    You can't tell the sex by 12 weeks. You guys really need some biology lessons.
    You're looking at cartoons too long.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Why are you telling lies? Gender cannot be determined at 12 weeks..
    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    OK I think these allegations of "lying" have gone on long enough.
    Its time for you guys to "put up or shut up". Put up a link.

    Here's one for starters....
    Some people find out their baby's sex through noninvasive prenatal testing (NIPT). This is a blood test that can detect Down syndrome and a few other chromosomal conditions at 10 weeks of pregnancy or later. It also looks for pieces of the male sex chromosome in the expectant mother's blood to see if she's carrying a boy or a girl.
    Other people find out their baby's sex from a genetic test like CVS or amniocentesis. These tests are usually used to determine whether a baby has a genetic disorder or a chromosomal abnormality like Down syndrome but may carry a slight risk of miscarriage. CVS is typically done between 10 and 13 weeks and amniocentesis between 16 and 20 weeks.
    If you wanted to go beyond non invasive testing, and obtained a tiny piece of genetic material, there is no reason why the sex of the foetus couldn't be determined even earlier. Presumably given the rate of progress in medical microsurgery and DNA analysis, this will soon become possible without damaging the foetus.


  • #1863
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    Rubbish. There are many valid reasons for an abortion, just because don't agree with abortion doesn't make it "an utterly selfish decision".
    There sometimes are valid reasons for an abortion ... but a healthy woman aborting a healthy child is objectivley a selfish decison, taking no account of the harm done to the unborn child.
    Delirium wrote: »
    You've just argued the case for legally compelling people to donate blood/organs. Or is it only the unborn that have a right to life?
    Aborting an unborn child is something like promising somebody the gift of a kidney ... and pulling out of the donation, when the recipient is prepped and operated on, waiting for the kidney to be transferred.
    Delirium wrote: »
    Did you at any point actually read what you just typed? Because show a staggering misunderstanding of bodily autonomy. Explain how someone raping another person 1) is exercising their bodily autonomy and 2) how you see them as not violating the other persons bodily autonomy?
    They would be doing both ... exercising their 'full bodily autonomy' vastly beyond the point where such exercise of bodily autonomy is destroying another persons right to bodily autonomy ... and that is why it is a serious crime.
    Abortion does the exact same ... it is a situation where a woman is exercisng 'full bodily autonomy' vastly beyond the point where such exercise of bodily autonomy is literally destroying her unborn child's right to bodily autonomy .
    Delirium wrote: »
    You could also apply the same statement to people who don't donate blood/organs. Should I be legally compelled to donate a kidney I'm still using to avoid a 'perversion of equality'? If not, why?
    Donating most organs will result in the death of the donor ... and nobody is suggesting that women should be allowed die in order to bring an unborn child to term.
    Equally most pregnancies run smoothly to term with no ill effects whatsoever ... so there is no comparison with organ donation.
    It would be more akin to somebody reusing to donate blood to save somebody who could only be saved by the blood ... but even that analogy would break down, because there would be plenty of voluntary donors to eliminate any need to co-erce other donors.

    Delirium wrote: »
    The proposed scenario is for a limit up to 12 weeks. Has anyone argued for abortion on request at 8 or 9 months?
    The Citizens Assemby recommendations (which haven't gone away) suggested 22 weeks on request ... and no time limit for 'foetal abnormality' ... which could be any abnormality ranging from Cleft Palate upwards.
    Delirium wrote: »
    Also, you realise not every pregnancy will be abort as the tone of your (hyperbolic) posts would suggest?
    I not only realise this ... I have pointed out that the vast majority of women do everything in their power to see through their pregnancy safely to term.
    Delirium wrote: »
    Strange that you're concerned about abortions happening later into pregnancies while defending the current situation that means abortions happen later than if they were available in Ireland. methinks, you're just pulling in extremes to scaremonger.
    Abortion is just as deadly for the unborn child, at whatever stage they occur ... but proposals to make abortion available later into pregnancy for unborn children with disability ... adds insult to injury IMO.

    Delirium wrote: »
    That's circular reasoning. The 8th amendment is to protect the unborn from abortion (including some cases of extremis) so of course it would mean abortion infringes on right to life (as laid out in the 8th).
    I was addressing the claim that the unborn don't have Human Rights.
    They may not enjoy the Human Right to life in other countries ... but in Ireland they do ... and we should ensure that they remain protected by not repealing the 8th.


  • #1864
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    recedite wrote: »
    OK I think these allegations of "lying" have gone on long enough.
    Its time for you guys to "put up or shut up". Put up a link.

    Here's one for starters....
    If you wanted to go beyond non invasive testing, and obtained a tiny piece of genetic material, there is no reason why the sex of the foetus couldn't be determined even earlier. Presumably given the rate of progress in medical microsurgery and DNA analysis, this will soon become possible without damaging the foetus.

    Baby Centre is an American website offering information about American services.
    Those services are not offered here so it’s irrelevant.
    No Irish hospital offers blood tests either privately or publicly before 12 weeks to test for disability or determine gender.
    They simply don’t, with the exception in some cases for amiocites test.
    If you can provide a link to prove that the Irish healthcare system provides such services I’ll stand corrected but I’m confident they do not.

    What American healthcare offers isn’t relevant because this service isn’t available here.


  • #1865
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Please give your source that proves that Irish hospitals offer either public or private blood tests to determine gender from 7 weeks gestation.

    That website is a USA one and as we both know, healthcare is a extremely different and indeed more liberal.

    As I said many Irish hospitals refuse to determine the gender even at 20 weeks due to potential law suits so I’d love to see your proof of Irish hospitals offering this service at 7 weeks.
    This post is ridiculous. Irish hospitals operate under the spirit of the 8th amendment.
    If the protection we now afford to the unborn is removed, then obviously some hospital procedures will change.


  • #1866
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    You can bring a horse to water... :rolleyes:

    There is little point asking me for my understanding of the Committee's recommendations if you haven't read them yourself. Without them, you have no frame of reference, so proper discussion is impossible.

    Let me know when you've read them and then we can discuss.



    Untrue on both counts. From the Oireachtas Committee report:



    In summary, the Assembly's recommendation did include a gestational limit and the Committee's recommendation is that the law shouldn't provide for abortion on the grounds of disability, making it unlikely to be in the final legislation.
    The Citizens Assembly ... 'went over the top' and came up with recommendations so radical that the politicians judged they wouldn't be passed by the electorate ... so they diluted them down in order to get the 8th repealed.

    Of course, if the 8th is repealed ... they then can revisit the proposals of the Citizens Assembly ... and can implement them all ... and more if they want to.


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  • #1867
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Baby Centre is an American website offering information about American services.
    Those services are not offered here so it’s irrelevant.
    No Irish hospital offers blood tests either privately or publicly before 12 weeks to test for disability or determine gender.
    They simply don’t.
    If you can provide a link to prove that the Irish healthcare system provides such services I’ll stand corrected but I’m confident they do not.

    What American healthcare offers isn’t relevant because this service isn’t available here.
    I see ... a routine blood test, used in America and Europe, that can tell the gender of an unborn child at 7 weeks will not be available in Ireland ...you must think we're all absolutely stupid, to accept that one!!!

    Quote:-
    "European doctors now routinely use the tests to help expectant parents whose offspring are at risk for rare gender-linked disorders determine whether they need invasive and costly genetic testing. For example, Duchenne muscular dystrophy affects boys, but if the fetus is not the at-risk sex, such tests are unnecessary. But doctors in the United States generally have not prescribed the tests because they are unregulated and medical labs are not yet federally certified to use them."

    "A simple blood test that can determine a baby’s sex as early as seven weeks into pregnancy is highly accurate if used correctly, a finding that experts say is likely to lead to more widespread use by parents concerned about gender-linked diseases, those who are merely curious and people considering the more ethically controversial step of selecting the sex of their children."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/health/10birth.html


  • #1868
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Shoobs86 wrote: »
    Ok, well other parts of this article read:

    The publication of these statistics after a campaign by the anti-abortion lobby reveals little more than their own vindictiveness. Abortion for foetal anomaly is legal,” she said. “Behind every one of these figures are doctors and nurses who deserve our admiration and support, and a couple who have often lost a much-wanted pregnancy.”

    A Department of Health spokesman confirmed that publication of the detailed abortion data “follows the recent judgment from the High Court”.

    Ground E abortions make up about one per cent
    ... the couples didn't 'lose' a pregancy ... they aborted it ... because they didn't like the disability that their unborn child would have, if they gave birth to them.


  • #1869
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    You only find abortion "troubling"? You don't understand what abortion is. If you did know, you would be fighting might and main to stop it.

    I don't find abortion troubling. What I do find repugnant is people trying to tell pregnant women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. Probably worth noting where sex selective abortion takes place it is typically at the behest of the woman's husband who is trying to preserve his name through the male line. The choice to abort in this case is also one that men seek to take from pregnant women. Does that trouble you?


  • #1870
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    J C wrote: »
    I see ... a routine blood test, used in America, that can tell the gender of an unborn child at 7 weeks will not be available in Ireland ...you must think we're all absolutely stupid, to accept that one!!!

    Well abortion has been available in the USA for circa 45 years already, while Ireland still hasn’t removed the 8th, so I wouldn’t be worried about us following in their footsteps in regards to those tests any time soon at all.
    Look how long it’s taken us to sort out the ridiculous 8th amendment!

    Just more scaremongering and deflecting from yourself.


  • #1871
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Baby Centre is an American website offering information about American services.
    Those services are not offered here so it’s irrelevant.
    No Irish hospital offers blood tests either privately or publicly before 12 weeks to test for disability or determine gender.
    They simply don’t, with the exception in some cases for amiocites test.
    If you can provide a link to prove that the Irish healthcare system provides such services I’ll stand corrected but I’m confident they do not.

    What American healthcare offers isn’t relevant because this service isn’t available here.

    what is being said is not irrelevant as it is the long term that is being discussed rather then the here and now, and there is the potential for such services to be offered in the long term once the 8th is repealed. so it is vital that long term possibilities are discussed, as much as some wish otherwise. everything is up for debate now, as otherwise there won't be the opportunity if the 8th is repealed.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #1872
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    end of the road wrote: »
    actually we do choose for people in relation to some choices they would like to make on a daily basis via the laws of the land, which prevent people from making choices that not only we find troubling, but which bring harm upon others.

    And where we find laws inhumane, anti-egalitarian, and in need of change we do so.


  • #1873
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Well abortion has been available in the USA for circa 45 years already, while Ireland still hasn’t removed the 8th, so I wouldn’t be worried about us following in their footsteps in regards to those tests any time soon at all.
    Look how long it’s taken us to sort out the ridiculous 8th amendment!

    Just more scaremongering and deflecting from yourself.

    incorrect, it's some possibilities based on reality of what may happen long term once the 8th is repealed.
    smacl wrote: »
    And where we find laws inhumane, anti-egalitarian, and in need of change we do so.

    and where the removal of those laws will be even more inhumane, we fight to keep them until such time as we can get a better replacement then the one that is being offered, which does not meet the high standards and expectations that are required for a country like ours.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1874
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    pilly wrote: »
    More lies, amniocentesis can NOT be done before 16 weeks.

    I'm now going to start reporting posts that state obvious lies over and over again. It can not be allowed to go on.
    You can't handle the truth ... a simple blood test can tell if it's a girl at 7 weeks .... thereby giving plenty of time to abort her, before 12 weeks, if a girl (or a boy) isn't what is wanted.

    ... and the test is being used routinely by European doctors ... its the Americans who are holding back on this technology.


    Quote NYT :-
    "European doctors now routinely use the tests to help expectant parents whose offspring are at risk for rare gender-linked disorders determine whether they need invasive and costly genetic testing. For example, Duchenne muscular dystrophy affects boys, but if the fetus is not the at-risk sex, such tests are unnecessary. But doctors in the United States generally have not prescribed the tests because they are unregulated and medical labs are not yet federally certified to use them."

    Please stop accusing people who are telling the truth of being liars ... such un-parliamentary language is banned from all civil debates.


  • #1875
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    J C wrote:
    You can't handle the truth ... a simple blood test can tell if it's a girl at 7 weeks .... thereby giving plenty of time to abort her, before 12 weeks, if a girl (or a boy) isn't what is wanted.


    Is this test freely available in Ireland?


  • #1876
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    J C wrote: »
    The Citizens Assembly ... 'went over the top' and came up with recommendations so radical that the politicians judged they wouldn't be passed by the electorate ... so they diluted them down in order to get the 8th repealed.

    Of course, if the 8th is repealed ... they then can revisit the proposals of the Citizens Assembly ... and can implement them all ... and more if they want to.

    Considering you continued lying about the Assembly's recommendations after your error was pointed out to you, I see no reason to trust your predictions about what will happen to them after repeal.


  • #1877
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    end of the road wrote: »
    what is being said is not irrelevant as it is the long term that is being discussed rather then the here and now, and there is the potential for such services to be offered in the long term once the 8th is repealed. so it is vital that long term possibilities are discussed, as much as some wish otherwise. everything is up for debate now, as otherwise there won't be the opportunity if the 8th is repealed.
    Its not 'long term' ... these tests are currently available and are routinely used by European doctors.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/health/10birth.html


  • #1878
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    You don't understand abortion. If you did, you wouldn't send that post.


  • #1879
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Considering you continued lying about the Assembly's recommendations after your error was pointed out to you, I see no reason to trust your predictions about what will happen to them after repeal.
    Please stand up your scurrulous allegartions right now ... where did I lie about the Citizens Assembly recommendations?

    They're so radical ... it would be almost impossible to exaggerate them, anyway.


  • #1880
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    J C wrote:
    Please stand up your scurrulous allegartions right now ... where did I lie about the Citizens Assembly recommendations?

    J C wrote:
    They're so radical ... it would be almost impossible to exaggerate them.


    What right has an assembly to decide what is right or wrong?


  • #1881
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    smacl wrote: »
    I don't find abortion troubling. What I do find repugnant is people trying to tell pregnant women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. Probably worth noting where sex selective abortion takes place it is typically at the behest of the woman's husband who is trying to preserve his name through the male line. The choice to abort in this case is also one that men seek to take from pregnant women. Does that trouble you?
    It all troubles me deeply ... as it should any right thinking person ... and its just as wrong to selectively abort a boy on the basis of him being somewhat more likely to have genetic issues leading to disability.

    The question is are you only selectively troubled by what is happening in the growing anti-life culture out there?


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  • #1882
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    It's good to see we're back to the but but but arguments. I haven't heard of anyone marrying their dog yet, has anyone else?


  • #1883
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    pilly wrote:
    It's good to see we're back to the but but but arguments. I haven't heard of anyone marrying their dog yet, has anyone else?


    The is no but but. Abortion is wrong, full stop.


  • #1884
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Considering you continued lying about the Assembly's recommendations after your error was pointed out to you, I see no reason to trust your predictions about what will happen to them after repeal.
    Come on, I'm calling you on this, Nu Marvel ... please stand up your unfounded lies about me.


  • #1885
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote:
    The is no but but. Abortion is wrong, full stop.


    Never was a user name more apt.


  • #1886
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    pilly wrote: »
    It's good to see we're back to the but but but arguments. I haven't heard of anyone marrying their dog yet, has anyone else?
    Nobody is arguing this except yourself.
    ... but if somebody suggested that perfectly dogs should be routinely put down because their owners didn't want them anymore, the condemnations for such callous behaviour would (rightly) roll in!!


  • #1887
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    pilly wrote: »
    Is this test freely available in Ireland?
    No, there's not much point in having the test in a country that will not allow the abortion based on the result.

    Your question should be "will this test become freely available if the 8th is repealed". In which case, the answer would be yes.

    So are you going to apologise now, for your previous ignorant distortion of the facts?
    pilly wrote: »
    You can't tell the sex by 12 weeks. You guys really need some biology lessons.
    You're looking at cartoons too long.


  • #1888
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    recedite wrote:
    Your question should be "will this test become freely available if the 8th is repealed". In which case, the answer would be yes.

    recedite wrote:
    No, there's not much point in having the test in a country that will not allow the abortion based on the result.

    recedite wrote:
    So are you going to apologise now, for your previous distortion of the facts?


    Nope. I'm talking about Ireland here, others can talk about other countries all they like, doesn't make a jot of difference.

    Since you're the one looking for links can you please show me one that backs up your emphatic statement that this test will be routinely available in Ireland?


  • #1889
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Do you not see the miracle of conception?


  • #1890
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    J C wrote: »
    Come on, I'm calling you on this, Nu Marvel ... please stand up your unfounded lies about me.
    Come on Nu Marvel ... stand up your allegations of lying.
    ... or withdraw them.


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  • #1891
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    pilly wrote:
    Never was a user name more apt.

    Did you ever hear of irony?


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