WhiteRoses wrote: » Gender and pretty much all disabilities cannot be detected at 12 weeks so your point is moot.
Timberrrrrrrr wrote: » You cannot tell the sex of a foetus at 12 weeks so there you go again telling more lies in a lame attempt to score emotional points.
pilly wrote: » You can't tell the sex by 12 weeks. You guys really need some biology lessons. You're looking at cartoons too long.
WhiteRoses wrote: » Why are you telling lies? Gender cannot be determined at 12 weeks..
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Some people find out their baby's sex through noninvasive prenatal testing (NIPT). This is a blood test that can detect Down syndrome and a few other chromosomal conditions at 10 weeks of pregnancy or later. It also looks for pieces of the male sex chromosome in the expectant mother's blood to see if she's carrying a boy or a girl. Other people find out their baby's sex from a genetic test like CVS or amniocentesis. These tests are usually used to determine whether a baby has a genetic disorder or a chromosomal abnormality like Down syndrome but may carry a slight risk of miscarriage. CVS is typically done between 10 and 13 weeks and amniocentesis between 16 and 20 weeks.
Delirium wrote: » Rubbish. There are many valid reasons for an abortion, just because don't agree with abortion doesn't make it "an utterly selfish decision".
Delirium wrote: » You've just argued the case for legally compelling people to donate blood/organs. Or is it only the unborn that have a right to life?
Delirium wrote: » Did you at any point actually read what you just typed? Because show a staggering misunderstanding of bodily autonomy. Explain how someone raping another person 1) is exercising their bodily autonomy and 2) how you see them as not violating the other persons bodily autonomy?
Delirium wrote: » You could also apply the same statement to people who don't donate blood/organs. Should I be legally compelled to donate a kidney I'm still using to avoid a 'perversion of equality'? If not, why?
Delirium wrote: » The proposed scenario is for a limit up to 12 weeks. Has anyone argued for abortion on request at 8 or 9 months?
Delirium wrote: » Also, you realise not every pregnancy will be abort as the tone of your (hyperbolic) posts would suggest?
Delirium wrote: » Strange that you're concerned about abortions happening later into pregnancies while defending the current situation that means abortions happen later than if they were available in Ireland. methinks, you're just pulling in extremes to scaremonger.
Delirium wrote: » That's circular reasoning. The 8th amendment is to protect the unborn from abortion (including some cases of extremis) so of course it would mean abortion infringes on right to life (as laid out in the 8th).
recedite wrote: » OK I think these allegations of "lying" have gone on long enough. Its time for you guys to "put up or shut up". Put up a link.Here's one for starters.... If you wanted to go beyond non invasive testing, and obtained a tiny piece of genetic material, there is no reason why the sex of the foetus couldn't be determined even earlier. Presumably given the rate of progress in medical microsurgery and DNA analysis, this will soon become possible without damaging the foetus.
WhiteRoses wrote: » Please give your source that proves that Irish hospitals offer either public or private blood tests to determine gender from 7 weeks gestation. That website is a USA one and as we both know, healthcare is a extremely different and indeed more liberal. As I said many Irish hospitals refuse to determine the gender even at 20 weeks due to potential law suits so I’d love to see your proof of Irish hospitals offering this service at 7 weeks.
NuMarvel wrote: » You can bring a horse to water... :rolleyes: There is little point asking me for my understanding of the Committee's recommendations if you haven't read them yourself. Without them, you have no frame of reference, so proper discussion is impossible. Let me know when you've read them and then we can discuss. Untrue on both counts. From the Oireachtas Committee report: In summary, the Assembly's recommendation did include a gestational limit and the Committee's recommendation is that the law shouldn't provide for abortion on the grounds of disability, making it unlikely to be in the final legislation.
WhiteRoses wrote: » Baby Centre is an American website offering information about American services. Those services are not offered here so it’s irrelevant. No Irish hospital offers blood tests either privately or publicly before 12 weeks to test for disability or determine gender. They simply don’t. If you can provide a link to prove that the Irish healthcare system provides such services I’ll stand corrected but I’m confident they do not. What American healthcare offers isn’t relevant because this service isn’t available here.
Shoobs86 wrote: » Ok, well other parts of this article read: The publication of these statistics after a campaign by the anti-abortion lobby reveals little more than their own vindictiveness. Abortion for foetal anomaly is legal,” she said. “Behind every one of these figures are doctors and nurses who deserve our admiration and support, and a couple who have often lost a much-wanted pregnancy.” A Department of Health spokesman confirmed that publication of the detailed abortion data “follows the recent judgment from the High Court”. Ground E abortions make up about one per cent
fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: » You only find abortion "troubling"? You don't understand what abortion is. If you did know, you would be fighting might and main to stop it.
J C wrote: » I see ... a routine blood test, used in America, that can tell the gender of an unborn child at 7 weeks will not be available in Ireland ...you must think we're all absolutely stupid, to accept that one!!!
WhiteRoses wrote: » Baby Centre is an American website offering information about American services. Those services are not offered here so it’s irrelevant. No Irish hospital offers blood tests either privately or publicly before 12 weeks to test for disability or determine gender. They simply don’t, with the exception in some cases for amiocites test. If you can provide a link to prove that the Irish healthcare system provides such services I’ll stand corrected but I’m confident they do not. What American healthcare offers isn’t relevant because this service isn’t available here.
end of the road wrote: » actually we do choose for people in relation to some choices they would like to make on a daily basis via the laws of the land, which prevent people from making choices that not only we find troubling, but which bring harm upon others.
WhiteRoses wrote: » Well abortion has been available in the USA for circa 45 years already, while Ireland still hasn’t removed the 8th, so I wouldn’t be worried about us following in their footsteps in regards to those tests any time soon at all. Look how long it’s taken us to sort out the ridiculous 8th amendment! Just more scaremongering and deflecting from yourself.
smacl wrote: » And where we find laws inhumane, anti-egalitarian, and in need of change we do so.
pilly wrote: » More lies, amniocentesis can NOT be done before 16 weeks. I'm now going to start reporting posts that state obvious lies over and over again. It can not be allowed to go on.
J C wrote: You can't handle the truth ... a simple blood test can tell if it's a girl at 7 weeks .... thereby giving plenty of time to abort her, before 12 weeks, if a girl (or a boy) isn't what is wanted.
J C wrote: » The Citizens Assembly ... 'went over the top' and came up with recommendations so radical that the politicians judged they wouldn't be passed by the electorate ... so they diluted them down in order to get the 8th repealed. Of course, if the 8th is repealed ... they then can revisit the proposals of the Citizens Assembly ... and can implement them all ... and more if they want to.
end of the road wrote: » what is being said is not irrelevant as it is the long term that is being discussed rather then the here and now, and there is the potential for such services to be offered in the long term once the 8th is repealed. so it is vital that long term possibilities are discussed, as much as some wish otherwise. everything is up for debate now, as otherwise there won't be the opportunity if the 8th is repealed.
NuMarvel wrote: » Considering you continued lying about the Assembly's recommendations after your error was pointed out to you, I see no reason to trust your predictions about what will happen to them after repeal.
J C wrote: Please stand up your scurrulous allegartions right now ... where did I lie about the Citizens Assembly recommendations?
J C wrote: They're so radical ... it would be almost impossible to exaggerate them.
smacl wrote: » I don't find abortion troubling. What I do find repugnant is people trying to tell pregnant women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. Probably worth noting where sex selective abortion takes place it is typically at the behest of the woman's husband who is trying to preserve his name through the male line. The choice to abort in this case is also one that men seek to take from pregnant women. Does that trouble you?
pilly wrote: It's good to see we're back to the but but but arguments. I haven't heard of anyone marrying their dog yet, has anyone else?
fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: The is no but but. Abortion is wrong, full stop.
pilly wrote: » It's good to see we're back to the but but but arguments. I haven't heard of anyone marrying their dog yet, has anyone else?
pilly wrote: » Is this test freely available in Ireland?
recedite wrote: Your question should be "will this test become freely available if the 8th is repealed". In which case, the answer would be yes.
recedite wrote: No, there's not much point in having the test in a country that will not allow the abortion based on the result.
recedite wrote: So are you going to apologise now, for your previous distortion of the facts?
J C wrote: » Come on, I'm calling you on this, Nu Marvel ... please stand up your unfounded lies about me.
pilly wrote: Never was a user name more apt.
