Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Bob_Marley wrote: »

But what is your understanding of how 12 week no restriction abortion of unborn children deals with a supposed FFA if it can't be reliably diagnosed at 12 weeks as is now being claimed, and what additional further abortions of unborn children will be permitted after 12 weeks that are not already ?

You can bring a horse to water... :rolleyes:

There is little point asking me for my understanding of the Committee's recommendations if you haven't read them yourself. Without them, you have no frame of reference, so proper discussion is impossible.

Let me know when you've read them and then we can discuss.

J C wrote: »

Having special needs is likely to be a reason to be aborted with no gestational limit, in line with the recommendation of the Citizen's assembly.

Untrue on both counts. From the Oireachtas Committee report:

Foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth
2.32. The Citizens Assembly recommended that termination of pregnancy should be lawful, up to 22 weeks gestation, in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth without gestational limit.

2.33. The Committee, while noting the burden placed on the woman and the family in such situations, does not accept that these are sufficient grounds for termination.

2.34. The Committee therefore does not accept this recommendation of the Citizens Assembly.

2.35. The Committee recommends that the law should not provide for the termination of pregnancy on the ground that the unborn child has a significant foetal abnormality where such abnormality is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth.

2.36. The Committee believes that the State should provide specific resources so that there are social supports for carers and better facilities for people whose children have special needs.

In summary, the Assembly's recommendation did include a gestational limit and the Committee's recommendation is that the law shouldn't provide for abortion on the grounds of disability, making it unlikely to be in the final legislation.

J C wrote: »

Its likely to be a lot worse than that.

Having special needs is likely to be a reason to be aborted with no gestational limit, in line with the recommendation of the Citizen's assembly (and current English abortion law).

Aborting an unborn child for being female, or any other reason (because it's unrestricted abortion) will be allowed up to 12 weeks initially ... but this is likely to be expanded to 22 weeks in line with the Citizens Assembly (and the likely reduction in the English abortion law limit from 24 weeks to 22).

There is something very ironic (and deeply sad) about feminists who campaign for equality for all females ... and then campaign for the right to kill unborn children, including unborn female children. You just couldn't make it up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you !!
Truth is often stranger than fiction.

Why are you telling lies? Gender cannot be determined at 12 weeks. In fact, a lot of hospitals are reluctant to tell the parents the gender even at the 20 week scan (where it CAN be determined) due to previous lawsuits, where they were sued for getting the gender wrong.

I've said this on another thread but I'll say it again because its extremely relevant. Some of the naysers in this campaign are sounding uncannily like the naysayers from the SSM referendum...:

"If we legalise gay marriage, whats to stop the government from allowing people to marry their dog/a tree/the sofa in the future?"

Its just plain and simple ignorant scare mongering. And that's exactly what's happening with this referendum too.
Going on and on about abortions happening due to gender or a cleft palate or at 32 weeks gestation is irrelevant.
We are looking at a 12 week limit here, so absolutely none of those issues are pertinent.
The fact that they are continuously brought up as evidence against repealing shows that the pro-life side don't have a leg to stand on, because all they're doing is deflecting.
Using scare tactics to try to guilt people into voting no by telling half truths is wrong. Its doing nothing but derailing the thread and stifling proper discussion. We need to stick to the facts.

I also think it's important to point out that having an abortion is not, by any means, a pleasant experience. It is not something that I would ever enter into lightly, and I imagine a lot of other women feel the same.

In Ireland there is a tradition of not telling anyone about your pregnancy until after 12 weeks - in case it doesn't "stick". No-one holds a funeral for women when the pregnancy doesn't last past twelve weeks. You don't get maternity leave. You don't get much sympathy either - it's considered something that happens and we get over it.

I don't know anyone who wants to have a particular sex of child so badly that they are willing to go through the turmoil of an abortion to "fix" it. I don't know of any grown, adult person who thinks that if they abort this pregnancy because of the sex, that the next one will be the correct sex. I don't know of any grown, adult person who would abort a pregnancy because of a trivial cosmetic issue.

I DO know women, several women, who were told that the pregnancy was over because there was no longer a heartbeat - but you still have to carry to term and deliver. I know the trauma that this causes.

If it is morally wrong to abort a pregnancy in your opinion, then you simply don't have one. You keep your status with God, you keep your place in Heaven and you pray like crazy for the people you feel have strayed from 100% perfect holiness (but don't we all have sin?). Isn't it also "morally" wrong to become pregnant outside of marriage? Well then, single mothers are being treated exceptionally unfairly.

I have no right to judge someone. No one has the right to Judge anyone - especially not Christians, who are SUPPOSED to follow God's instruction that HE is the only one who can judge anyone.

If the "other options" for women - assuming that the pregnancy won't kill them, and that the pregnancy is going to last full term and result in a live infant - are adoption, then how come there are no babies available to adopt in Ireland? There are plenty of live children who were born into terrifying, disgusting, neglectful situations most likely because there was no option to end the pregnancy. I don't see any Christians campaigning to provide healthcare, safe spaces from abuse, helplines, therapy, food, shelter - anything - to those children that are already born and in this country.

smacl wrote: »

People can and do make many choices we might find troubling, but that doesn't give us the right to choose for them.

actually we do choose for people in relation to some choices they would like to make on a daily basis via the laws of the land, which prevent people from making choices that not only we find troubling, but which bring harm upon others.

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

Don't you see any Christians doing that? How do you know?

No, I don't. I don't see it anywhere.

J C wrote: »

That's why abortions for this condition are done late into the pregnancy ... and the Citizens Assembly recomended no gestational time limit for situation where "in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth" ... which would include cleft palate, if the UK rules on this definition are followed.

... and there will be great presssure to folow them ... on the basis that no woman should have to travel to England for any abortion ... if the 8th is repealed.

Incorrect.

Foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth
2.32. The Citizens Assembly recommended that termination of pregnancy should be lawful, up to 22 weeks gestation, in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

How do you know they are not Christians?

What? I said that I do not see any Christians providing these supports for children.

J C wrote: »

the Citizens Assembly recomended no a gestational time limit of 22 weeks for situation where "in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth".

Fixed your post.

And for proper context, here's what the Committee on the 8th decided on that particular recommendation:

2.34. The Committee therefore does not accept this recommendation of the Citizens Assembly.

2.35. The Committee recommends that the law should not provide for the termination of pregnancy on the ground that the unborn child has a significant foetal abnormality where such abnormality is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth.