Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Ok, well other parts of this article read:

The publication of these statistics after a campaign by the anti-abortion lobby reveals little more than their own vindictiveness. Abortion for foetal anomaly is legal,” she said. “Behind every one of these figures are doctors and nurses who deserve our admiration and support, and a couple who have often lost a much-wanted pregnancy.”

A Department of Health spokesman confirmed that publication of the detailed abortion data “follows the recent judgment from the High Court”.

Ground E abortions make up about one per cent

NuMarvel

Bob_Marley wrote: »

But what is your understanding of how 12 week no restriction abortion of unborn children deals with a supposed FFA if it can't be reliably diagnosed at 12 weeks as is now being claimed, and what additional further abortions of unborn children will be permitted after 12 weeks that are not already ?

You can bring a horse to water... :rolleyes:

There is little point asking me for my understanding of the Committee's recommendations if you haven't read them yourself. Without them, you have no frame of reference, so proper discussion is impossible.

Let me know when you've read them and then we can discuss.

J C wrote: »

Having special needs is likely to be a reason to be aborted with no gestational limit, in line with the recommendation of the Citizen's assembly.

Untrue on both counts. From the Oireachtas Committee report:

Foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth
2.32. The Citizens Assembly recommended that termination of pregnancy should be lawful, up to 22 weeks gestation, in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth without gestational limit.

2.33. The Committee, while noting the burden placed on the woman and the family in such situations, does not accept that these are sufficient grounds for termination.

2.34. The Committee therefore does not accept this recommendation of the Citizens Assembly.

2.35. The Committee recommends that the law should not provide for the termination of pregnancy on the ground that the unborn child has a significant foetal abnormality where such abnormality is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth.

2.36. The Committee believes that the State should provide specific resources so that there are social supports for carers and better facilities for people whose children have special needs.

In summary, the Assembly's recommendation did include a gestational limit and the Committee's recommendation is that the law shouldn't provide for abortion on the grounds of disability, making it unlikely to be in the final legislation.

Peregrinus wrote: »

You can diagnose sex with fetal DNA testing from about seven weeks.

You can diagnose sex through amniocentesis from 8 or 9 weeks. For other reasons, amniocentesis isn't normally done this early, but it certainly can be if a woman requests it.

One of the difficult issues that you have to face, if you support a right to choose, is that a woman might make a choice for a reason that you don't like, such as sex-selective abortion. The logic of a right-to-choose position is that she has a right to make this choice; her reasons for choosing an abortion don't have to pass muster with a man in a cassock, or a man in a white coat, or a pseudonymous poster on a an internet discussion board.

If we find sex-selective abortion troubling, I don't think we can wave away the problem by pretending that such a choice cannot be made in practice; it can.

More lies, amniocentesis can NOT be done before 16 weeks.

I'm now going to start reporting posts that state obvious lies over and over again. It can not be allowed to go on.

SusieBlue

J C wrote: »

Its likely to be a lot worse than that.

Having special needs is likely to be a reason to be aborted with no gestational limit, in line with the recommendation of the Citizen's assembly (and current English abortion law).

Aborting an unborn child for being female, or any other reason (because it's unrestricted abortion) will be allowed up to 12 weeks initially ... but this is likely to be expanded to 22 weeks in line with the Citizens Assembly (and the likely reduction in the English abortion law limit from 24 weeks to 22).

There is something very ironic (and deeply sad) about feminists who campaign for equality for all females ... and then campaign for the right to kill unborn children, including unborn female children. You just couldn't make it up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you !!
Truth is often stranger than fiction.

Why are you telling lies? Gender cannot be determined at 12 weeks. In fact, a lot of hospitals are reluctant to tell the parents the gender even at the 20 week scan (where it CAN be determined) due to previous lawsuits, where they were sued for getting the gender wrong.

I've said this on another thread but I'll say it again because its extremely relevant. Some of the naysers in this campaign are sounding uncannily like the naysayers from the SSM referendum...:

"If we legalise gay marriage, whats to stop the government from allowing people to marry their dog/a tree/the sofa in the future?"

Its just plain and simple ignorant scare mongering. And that's exactly what's happening with this referendum too.
Going on and on about abortions happening due to gender or a cleft palate or at 32 weeks gestation is irrelevant.
We are looking at a 12 week limit here, so absolutely none of those issues are pertinent.
The fact that they are continuously brought up as evidence against repealing shows that the pro-life side don't have a leg to stand on, because all they're doing is deflecting.
Using scare tactics to try to guilt people into voting no by telling half truths is wrong. Its doing nothing but derailing the thread and stifling proper discussion. We need to stick to the facts.

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Why are you telling lies? Gender cannot be determined at 12 weeks. In fact, a lot of hospitals are reluctant to tell the parents the gender even at the 20 week scan (where it CAN be determined) due to previous lawsuits, where they were sued for getting the gender wrong.

I've said this on another thread but I'll say it again because its extremely relevant. Some of the naysers in this campaign are sounding uncannily like the naysayers from the SSM referendum...:

"If we legalise gay marriage, whats to stop the government from allowing people to marry their dog/a tree/the sofa in the future?"

Its just plain and simple ignorant scare mongering. And that's exactly what's happening with this referendum too.
Going on and on about abortions happening due to gender or a cleft palate or at 32 weeks gestation is irrelevant.
We are looking at a 12 week limit here, so absolutely none of those issues are pertinent.
The fact that they are continuously brought up as evidence against repealing shows that the pro-life side don't have a leg to stand on, because all they're doing is deflecting.
Using scare tactics to try to guilt people into voting no by telling half truths is wrong. Its doing nothing but derailing the thread and stifling proper discussion. We need to stick to the facts.

the pro-life side have a massive leg to stand on. the pro-life side have given nothing but facts and are thinking of the long term rather then the short term.

end of the road wrote: »

the pro-life side have a massive leg to stand on. the pro-life side have given nothing but facts and are thinking of the long term rather then the short term.

Sex can be determined before 12 weeks - lie
Disabilities can be determined before 12 weeks - lie

Please post proof that these are not lies before telling another lie.

end of the road wrote: »

the pro-life side have a massive leg to stand on. the pro-life side have given nothing but facts and are thinking of the long term rather then the short term.

As a general statement, that's not even close to true.

Abortion is portrayed as dangerous to women, it isn't.

Women who have abortion experience regret and mental health issues. Not the case according to studies.

Abortion is portrayed as something that only women without children have. Some studies to have concluded that it is more often women with children who have abortions as they don't want more children.

pilly wrote: »

More lies, amniocentesis can NOT be done before 16 weeks.

I'm now going to start reporting posts that state obvious lies over and over again. It can not be allowed to go on.

To be fair, not everyone would know that. I certainly didn't.

From NHS website after a quick google for those that are curious:

Amniocentesis is usually carried out between the 15th and 20th weeks of pregnancy but may be later if necessary.

It can be performed earlier, but this may increase the risk of complications of amniocentesis and is usually avoided.

Delirium wrote: »

To be fair, not everyone would know that. I certainly didn't.

From NHS website after a quick google for those that are curious:

I'm not really concerned with people's ignorance.

Are you trying to tell me that anyone of adult age doesn't know you can't determine the sex of a foetus before 12 weeks?

I don't believe it.

pilly wrote: »

I'm not really concerned with people's ignorance.

Are you trying to tell me that anyone of adult age doesn't know you can't determine the sex of a foetus before 12 weeks?

I don't believe it.

I just said I didn't know that. And I've not seen anything to suggest it can't be done.

A poster said that it could be done via a medical procedure before 12 weeks. From what I've read, it's not done due to problems that can occur due to doing the test before 15 weeks.

So the test can be done, but it would be endangering the unborn.

Delirium wrote:

A poster said that it could be done via a medical procedure before 12 weeks. From what I've read, it's not done due to problems that can occur due to doing the test before 15 weeks.

So you believe the poster? That just proves my point really about how dangerous these lies are.

pilly wrote: »

So you believe the poster? That just proves my point really about how dangerous these lies are.

No I don't.

As I said, I didn't know it was true or false until I went off googling it.

That's why I post the quoted text, to show that the poster was wrong as common practise is 15 weeks minimum.

.......

This post has been deleted.

I also think it's important to point out that having an abortion is not, by any means, a pleasant experience. It is not something that I would ever enter into lightly, and I imagine a lot of other women feel the same.

In Ireland there is a tradition of not telling anyone about your pregnancy until after 12 weeks - in case it doesn't "stick". No-one holds a funeral for women when the pregnancy doesn't last past twelve weeks. You don't get maternity leave. You don't get much sympathy either - it's considered something that happens and we get over it.

I don't know anyone who wants to have a particular sex of child so badly that they are willing to go through the turmoil of an abortion to "fix" it. I don't know of any grown, adult person who thinks that if they abort this pregnancy because of the sex, that the next one will be the correct sex. I don't know of any grown, adult person who would abort a pregnancy because of a trivial cosmetic issue.

I DO know women, several women, who were told that the pregnancy was over because there was no longer a heartbeat - but you still have to carry to term and deliver. I know the trauma that this causes.

If it is morally wrong to abort a pregnancy in your opinion, then you simply don't have one. You keep your status with God, you keep your place in Heaven and you pray like crazy for the people you feel have strayed from 100% perfect holiness (but don't we all have sin?). Isn't it also "morally" wrong to become pregnant outside of marriage? Well then, single mothers are being treated exceptionally unfairly.

I have no right to judge someone. No one has the right to Judge anyone - especially not Christians, who are SUPPOSED to follow God's instruction that HE is the only one who can judge anyone.

If the "other options" for women - assuming that the pregnancy won't kill them, and that the pregnancy is going to last full term and result in a live infant - are adoption, then how come there are no babies available to adopt in Ireland? There are plenty of live children who were born into terrifying, disgusting, neglectful situations most likely because there was no option to end the pregnancy. I don't see any Christians campaigning to provide healthcare, safe spaces from abuse, helplines, therapy, food, shelter - anything - to those children that are already born and in this country.

Shoobs86 wrote:

If the "other options" for women - assuming that the pregnancy won't kill them, and that the pregnancy is going to last full term and result in a live infant - are adoption, then how come there are no babies available to adopt in Ireland? There are plenty of live children who were born into terrifying, disgusting, neglectful situations most likely because there was no option to end the pregnancy. I don't see any Christians campaigning to provide healthcare, safe spaces from abuse, helplines, therapy, food, shelter - anything - to those children that are already born and in this country.

Don't you see any Christians doing that? How do you know?

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

You can diagnose sex with fetal DNA testing from about seven weeks.

You can diagnose sex through amniocentesis from 8 or 9 weeks. For other reasons, amniocentesis isn't normally done this early, but it certainly can be if a woman requests it.

One of the difficult issues that you have to face, if you support a right to choose, is that a woman might make a choice for a reason that you don't like, such as sex-selective abortion. The logic of a right-to-choose position is that she has a right to make this choice; her reasons for choosing an abortion don't have to pass muster with a man in a cassock, or a man in a white coat, or a pseudonymous poster on a an internet discussion board.

If we find sex-selective abortion troubling, I don't think we can wave away the problem by pretending that such a choice cannot be made in practice; it can.

I agree entirely that once the woman has the right to choose, we have no business questioning that choice. That said, do you seriously believe that sex selective abortion would ever be an issue in this country. The only place I'm aware of where this became a major issue was in China during the single child policy, though AFAIK this extended to female infantacide as well as abortion. From what I understand, sex selective abortion tends to happen in poorer male dominated societies where the family name is carried through the male child.

People can and do make many choices we might find troubling, but that doesn't give us the right to choose for them.

smacl wrote:

People can and do make many choices we might find troubling, but that doesn't give us the right to choose for them.

You only find abortion "troubling"? You don't understand what abortion is. If you did know, you would be fighting might and main to stop it.

end of the road

smacl wrote: »

People can and do make many choices we might find troubling, but that doesn't give us the right to choose for them.

actually we do choose for people in relation to some choices they would like to make on a daily basis via the laws of the land, which prevent people from making choices that not only we find troubling, but which bring harm upon others.

end of the road wrote:

actually we do choose for people in relation to some choices they would like to make on a daily basis via the laws of the land, which prevent people from making choices that not only we find troubling, but which bring harm upon others.

And of course, abortion brings grievous harm, indeed death, to the unborn child.

J C

pilly wrote: »

You can't tell the sex by 12 weeks. You guys really need some biology lessons.

You're looking at cartoons too long.

Quote:-
"Parents dying to know the sex of their baby may no longer have to hold their breath until halfway through a pregnancy. A blood test can reveal a baby’s sex as early as seven weeks into a pregnancy, Reuters reports—which is earlier than many doctors will see patients for an initial prenatal visit."

"http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-and-tell/desiree-parentingcom/moms-can-find-out-babys-sex-7-weeks

... so plenty of time to abort, by 12 weeks ... if its a girl !!!

J C

Shoobs86 wrote: »

How, can I ask, could you know that a fetus has a cleft palate at 12 weeks, when it does not have a palate? Again, try to leave the emotional, irrational arguements out of this.

That's why abortions for this condition are done late into the pregnancy ... and the Citizens Assembly recomended no gestational time limit for situation where "in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth" ... which would include cleft palate, if the UK rules on this definition are followed.

... and there will be great presssure to folow them ... on the basis that no woman should have to travel to England for any abortion ... if the 8th is repealed.

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

Don't you see any Christians doing that? How do you know?

No, I don't. I don't see it anywhere.

Shoobs86 wrote:

No, I don't. I don't see it anywhere.

How do you know they are not Christians?

J C wrote: »

That's why abortions for this condition are done late into the pregnancy ... and the Citizens Assembly recomended no gestational time limit for situation where "in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth" ... which would include cleft palate, if the UK rules on this definition are followed.

... and there will be great presssure to folow them ... on the basis that no woman should have to travel to England for any abortion ... if the 8th is repealed.

Incorrect.

Foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth
2.32. The Citizens Assembly recommended that termination of pregnancy should be lawful, up to 22 weeks gestation, in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth

end of the road

Shoobs86 wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't see it anywhere.

one not seeing things doesn't mean they don't happen. i'd bet there are christians campaigning for better supports among other issues. in fact i'm sure of it, even though i won't know their names personally.

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

How do you know they are not Christians?

What? I said that I do not see any Christians providing these supports for children.

I keep asking you how do you know? Would you know a Christian by looking at him?

NuMarvel

J C wrote: »

the Citizens Assembly recomended no a gestational time limit of 22 weeks for situation where "in cases of foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth".

Fixed your post.

And for proper context, here's what the Committee on the 8th decided on that particular recommendation:

2.34. The Committee therefore does not accept this recommendation of the Citizens Assembly.

2.35. The Committee recommends that the law should not provide for the termination of pregnancy on the ground that the unborn child has a significant foetal abnormality where such abnormality is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth.

SusieBlue

J C wrote: »

Quote:-
"Parents dying to know the sex of their baby may no longer have to hold their breath until halfway through a pregnancy. A blood test can reveal a baby’s sex as early as seven weeks into a pregnancy, Reuters reports—which is earlier than many doctors will see patients for an initial prenatal visit."

"http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-and-tell/desiree-parentingcom/moms-can-find-out-babys-sex-7-weeks

... so plenty of time to abort, by 12 weeks ... if its a girl !!!

Please give your source that proves that Irish hospitals offer either public or private blood tests to determine gender from 7 weeks gestation.

That website is a USA one and as we both know, healthcare is a extremely different and indeed more liberal.

As I said many Irish hospitals refuse to determine the gender even at 20 weeks due to potential law suits so I’d love to see your proof of Irish hospitals offering this service at 7 weeks.