The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Leroy42 · 20-01-2018 10:05AM

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

He comes to judge the living and the dead. The dead will be wakened. He allows us time up to the very end to avail of His unfathomable mercy. But then comes the Judgment.

So those that have died previously have not gone to heaven? They are in some sort of limbo?

Are they aware of this? It opens up so many questions. Why bother praying for their souls when they aren't being judged?
Are they still aware that judgement is coming, knowing they are in the waiting room surely tips them off?
Is Hitler and the Pope John Paul II in the same place until this judgement day?
Do babies who die pre childbirth go there or straight to heaven (surely there is nothing to judge?) and what about the mother, wouldn't she question where the baby is?
Or are they unaware and basically stuck in place? Then how can they change without being able to think?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 02:54PM

Leroy42 wrote:

Are they aware of this? It opens up so many questions. Why bother praying for their souls when they aren't being judged? Are they still aware that judgement is coming, knowing they are in the waiting room surely tips them off? Is Hitler and the Pope John Paul II in the same place until this judgement day? Do babies who die pre childbirth go there or straight to heaven (surely there is nothing to judge?) and what about the mother, wouldn't she question where the baby is? Or are they unaware and basically stuck in place? Then how can they change without being able to think?

Leroy42 wrote:

So those that have died previously have not gone to heaven? They are in some sort of limbo?

Why do you talk so much crap?

Timberrrrrrrr · 20-01-2018 04:17PM

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

Why do you talk so much crap?

:pac: Irony overload

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 04:24PM

Why don't you think, for a change? Honest to God, you're not worth bothering about.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 04:36PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

You're the gift that keeps on giving.

Don't worry lads, I have warned you several times. All I get back is a sneer. So be it.

Leroy42 · 20-01-2018 05:49PM

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

Why do you talk so much crap?

Do you have answers? Have you even tried to find answers that allow you to hold a consistent position.

It seems that you think only god can judge but he won't do it until Jesus returns. I simply asked the natural questions that flow from such an opinion

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 06:15PM

Leroy42 wrote:

It seems that you think only god can judge but he won't do it until Jesus returns. I simply asked the natural questions that flow from such an opinion

I have said Christ is full of mercy for the repentent sinner. But when He returns, He comes as merciful Judge. He must judge, to allot fairness to all including those destined for hell.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 06:20PM

Hell is not a temporary situation It is a place of unending torture. Do you understand that? Torture forever for eternity.
Even a total fool will not choose that.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 06:27PM

If you love God you enter His Kingdom of Everlasting Joy.
If you hate God you enter the place of everlasting hate.

Leroy42 · 21-01-2018 10:45AM

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

I have said Christ is full of mercy for the repentent sinner. But when He returns, He comes as merciful Judge. He must judge, to allot fairness to all including those destined for hell.

And I never questioned that. I asked whether those that have already died have been judged or have to wait until this second coming. And why?

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

Hell is not a temporary situation It is a place of unending torture. Do you understand that? Torture forever for eternity.
Even a total fool will not choose that.

Didn't Satan reject God, and he knew him. It would seem extreme of God to denounce those that hadn't met him to hell when even those that know him reject him.

Have you questioned why Satan would reject God?

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

If you love God you enter His Kingdom of Everlasting Joy.
If you hate God you enter the place of everlasting hate.

So Gods answer to hate is more hate? And based on the constant threats surely it is more fear than love.

You are free to post whatever you wish, but others are free to question the basis for your statements. So far you have provided nothing to back up any of your claims so simply telling us we don't understand doesn't help your position.

Delirium · 21-01-2018 12:04PM

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

Why do you talk so much crap?

MOD NOTE

Carded for ignoring previous moderator warning about the content of your post.

Please raise the standard of your posts to avoid further moderation.

Thanks for your attention.

pauldla · 22-01-2018 03:38AM

lw8ey69ntifmph wrote: »

When Christ returns He comes as Judge.

We return now to the conversation....

Achasanai · 05-02-2018 10:21PM

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I couldn't find a reference when doing searches or going through the thread (I may have missed something though). It's specifically to do with the immediate (and long-term) aftermath of the flood.

So, we have two of each animal being saved. As an example, what is the creationist understanding for how we have marsupials only located in Australia? From an evolutionist's point of view, the understanding would be that they developed over a significant period of time to adapt to their habitat. But from a creationist's point of view, did they leave the ark and make a beeline for Australia?

I'd have similar questions about certain plants that can't survive prolonged periods of saturation (either in their 'adult' state or as seeds). Were these introduced after the flood?

J C · 05-02-2018 11:04PM

Achasanai wrote: »

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I couldn't find a reference when doing searches or going through the thread (I may have missed something though). It's specifically to do with the immediate (and long-term) aftermath of the flood.

So, we have two of each animal being saved. As an example, what is the creationist understanding for how we have marsupials only located in Australia? From an evolutionist's point of view, the understanding would be that they developed over a significant period of time to adapt to their habitat. But from a creationist's point of view, did they leave the ark and make a beeline for Australia?

I'd have similar questions about certain plants that can't survive prolonged periods of saturation (either in their 'adult' state or as seeds). Were these introduced after the flood?

The Creationist explantion for marsupials being only located in Australia ... is that they're not ... they're also found in the Americas.

Quote:-
"The American marsupials are now assigned to two families, the Didelphidae (the opossums), Order Didelphimorphia, which occur in both North and South America,and the Caenolestidae (the shrew opossums), Order Paucituberculata, found only in South America. We have some specimens of the family Didelphidae."

The explanation is that marsupials spread out after the Flood to all continents ... but with competion wiping them out in Eurasia and Africa ... they are now only found in Australia and the Americas.

Vegetation would have survived the flood as seeds and on floating vegetation mats that would have resulted from the mass up-rooting of plant life by the Flood.

Professor Moriarty · 06-02-2018 12:06AM

J C wrote: »

The Creationist explantion for marsupials being only located in Australia ... is that they're not ... they're also found in the Americas.

Quote:-
"The American marsupials are now assigned to two families, the Didelphidae (the opossums), Order Didelphimorphia, which occur in both North and South America,and the Caenolestidae (the shrew opossums), Order Paucituberculata, found only in South America. We have some specimens of the family Didelphidae."

The explanation is that marsupials spread out after the Flood to all continents ... but with competion wiping them out in Eurasia and Africa ... they are now only found in Australia and the Americas.

Vegetation would have survived the flood as seeds and on floating vegetation mats that would have resulted from the mass up-rooting of plant life by the Flood.

When did Pangaea break up into seven continents?

Michael OBrien · 06-02-2018 11:33AM

J C wrote: »

The Creationist explantion for marsupials being only located in Australia ... is that they're not ... they're also found in the Americas.

Quote:-
"The American marsupials are now assigned to two families, the Didelphidae (the opossums), Order Didelphimorphia, which occur in both North and South America,and the Caenolestidae (the shrew opossums), Order Paucituberculata, found only in South America. We have some specimens of the family Didelphidae."

The explanation is that marsupials spread out after the Flood to all continents ... but with competion wiping them out in Eurasia and Africa ... they are now only found in Australia and the Americas.

Vegetation would have survived the flood as seeds and on floating vegetation mats that would have resulted from the mass up-rooting of plant life by the Flood.

Just in case anyone actually cares what science actually shows about marsupial evolution and migration. Here is a link:
http://www.nhc.ed.ac.uk/index.php?page=493.168.256
So to make it clear, they evolved outside of Australia and eventually their decendents migrated there and massively diversified (similar to the finches in galapagos islands.)

Achasanai · 06-02-2018 10:11PM

J C wrote: »

The Creationist explantion for marsupials being only located in Australia ... is that they're not ... they're also found in the Americas.

Quote:-
"The American marsupials are now assigned to two families, the Didelphidae (the opossums), Order Didelphimorphia, which occur in both North and South America,and the Caenolestidae (the shrew opossums), Order Paucituberculata, found only in South America. We have some specimens of the family Didelphidae."

The explanation is that marsupials spread out after the Flood to all continents ... but with competion wiping them out in Eurasia and Africa ... they are now only found in Australia and the Americas.

Vegetation would have survived the flood as seeds and on floating vegetation mats that would have resulted from the mass up-rooting of plant life by the Flood.

The question of competition wiping out the non-Australian (and American) marsupials is interesting. Would this competition not have been increased in the immediate aftermath of vacating the Ark?

Which makes me ask, what were the carnivores on the Ark eating for the time on the Ark and the immediate aftermath. I'm assuming there were no cows (or, indeed, any other animals) eaten by anything for around 2/3 years after the Ark (to allow at least one next-generation of animals to breed). Were animals able to go for longer periods without food back then? I'm guessing this would include herbivores too, as those animals relying on vegetation from larger types of trees would be waiting decades before they could feed. Even smaller animals would have to wait for germination and then a growth period.

Surely not all seeds can survive such a long period underwater? I'm guessing those that can't do this, survived on the floating vegetation mats. Does this include succulent plants?

J C · 06-02-2018 10:22PM

Achasanai wrote: »

The question of competition wiping out the non-Australian (and American) marsupials is interesting. Would this competition not have been increased in the immediate aftermath of vacating the Ark?

Which makes me ask, what were the carnivores on the Ark eating for the time on the Ark and the immediate aftermath. I'm assuming there were no cows (or, indeed, any other animals) eaten by anything for around 2/3 years after the Ark (to allow at least one next-generation of animals to breed). Were animals able to go for longer periods without food back then? I'm guessing this would include herbivores too, as those animals relying on vegetation from larger types of trees would be waiting decades before they could feed. Even smaller animals would have to wait for germination and then a growth period.

Surely not all seeds can survive such a long period underwater? I'm guessing those that can't do this, survived on the floating vegetation mats. Does this include succulent plants?

Even today, animals and Humans are very rescilient in the aftermath of large-scale natural disasters ... and all carnivores are somewhat facultive ... and in the immediate aftermath of the Flood there would be plenty of carrion (killed by the Flood) upon which to feed.

Achasanai · 06-02-2018 11:05PM

J C wrote: »

Even today, animals and Humans are very rescilient in the aftermath of large-scale natural disasters ... and all carnivores are somewhat facultive ... and in the immediate aftermath of the Flood there would be plenty of carrion (killed by the Flood) upon which to feed.

There's facultive and there's feeding on carrion that's been submerged in water for, what, 9 months? That sounds less than plausible.

And that's just the meat eaters. I still don't understand how herbivores feeding off large plants and trees were expected to survive years without substantial food. Now, I know you mentioned floating vegetation mats, but surely they couldn't hold large trees? Even smaller animals would have to wait a good few months after the waters receded before they could eat even basic vegetation.

And the seeds surviving being submerged for 9 months (or however long it was).

Nekarsulm · 06-02-2018 11:08PM

It's not like the entire world was under water, just an extended area in the middle East.
Animals would repopulate the stricken area quite quickly.

J C · 06-02-2018 11:39PM

Michael OBrien wrote: »

Just in case anyone actually cares what science actually shows about marsupial evolution and migration. Here is a link:
http://www.nhc.ed.ac.uk/index.php?page=493.168.256
So to make it clear, they evolved outside of Australia and eventually their decendents migrated there and massively diversified (similar to the finches in galapagos islands.)

They originated off the Ark in the Middle East ... migrated to Australia ... and massively diversified there,

J C · 07-02-2018 12:01AM

Achasanai wrote: »

There's facultive and there's feeding on carrion that's been submerged in water for, what, 9 months? That sounds less than plausible.

... it would have been frozen as the land elevated out of the water with stranded dead animals on it. The climate which rapidly emerged after the Flood was a 'nuclear winter' scenaro caused by all of the dust in the atmosphere. It was we call the Ice Age in the upper northern hemisphere ... some of the (frozen) carrion from the Flood still survives and is reputedly edible !!!:)
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-frozen-mammoths-of-Siberia-still-edible

Achasanai wrote: »

And that's just the meat eaters. I still don't understand how herbivores feeding off large plants and trees were expected to survive years without substantial food. Now, I know you mentioned floating vegetation mats, but surely they couldn't hold large trees?

They could of course ... but new vegetation would typically be grasses and other small broadleaf plants that would start germinating and growing immediately when the waters started receeding.

Achasanai wrote: »

Even smaller animals would have to wait a good few months after the waters receded before they could eat even basic vegetation.

Grasses germinate and grow in a matter of days.
Quote:-
"In a week, grass may grow 2-6 inches (depending on temperature, humidity, time of year, etc.). So do the math - that works out to about a 1/25 of an inch/hour."

It could even be possible that Noah too samples of critical crop seeds on-board the Ark and sowed them as soon as the water receeded locally near the Ark ... to kick-start the process.

Achasanai wrote: »

And the seeds surviving being submerged for 9 months (or however long it was).

Some weren't submerged at all ... and would have germinated on floating vegetation mats created by the Flood.

Professor Moriarty · 07-02-2018 12:48AM

J C wrote: »

... it would have been frozen as the land elevated out of the water with stranded dead animals on it. The climate which rapidly emerged after the Flood was a 'nuclear winter' scenaro caused by all of the dust in the atmosphere. It was we call the Ice Age in the upper northern hemisphere ... some of the (frozen) carrion from the Flood still survives and is reputedly edible !!!:)
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-frozen-mammoths-of-Siberia-still-edible

They could of course ... but new vegetation would typically be grasses and other small broadleaf plants that would start germinating and growing immediately when the waters started receeding.

Grasses germinate and grow in a matter of days.
Quote:-
"In a week, grass may grow 2-6 inches (depending on temperature, humidity, time of year, etc.). So do the math - that works out to about a 1/25 of an inch/hour."

It could even be possible that Noah too samples of critical crop seeds on-board the Ark and sowed them as soon as the water receeded locally near the Ark ... to kick-start the process.

Some weren't submerged at all ... and would have germinated on floating vegetation mats created by the Flood.

When did all of this happen?

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-02-2018 12:54AM

J C wrote: »

... it would have been frozen as the land elevated out of the water with stranded dead animals on it. The climate which rapidly emerged after the Flood was a 'nuclear winter' scenaro caused by all of the dust in the atmosphere. It was we call the Ice Age in the upper northern hemisphere ... some of the (frozen) carrion from the Flood still survives and is reputedly edible !!!:)
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-frozen-mammoths-of-Siberia-still-edible

They could of course ... but new vegetation would typically be grasses and other small broadleaf plants that would start germinating and growing immediately when the waters started receeding.

Grasses germinate and grow in a matter of days.
Quote:-
"In a week, grass may grow 2-6 inches (depending on temperature, humidity, time of year, etc.). So do the math - that works out to about a 1/25 of an inch/hour."

It could even be possible that Noah too samples of critical crop seeds on-board the Ark and sowed them as soon as the water receeded locally near the Ark ... to kick-start the process.

Some weren't submerged at all ... and would have germinated on floating vegetation mats created by the Flood.

So aftet the flood, in your own words.... we had a "nuclear winter scenario" where grass grew in a matter of days?

Seriously

Read that back to yourself and then ask why no one takes creationism seriously :rolleyes:

J C · 07-02-2018 01:03AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

When did all of this happen?

Not very long ago ... the carcass was so fresh that blood flowed out when it was moved after discovery.
https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-uncover-frozen-mammoth-blood-flows-out/

... and there are plans to clone the Mammoth because the DNA is so well preserved.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/16/woolly-mammoth-resurrection-scientists

J C · 07-02-2018 01:05AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So aftet the flood, in your own words.... we had a "nuclear winter scenario" where grass grew in a matter of days?

Seriously

Read that back to yourself and then ask why no one takes creationism seriously :rolleyes:

It was something like modern climate change ... where localised extremes of both warmth ... and cold were experienced.

Professor Moriarty · 07-02-2018 01:06AM

J C wrote: »

Not very long ago ... the carcass was so fresh that blood flowed out when it was moved after discovery.
https://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-uncover-frozen-mammoth-blood-flows-out/

... and there are plans to clone the Mammoth because the DNA is so well preserved.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/16/woolly-mammoth-resurrection-scientists

So the Flood occurred when that mammoth died?

Leroy42 · 07-02-2018 11:31AM

J C wrote: »

... it would have been frozen as the land elevated out of the water with stranded dead animals on it. The climate which rapidly emerged after the Flood was a 'nuclear winter' scenaro caused by all of the dust in the atmosphere. It was we call the Ice Age in the upper northern hemisphere ... some of the (frozen) carrion from the Flood still survives and is reputedly edible !!!:)
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-frozen-mammoths-of-Siberia-still-edible

They could of course ... but new vegetation would typically be grasses and other small broadleaf plants that would start germinating and growing immediately when the waters started receeding.

Grasses germinate and grow in a matter of days.
Quote:-
"In a week, grass may grow 2-6 inches (depending on temperature, humidity, time of year, etc.). So do the math - that works out to about a 1/25 of an inch/hour."

It could even be possible that Noah too samples of critical crop seeds on-board the Ark and sowed them as soon as the water receeded locally near the Ark ... to kick-start the process.

Some weren't submerged at all ... and would have germinated on floating vegetation mats created by the Flood.

Woah there JC, there is quite a lot in that post.

Nuclear winter, what evidence do we have of that?
Caused by dust in the air? What dust? What type of dust? How did it get into the air (surely it would have been kept down with all the rain?)
Only the Northern hemisphere, why not on the southern? That was the epicentre of the flood after all?
Stranded dead animals? Now, you do know how decomposition works don't you. Are you now claiming that all the dead animals simply maintained a fresh state during the year long flood so as to be available to eat?
What is the usual timeline for growth after an extended flood, given that there would be a lack of creatures and other plants with which to help recreate the plants through pollination a etc. Do you have any evidence of how quickly land can regenerate after being submerged for a year? And why would animals travel if there was no food in other places since the only seeds etc were on Noahs boat and as such they would only move to get more food.
Floating vegetation mats caused by the flood? So technically animals could have survived on these mats? So God plan to kill everything had a pretty major flaw in it. And how likely is it that people wouldn't have taken refuge on this mats and thus survived by eating the seeds etc. Thats a pretty big hole in your story.

Michael OBrien · 07-02-2018 12:15PM

J C wrote: »

They originated off the Ark in the Middle East ... migrated to Australia ... and massively diversified there,

Not even remotely possible. We are talking millions of years before humans existed. The continent of Australia had to be isolated so that the diversification worked ONLY in Australia. The diversification lead to speciation events.

robinph · 07-02-2018 12:21PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Floating vegetation mats caused by the flood? So technically animals could have survived on these mats? So God plan to kill everything had a pretty major flaw in it. And how likely is it that people wouldn't have taken refuge on this mats and thus survived by eating the seeds etc.

Could nobody else build boats, or already have their own boat for fishing/ trade?
How quick did the water level rise, in that time surely people would have cobbled together something to float on?

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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