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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #1622
    Shoobs86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Shoobs86


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    There is no situation where you are allowed to kill the unborn. In the case of a mother's life, would she not sacrifice her life for the sake of her born child? Of course she would. It's the same in the case of the unborn child. After all, when she dies, she has to stand before the Son of Man, and give an account of her actions.

    I would not sacrifice myself for an unborn fetus. I simply would not.

    And I am terrified to think that this mentality still exists in this country.

    I am not here to breed the next generation - how dare you

    If God can forgive a murderer, an adulterer, a sinner as long as they repent then how dare you say that any woman whose life was saved by this medical procedure must explain herself to God. How dare you.


  • #1623
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Shoobs86 wrote:
    This is completely irrational. Where are you coming up with "white apes"? What has that got to do with anything in this thread?

    Shoobs86 wrote:
    This is why non-Christian people think that we are all nuts - you must be logical in your responses!


    Look lads, it's all a mystery, and let's stop arguing among ourselves.


  • #1624
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne


    Shoobs86 wrote: »
    I think that this is the incorrect way to view the situation. As a Christian, yes, I uphold the moral and biblical law of thou shalt not kill. And therefore, I will not have an abortion by choice. However, I also currently run the risk of being killed by doctors during my pregnancy simply because there is no room in the law for them to terminate a pregnancy if I am at risk. Yes, the wording says it's ok if I am at risk - but we have seen evidence of doctors unwilling to do anything because they are afraid of being sued. I, personally, am already scared by this.

    As a Christian I also have to be honest with myself and realise that I have never walked in another's shoes; I cannot, and have no right to, interfere with someone else's choice - isn't that why God gave us Free Will? To sin, to repent, to be forgiven.

    I don't believe that voting "No" in this referendum will cease abortion in this country. I also don't believe your position that amending the 8th Amendment will mean that there is a murder free-for-all - be sensible in your arguements, this is NOT an approval for murder in general. It is approval for the decriminalisation of a medical procedure to end a pregnancy before the 12 week mark. This procedure happens every day in all countries - this referendum will not stop it.

    I also have to point out, as the parent of a Down Syndrome child, that the testing for Down Syndrome cannot be done before 12 weeks, and therefore the risk of "abortion due to disability" is removed by this time limit.

    When I weigh this all up morally, I cannot in good faith believe that I have the "high ground" above other people when I am not God - God has given people Free Will and it is not my place to judge under any circumstance. I can keep MY morals intact by not having an abortion, and by supporting proper Adoption services, but I cannot judge those who will have an abortion either way - no matter what the result of the referendum.

    If your a christian I think you need to study the word of god a bit better.

    To many times I hear Christians say we should not judge....that's incorrect.

    We are to use righteous judgement.

    So you are okay with other people legally being allowed to decide to kill an unborn baby for any reason before the 12th week?


  • #1625
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Actually, the British Medical Association frequently uses the term 'unborn baby'. The term is often used in both medical and legal journals.

    As for your claim that the word 'kill' is medically or legally incorrect - how do you propose that anyone can carry out an abortion without killing a living organism? Even the BPAS has a section on their website referring to 'feticide' (sic).


  • #1626
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    See the post I sent at 12.40 That is the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned. Any deviation from that position and you are going down the wrong road, and you need to find your way back.


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  • #1627
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne


    Shoobs86 wrote: »
    This is completely irrational. Where are you coming up with "white apes"? What has that got to do with anything in this thread?

    This is why non-Christian people think that we are all nuts - you must be logical in your responses!


    What is irrational about it -

    Society tries dehumanize an unborn baby so it's okay to kill them.

    Just like past societies have dehumanize other people in order to kill them / enslave them etc...


  • #1628
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    Shoobs86 wrote: »
    I don't believe that voting "No" in this referendum will cease abortion in this country. I also don't believe your position that amending the 8th Amendment will mean that there is a murder free-for-all - be sensible in your arguements, this is NOT an approval for murder in general. It is approval for the decriminalisation of a medical procedure to end a pregnancy before the 12 week mark. This procedure happens every day in all countries - this referendum will not stop it.

    I also have to point out, as the parent of a Down Syndrome child, that the testing for Down Syndrome cannot be done before 12 weeks, and therefore the risk of "abortion due to disability" is removed by this time limit.

    This is incorrect.

    In the referendum we will not be asked to vote on any 12-week limit. We will be asked to remove an article from the Constitution and to give the Oireachtas the power to legislate whatever it wants concerning abortion.

    The 12-week proposals are separate from the Referendum, and can obviously be changed at any time to suit political expediency or as our politicians decide that their views on the matter have 'evolved.'


  • #1629
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1630
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1631
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne


    Shoobs86 wrote: »
    I would not sacrifice myself for an unborn fetus. I simply would not.

    And I am terrified to think that this mentality still exists in this country.

    I am not here to breed the next generation - how dare you

    If God can forgive a murderer, an adulterer, a sinner as long as they repent then how dare you say that any woman whose life was saved by this medical procedure must explain herself to God. How dare you.


    God will forgive someone who repents and believes in is son, do you repent?


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  • #1632
    NaFirinne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭NaFirinne


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    My daughter even before 12 weeks was jumping around in the womb getting up to all sorts, she was very much alive and had personality.

    I would never ever try to dehumanize her at any stage of her development


  • #1633
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Maybe you should read the thread title?


  • #1634
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Nick Park wrote:
    Maybe you should read the thread title?


    It doesn't really matter what the time limit is, it is still a wicked crime.


  • #1635
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1636
    Nettle Soup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    Shoobs86 wrote: »
    J C wrote: »
    but this doesn't remove the moral responsibility from anybody, when they act on matters of life and death ... such as when they cast their vote in the upcoming abortion referendum.
    Do we really want a society where the most dangerous place to be is in your mother's womb?

    There are obvious substantive reasons why 'thou shall not kill' is a critical principle for society to live by ... other than the fact that it is the Sixth Commanment of God (although that in itself should be very important for any Christian).
    The most obvious (and selfish reason) is that I could be the next victim, in a society that doesn't enforce and criminally sanction the principle of 'thou shall not kill'.
    ... and you or I might never have been born, if our societies didn't protect the right to life of unborn children, at the time.
    ... so why should we metaphorically 'lift the drawbrdge' behind us now? ... and leave future generations of children to 'run the gauntlet' of being aborted, in a society that legally allows unlimited abortion?

    I think that this is the incorrect way to view the situation. As a Christian, yes, I uphold the moral and biblical law of thou shalt not kill. And therefore, I will not have an abortion by choice. However, I also currently run the risk of being killed by doctors during my pregnancy simply because there is no room in the law for them to terminate a pregnancy if I am at risk. Yes, the wording says it's ok if I am at risk - but we have seen evidence of doctors unwilling to do anything because they are afraid of being sued. I, personally, am already scared by this.

    As a Christian I also have to be honest with myself and realise that I have never walked in another's shoes; I cannot, and have no right to, interfere with someone else's choice - isn't that why God gave us Free Will? To sin, to repent, to be forgiven.

    I don't believe that voting "No" in this referendum will cease abortion in this country. I also don't believe your position that amending the 8th Amendment will mean that there is a murder free-for-all - be sensible in your arguements, this is NOT an approval for murder in general. It is approval for the decriminalisation of a medical procedure to end a pregnancy before the 12 week mark. This procedure happens every day in all countries - this referendum will not stop it.

    I also have to point out, as the parent of a Down Syndrome child, that the testing for Down Syndrome cannot be done before 12 weeks, and therefore the risk of "abortion due to disability" is removed by this time limit.

    When I weigh this all up morally, I cannot in good faith believe that I have the "high ground" above other people when I am not God - God has given people Free Will and it is not my place to judge under any circumstance. I can keep MY morals intact by not having an abortion, and by supporting proper Adoption services, but I cannot judge those who will have an abortion either way - no matter what the result of the referendum.

    Very very good post. Thank you. I wish all Christians were as rational as you.


  • #1637
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    What are you on about? You know abortion to be evil, yet you are prepared to allow it for others? Where is the logic in that?


  • #1638
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    The constitution can say what it likes. I'm telling you what God says.

    If you don't care what the Constitution says, then I guess you won't be voting against repeal.


  • #1639
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    NuMarvel wrote:
    If you don't care what the Constitution says, then I guess you won't be voting against repeal.


    That's quite an illogical statement. I ignore the man made constitution. So should you.


  • #1640
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    That's quite an illogical statement. I ignore the man made constitution. So should you.

    The man made constitution is what we'll be voting on. As you don't care what that says, and even go so far to ignore it, then my previous comment, that you won't be voting against repeal, makes perfect sense.


  • #1641
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    What are you on about? You know abortion to be evil, yet you are prepared to allow it for others? Where is the logic in that?

    Who are you talking to? God?


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  • #1642
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    What are you on about? You know abortion to be evil, yet you are prepared to allow it for others? Where is the logic in that?

    Its evil to force a woman who does not want to be pregnant, to be pregnant. Where is the logic in that?


  • #1643
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1644
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    WhiteRoses wrote:
    Its evil to force a woman who does not want to be pregnant, to be pregnant. Where is the logic in that?


    Whose forcing anyone to be pregnant? It is a decision between the disciplined couple. God has provided for infertile periods, it just requires discipline, and not to pander to every desire, as the animals do.


  • #1645
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    NuMarvel wrote:
    The man made constitution is what we'll be voting on. As you don't care what that says, and even go so far to ignore it, then my previous comment, that you won't be voting against repeal, makes perfect sense.


    Of course I'll vote against it. The eighth is not the ideal, but I have to work within the confines of the situation I'm given.


  • #1646
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    ....... wrote:
    This post has been deleted.


    I don't care if it's four million.


  • #1647
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,038 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    Whose forcing anyone to be pregnant? It is a decision between the disciplined couple. God has provided for infertile periods, it just requires discipline, and not to pander to every desire, as the animals do.

    Currently, the Irish government is. When a woman becomes pregnant, she can't request an abortion as it's illegal for abortion on request.

    Therefore the woman is forced to continue with the pregnancy unless she leaves the country (which isn't an option for every pregnant woman).

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1648
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Delirium wrote:
    Therefore the woman is forced to continue with the pregnancy unless she leaves the country (which isn't an option for every pregnant woman).


    She can have an abortion if it comes in, but it doesn't alter the situation regarding consequences.


  • #1649
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    Whose forcing anyone to be pregnant? It is a decision between the disciplined couple. God has provided for infertile periods, it just requires discipline, and not to pander to every desire, as the animals do.

    You are very very naive if this is genuinely how you think crisis pregnancies happen and are dealt with.


  • #1650
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    Of course I'll vote against it. The eighth is not the ideal, but I have to work within the confines of the situation I'm given.

    So you do care what the "man made constitution" says and you're not ignoring it.

    Which means all of this was a way to evade a proper response to my original point.


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  • #1651
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    She can have an abortion if it comes in, but it doesn't alter the situation regarding consequences.

    That's grand so because the vast majority of people don't believe in your version of consequences.


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