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Uninsured driver hit cyclist in Dublin, fled scene gets community service

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    #62
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    probably posted already - hit and run in tallaght last night, teenager in intensive care:

    Looks horrific. There's a few cameras on that road from the N81 down to around the Luas tracks as it crosses into City West so hopefully they'll catch something.


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    #63
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    probably posted already - hit and run in tallaght last night, teenager in intensive care:

    http://irishcycle.com/2018/02/05/teenager-in-icu-after-hit-and-run-driver-smashes-bicycle/

    That’s just up on the indo too

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/young-cyclist-14-in-serious-condition-after-hitandrun-incident-36569607.html

    Pooor kid. I hope he pulls through, and they get the driver. Then over to the judiciary.....


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The 1st article has a link a post from a relative of the victim on facebook showing what was left of the bike on the cycle lane :(

    Really hope the kid makes it and has no life changing injuries.


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    #65
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Have seen someone comment on Facebook that they saw the accident in Tallaght. Looked like joyriders according to them.
    Looking at the state of his bike in the pictures...Christ.


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    #66
    fat bloke
    Registered Users Posts: 5,830 ✭✭✭fat bloke


    Awful stuff.
    I wonder will the judge also deem that to be on the "lower end" of the offences scale.


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    #67
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    he won't. because (if it *is* a joyriding case) he won't mentally place himself in the same position as the driver and think 'there but for the grace of god go i'.


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    #68
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,832 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    Seen the pic of the bike and I felt sick to my stomach. Hope to fcuk the young fella is ok. Looks horrific. The bastwards that hit him should never see the drivers seat of a car again. And then some. How the fcuk can you walk away from that as a human. It's beyond words.


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    #69
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    You'll have to listen to Adrian Kennedy but his father and aunt were interviewed there tonight
    http://www.98fm.com/podcasts/Dublin_Talks/98FMs_Dublin_Talks/65000/Tallaght_Dads_Plea_After_Child_Left_For_Dead_Last_Night

    Seems like he's going to be ok but has a long, hard road ahead.


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    #70
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,394 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    fat bloke wrote: »
    Awful stuff.
    I wonder will the judge also deem that to be on the "lower end" of the offences scale.
    Sure the higher end where you drive to the pub , get pissed, intentionally drive home, hit a cyclists and leave them for dead in a ditch , destroy the car, move to Australia the next day and eventually get caught in England and extradited only gets you 2.5 year


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    #71
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    nee wrote: »
    Seen the pic of the bike and I felt sick to my stomach. Hope to fcuk the young fella is ok. Looks horrific. The bastwards that hit him should never see the drivers seat of a car again. And then some. How the fcuk can you walk away from that as a human. It's beyond words.

    It’s a truly shocking and sobering picture which perfectly illustrates how vulnerable cyclists are. Every judge should be shown it to educate them to the fact that cyclists are 100% vulnerable. There is no lower end.


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    #72
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lower end - hit and run, costing the irish tax payer billions etc.

    Higher end - smuggling garlic, laundered diesel.


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    #73
    mamax
    Registered Users Posts: 879 ✭✭✭mamax


    el tel wrote: »
    Would this judgement in this court set a legal precedent?

    Maybe it will

    Lets say I arrive home tonight and find a guy in bed with my wife and I shoot him dead in the bedroom I will get a life sentence which in Ireland averages out at 14 years in jail.

    So instead of shooting him I run him over with my car the next day and I will get off with community service.

    There could be a lot of gangland 'hit and run' cases around the country very soon if the courts don't cop on a bit :eek:


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    #74
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    mamax wrote: »
    Maybe it will

    Lets say I arrive home tonight and find a guy in bed with my wife and I shoot him dead in the bedroom I will get a life sentence which in Ireland averages out at 14 years in jail.

    So instead of shooting him I run him over with my car the next day and I will get off with community service.

    There could be a lot of gangland 'hit and run' cases around the country very soon if the courts don't cop on a bit :eek:

    They key distinctions in this case are:

    1. Nobody died.
    2. The incident wasn't deliberate (no intent).

    On the other hand the aggravating factors are:

    1. The negligence in driving unsupervised with inadequate training (and no license).
    2. The negligence in driving into someone.
    3. The cowardly act of fleeing the scene.

    I haven't followed this closely but it seems to me that the judge just looks at the whole situation and says "ah well, nobody died so I'm not sending him to jail". There really is an incredibly high bar for sending people to jail, across the board, it's not some conspiracy against cyclists.

    Anyway it seems the best way to deal with this sort case in a transparent way is to separate out these issues and prosecute them as separate offences.

    The sad fact is that negligence in driving is not dealt with seriously in Ireland (is it anywhere? Loads of reports from the US of the same).


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    #75
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    The Beyond the Kerb blog makes a convincing case that it killing someone with a car is indeed the best way to kill without facing serious penalties (in the UK at least).

    There was a case here a few years back where a victim of burglary chased the burglar in a car, hit him and pinned him to the wall. I cant recall the outcome though.


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    #76
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    droidus wrote: »
    There was a case here a few years back where a victim of burglary chased the burglar in a car, hit him and pinned him to the wall. I cant recall the outcome though.
    Compo!

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dad-cleared-of-assault-tells-of-breaking-burglars-legs-26822214.html


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    #77
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,060 ✭✭✭buffalo


    droidus wrote: »
    The Beyond the Kerb blog makes a convincing case that it killing someone with a car is indeed the best way to kill without facing serious penalties (in the UK at least).

    Love this headline: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Bicycling-Mob-Rides-Wrong-Way-Attacks-Drivers-Manhattan-472536893.html

    Cop Hurt as Cycling Mob Rides Wrong Way Through NYC Streets, Attacks Drivers: Witnesses, Police

    A cycling mob attacks a cop!! No, wait...
    At one point, a driver who had been assaulted by a bicyclist made a U-turn against the flow of traffic in an attempt to chase down the group. That's when he or she hit an NYPD officer, injuring the officer's leg and hand, law enforcement sources said. That person wasn't expected to face charges because it appeared to be an accident,

    Running into a cop while doing a u-turn to drive the wrong way down a road? Be grand, sure you were driving at the time, accidents happen.


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    #78
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    More to the point, you can pursue someone in a car, drive into them, pin them to a wall and break their legs and get away with it scott free.


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    #79
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,748 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    mamax wrote: »

    So instead of shooting him I run him over with my car the next day and I will get off with community service.

    The serial killers in Sightseers begin by running a litter lout over in their recreational vehicle. If they hadn't moved on to non-motorised methods, the story would have ended with them picking up litter in the third act.


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    #80
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Giving the posts on here I can take that most people posting have next to zero experience of how the criminal justice system operates here.

    If you spent a day or a half day listening to district court appeals to circuit court it would probably open a lot of eyes to a few realities
    *there is an "underclass" of people who frequent criminal court houses as often as most frequent their favourite shops
    *the arguments made on their behalf and usually something akin to what you might have come up with in school when you forgot to do your homework; it would almost be funny except for the joke it makes of victim's suffering. Often you could have the same barrister acting for as many as 10 clients, coming out with one bullsh1t excuse after another with a little law thrown in
    *criminal courts are all about the Accused's rights, the victims is usually just a witness
    *crime pays; have a look around the car park for confirmation of that. Usually each town has a lawyer or two who does the vast majority of crime in that area. Legal Aids pays for it all, the route to success is keeping said "underclass" happy and getting the business.
    *the judge listening to all this nonsense comes from the same culture as those acting on behalf of the Accused. This sort of springs to mind
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cryMVK1PwuQ


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    #81
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    droidus wrote: »
    More to the point, you can pursue someone in a car, drive into them, pin them to a wall and break their legs and get away with it scott free.
    Whilst it seems different enough from the case in this thread, I suppose the point is that when driving a car you can cite incompetence at the wheel and have a jury use that as an excuse to let you off, because the excuse of driving after the burglar is plausible.

    Whereas a baseball ball is difficult to use as a means of transport.


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    #82
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    Lumen wrote: »
    Whilst it seems different enough from the case in this thread, I suppose the point is that when driving a car you can cite incompetence at the wheel and have a jury use that as an excuse to let you off, because the excuse of driving after the burglar is plausible.

    Whereas a baseball ball is difficult to use as a means of transport.

    Absolutely. The problem is that incompetence should only be an excuse in the most extenuating circumstances and drivers have an obligation to minimise risk, otherwise it becomes a catch all excuse for the most appalling behaviour.

    https://beyondthekerb.org.uk/the-incompetence-paradox/


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    #83
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    @ford2600 solicitors and barristers have a duty to provide the best defence they can, that's their job. Whilst your point about judges coming from the same culture as the solicitors and barristers is true, where do you suggest we recruit judges from? Boards?


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    #84
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Lumen wrote: »
    @ford2600 solicitors and barristers have a duty to provide the best defence they can, that's their job. Whilst your point about judges coming from the same culture as the solicitors and barristers is true, where do you suggest we recruit judges from? Boards?

    The point about where judges come from was that they cut their teeth making the same bullsh1t arguments; it's the culture. Some straight thinking person outside that culture might scream "WTF" at the same nonsense.

    All judge appointments are political; not on ability. If you are from FF stock you are not going to get appointed any time soon.

    It is really common for a barrister with huge expertise in same something specialised like conveyancing/contract law to end up as a judge in something completely different.

    The system is dysfunctional in many ways. Spend a day at district appeals to civil court and tell me it is all good. It certainly wouldn't be a good way to recruit good people into our police force.

    While a judicial system can't be expected to correct dysfunction in society our system could certainly be a lot better.


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    #85
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,574 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Talking to a solicitor friend the other day and his opinion on it was that, as terrible as it sounds, the judges opinion will be that there is nothing to be gained from sending him to jail. He won't learn anymore there.

    Maybe there is a point, as Lumen said, the initial crime was not intentional.

    This said, leaving the scene was, driving unsupervised was and so on. As a minimum, his license should have been pulled or the privilege of holding one in future, should have been taken from him for a set period of time. The car should have been seized and either sold or destroyed. His name flagged to the CVO and banned from owning a car for the period of his license being withheld. A warning on Pulse that should he be lifted for any motoring related offences in future, no matter how minor, he should serve a minimum sentence.

    He lives in Finglas, he should in theory never need to drive thanks to being in Dublin.


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    #86
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,030 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Talking to a solicitor friend the other day and his opinion on it was that, as terrible as it sounds, the judges opinion will be that there is nothing to be gained from sending him to jail. He won't learn anymore there.
    We send people to jail as punishment and to temporarily remove them as a threat to society, not to rehabilitate them.


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    #87
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Talking to a solicitor friend the other day and his opinion on it was that, as terrible as it sounds, the judges opinion will be that there is nothing to be gained from sending him to jail. He won't learn anymore there..

    Punishment should not be just about the Accused and what is good for him/her.

    It should send the message to victims; you matter.

    It should send the message to society; this is what happens when you break this law.

    Our criminal system is almost entirely about the Accused and his/her rights


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    #88
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,748 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    It's another odd aspect of the mindset of the habitual driver, who make up the overwhelming majority of the judiciary, I think, and probably a majority of most juries. Because they don't get around any other way, they implicitly seem to think that people without the option to drive sit at home all day, unemployed, and that seems to be the inappropriate punishment they are rejecting, rather than simply not having the option to drive.


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    #89
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,526 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Talking to a solicitor friend the other day and his opinion on it was that, as terrible as it sounds, the judges opinion will be that there is nothing to be gained from sending him to jail. He won't learn anymore there.

    Maybe there is a point, as Lumen said, the initial crime was not intentional.

    This said, leaving the scene was, driving unsupervised was and so on. As a minimum, his license should have been pulled or the privilege of holding one in future, should have been taken from him for a set period of time. The car should have been seized and either sold or destroyed. His name flagged to the CVO and banned from owning a car for the period of his license being withheld. A warning on Pulse that should he be lifted for any motoring related offences in future, no matter how minor, he should serve a minimum sentence.

    He lives in Finglas, he should in theory never need to drive thanks to being in Dublin.


    Yes there is something to be gained - which is to serve as a deterrent to others.

    On the one hand - you have a lot of young lads out there who want to drive.

    On the other - insurance is through the roof, and a drivers licence is quite expensive to get.

    And on the other - Young lads know that they can really really really mess up on the roads, without having a licence or insurance.....and they wont really be punished.

    So what does young lad decide to do......


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    #90
    Kaisr Sose
    Registered Users Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Giving the posts on here I can take that most people posting have next to zero experience of how the criminal justice system operates here.

    If you spent a day or a half day listening to district court appeals to circuit court it would probably open a lot of eyes to a few realities
    *there is an "underclass" of people who frequent criminal court houses as often as most frequent their favourite shops
    *the arguments made on their behalf and usually something akin to what you might have come up with in school when you forgot to do your homework; it would almost be funny except for the joke it makes of victim's suffering. Often you could have the same barrister acting for as many as 10 clients, coming out with one bullsh1t excuse after another with a little law thrown in
    *criminal courts are all about the Accused's rights, the victims is usually just a witness
    *crime pays; have a look around the car park for confirmation of that. Usually each town has a lawyer or two who does the vast majority of crime in that area. Legal Aids pays for it all, the route to success is keeping said "underclass" happy and getting the business.
    *the judge listening to all this nonsense comes from the same culture as those acting on behalf of the Accused. This sort of springs to mind
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cryMVK1PwuQ

    You have nailed it there. I have witnessed it twice in district courts. It’s a real eye opener. The judge was more sympathetic to accused, than victim and very hard on Garda presenting evidence.
    One case involved accused charged with breach of barring order. He denied knowledge of this. Judge hammered the Garda for saying he was aware of barring order when he was called to property as it was on record at the station. Judge would not allow the Garda introduce his knowledge of barring order into evidence - classifying it as hearsay! Defence applied for case to be struck out as there was no evidence the accused was unlawfully at the property or knew they were breaching a barring order. The judge agreeed. Case dismissed. What’s the point of a barring order if you can’t use its existence to prosecute for breaching it?
    The same solicitor represented about 6 different people on the day.


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    #91
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,772 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    You'll have to listen to Adrian Kennedy but his father and aunt were interviewed there tonight
    http://www.98fm.com/podcasts/Dublin_Talks/98FMs_Dublin_Talks/65000/Tallaght_Dads_Plea_After_Child_Left_For_Dead_Last_Night

    Seems like he's going to be ok but has a long, hard road ahead.
    Sean’s father John O’Reilly told The Irish Times his son had suffered extensive injuries including a broken skull, fractured bones in his face, broken legs and a fractured neck and was undergoing surgery on Monday afternoon.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cyclist-14-remains-in-serious-condition-after-tallaght-hit-and-run-1.3381982


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