Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

Peregrinus · 06-02-2018 02:45AM

Noctifer wrote: »

It's their mistake. If they would have a proper documented system in place I would not mind, that's why I came here to ask questions. But looking at this thread there is a clear lack of information.
Now why would I make such a stupid gamble and report taxes in a system that has no clear rules when I could just do in another country where things are clear?

Because you don't owe the taxes in another country; you owe them here.

As for a "clear lack of information" and "no clear rules", you've been told again and again what the rules are. You don't like the rules, but that's not the same thing as their being no rules.

and as for your complaints about the Revenue not having a properly documented system in place, it's not the Revenue's job to document your affairs; it's yours. Because you find this onerous, because your affairs are complex, you are proposing to engage in tax evasion. This is a crime, and having paid taxes in another country will not be a defence. You will get no sympathy for that stance in this forum.

Peregrinus · 06-02-2018 05:35AM

Noctifer wrote: »

Where are the rules on how to calculate transactions?

They're on the revenue site, reflecting what is in the tax legislation, which is also on the web.

Noctifer wrote: »

What about fees, especially fees paid in crypto?

What makes you think fees paid in crypto are treated differently from fees paid in any other currency? Why even would they be? There are rules about fees. They apply to all fees, regardless of whether you pay them in euros, US dollars, Thai baht or eutherium. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Noctifer wrote: »

How are traders and investors in crypto defined?

Why would you expect "traders and investors in crypto" to be defined? It isn't defined, and neither is "traders and investors in scrap metal". There are no special rules about traders and investors in crypto, or about traders and investors in scrap metal; why would there be any need for a definition of either term?

Noctifer wrote: »

People mentioned badges of trade, yet there is no word on it on revenue site.

Really? I googled "badges of trade" site:.ie and this was the first hit. It's from the Revenue site; it's the chapter from the Revenue's Tax and Duty Manual on What Constitutes a Trade? and it makes frequent reference to the badges of trade. And, if you repeat the google search that I did, you'll find lots of hits below the first from Irish sites offering commentary, discussing and explaining the badges of trade and their application in practice, etc.

And, if you care to, you can google "badges of trade" site:revenue.ie to find other pages on the Revenue site that mention the badges of trade.

It's a bit like the value of crypto, Noctifer. The information is readily available and it's not difficult to find it if you want to. It's only difficult if you desperately
want to believe that it's difficult because you need to construct some colourable excuse to yourself for your intended tax evasion.

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 08:45AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Because you don't owe the taxes in another country; you owe them here.

That's for me to decide, not them. After all, it is called a self assessment system, thus my assessment is I don't own them any tax.

There are legal ways to go about this.

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 08:48AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Really? I googled "badges of trade" site:.ie and this was the first hit.

I didn't get that last week when I tried to search for it. Might be due to the VPN.

Thanks!

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 08:51AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would you expect "traders and investors in crypto" to be defined? It isn't defined, and neither is "traders and investors in scrap metal". There are no special rules about traders and investors in crypto, or about traders and investors in scrap metal; why would there be any need for a definition of either term?

From what people have said a trader has to report it as income while an investor has to report it as CGT. Those are two very different things. If my day trading puts me into the income category then it could mean a potential issue with my current employer, and I don't want to lose my job.

Peregrinus · 06-02-2018 08:53AM

Noctifer wrote: »

That's for me to decide, not them. After all, it is called a self assessment system, thus my assessment is I don't own them any tax.

That's not part of the assessment!

Noctifer wrote: »

There are legal ways to go about this.

Well, you haven't pointed to any so far.

Peregrinus · 06-02-2018 08:55AM

Noctifer wrote: »

From what people have said a trader has to report it as income while an investor has to report it as CGT. Those are two very different things. If my day trading puts me into the income category then it could mean a potential issue with my current employer, and I don't want to lose my job.

How would your current employer even know about this? And what business of his is it to regulate your personal financial affairs and activities?

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 09:02AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's not part of the assessment!

Well, you haven't pointed to any so far.

I wouldn't be trading crypto. My grandmother/father/brother/another family member I trust would do it. They would report CGT in another country and I would get the money.

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 09:02AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

How would your current employer even know about this? And what business of his is it to regulate your personal financial affairs and activities?

By contract I am obligated to inform my employer if I have a second job. If they would see it as a conflict of interest, I would be in major trouble.

Peregrinus · 06-02-2018 09:08AM

Noctifer wrote: »

By contract I am obligated to inform my employer if I have a second job. If they would see it as a conflict of interest, I would be in major trouble.

Your private investment activity is not "a second job"; nobody is employing you to do it.

Whether your day-trading in crypto creates a conflict of interest with regard to your principal employment is a question of fact and depends largely, I would guess, on what your principal employment is. But I struggle to believe that whether it creates a conflict of interest is going to depend on which tax regime it falls under.

I seriously doubt that you have a problem here. But, if you do, it's not a problem that can be solved by having your earnings from crypto dealings taxed as capital gains under the Capital Gains Tax Act rather than as income under the Taxes Consolidation Act.

barneystinson · 06-02-2018 09:11AM

Noctifer wrote: »

I wouldn't be trading crypto. My grandmother/father/brother/another family member I trust would do it. They would report CGT in another country and I would get the money.

That's tax evasion. I thought you knew a legal way to do it!

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 09:26AM

barneystinson wrote: »

That's tax evasion. I thought you knew a legal way to do it!

How? I am not the one trading crypto. I do not have an account on any exchange. Is there are law that says I can't access another persons account and trade on it?

Peregrinus · 06-02-2018 09:31AM

Noctifer wrote: »

How? I am not the one trading crypto. I do not have an account on any exchange. Is there are law that says I can't access another persons account and trade on it?

No. But there's nothing in current law which says that your gains are only chargeable if made by effecting transactions on account in your own name. If they're your gains, you're chargeable on them, regardless of how many people have co-operated in how many different ways to enable you to make the gains.

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 09:59AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. But there's nothing in current law which says that your gains are only chargeable if made by effecting transactions on account in your own name. If they're your gains, you're chargeable on them, regardless of how many people have co-operated in how many different ways to enable you to make the gains.

But I would make no gains. In fact, the money would not even go to my Irish bank account.

barneystinson · 06-02-2018 11:07AM

Noctifer wrote: »

How? I am not the one trading crypto. I do not have an account on any exchange. Is there are law that says I can't access another persons account and trade on it?

Does that not contradict this:

Noctifer wrote: »

I have seen that. The problem is that I am a day trader. As such, I end up paying a lot in fees. For example, I could end the day with a 20 euro gain, but end up paying 100 euros in fees. Last year I ended up earning over 10k, but I payed over 7k in fees. To me that sounds too good to be true as it would drasticly lower my taxable income from trading.

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 11:08AM

barneystinson wrote: »

Does that not contradict this:

Nope.

barneystinson · 06-02-2018 11:14AM

Noctifer wrote: »

Nope.

How not? You have said you earned 10k, and now you're saying you didn't? Maybe you don't understand what a contradiction is? https://www.google.com/search?q=Contradiction

Noctifer · 06-02-2018 11:17AM

barneystinson wrote: »

How not? You have said you earned 10k, and now you're saying you didn't? Maybe you don't understand what a contradiction is? https://www.google.com/search?q=Contradiction

If I don't have an account on any exchange and I didn't receive any payments to my bank accounts, how exactly did I earn money from Revenues perspective?

If there is no corpse, there is no murder.

barneystinson · 06-02-2018 11:26AM

Noctifer wrote: »

If I don't have an account on any exchange and I didn't receive any payments to my bank accounts, how exactly did I earn money from Revenues perspective?

If there is no corpse, there is no murder.

Ok I think we're done here. I don't intend to continue in a loop with you. Your posts are clear enough and I've pointed out the contradiction.

There's a fundamental distinction between getting away with something, and it not having actually happened. Your posts make it abundantly clear you're aware of this fact, via the magical transformation your gains have undertaken, from CGT, to income tax, to tantrums about Revenue's information or lack thereof, to choosing not to pay any taxes here, to it not actually being your gains at all.... quite the rollercoaster you're on... :rolleyes:

Dades · 06-02-2018 05:19PM

You seem keen to follow some rules, but not others, when it suits your argument. :pac:

Noctifer wrote: »

If there is no corpse, there is no murder.

Noctifer wrote: »

By contract I am obligated to inform my employer if I have a second job.

Cryptonovice · 06-02-2018 10:21PM

I got this reply from revenue today. I have deleted my name and the lady who replied to me for privacy purposes. They took 4 weeks to reply initially to my first query and 3 days to reply to my second question which is answered below.

Dear ....., If you sell, gift or exchange your cryptocurrency, this is considered to be a disposal. Capital Gains Tax is payable on any gain you may make at the time of disposal. For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year. For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year. Further information on the how you calculate and pay Capital Gains Tax can be found on our website; www.revenue.ie Kind regards,..

So I guess thats it finally, Peregrinus, Greebo et al. you were spot on...I had a feeling you were. Anyway, can we please use this thread now for advise purposes because there is people here who know what they are talking about and people who dont have experience in this area (Like myself)

Fakent.ie · 06-02-2018 11:44PM

Cryptonovice wrote: »

I got this reply from revenue today. I have deleted my name and the lady who replied to me for privacy purposes. They took 4 weeks to reply initially to my first query and 3 days to reply to my second question which is answered below.

Dear ....., If you sell, gift or exchange your cryptocurrency, this is considered to be a disposal. Capital Gains Tax is payable on any gain you may make at the time of disposal. For disposals made between 1 January and 30 November (the initial period) you must pay CGT by 15 December of the same year. For disposals made between 1 December and 31 December (the later period) you must pay CGT by 31 January of the next year. Further information on the how you calculate and pay Capital Gains Tax can be found on our website; www.revenue.ie Kind regards,..

So I guess thats it finally, Peregrinus, Greebo et al. you were spot on...I had a feeling you were. Anyway, can we please use this thread now for advise purposes because there is people here who know what they are talking about and people who dont have experience in this area (Like myself)

Can you post the questions you asked her please.
ye your right it is looking like those lads where right.

bebeman · 07-02-2018 01:31AM

No CGT on crypto in Belgium, Belarus, Slovenia, Portugal and Panama. If you make million move to one of theses places and cash out.

unkel · 07-02-2018 02:01AM

No CGT at all in the Netherlands. Capital gains are untaxed. On crypto and on any other capital gains. Has always been like that :cool:

There is a tax on owning capital though, but it is small

Peregrinus · 07-02-2018 03:44AM

Noctifer wrote: »

But I would make no gains. In fact, the money would not even go to my Irish bank account.

Doesn't matter. You have already told us that:

Noctifer wrote: »

My grandmother/father/brother/another family member I trust would do it. They would report CGT in another country and I would get the money.

Irish residents are taxable on their worldwide income and gains. Your liability to tax does not depend on whether you remit the gains to an Irish bank account, or to a bank account in your own name.

Peregrinus · 07-02-2018 03:46AM

bebeman wrote: »

No CGT on crypto in Belgium, Belarus, Slovenia, Portugal and Panama. If you make million move to one of theses places and cash out.

Move to one of these places, wait three years so that you cease to be ordinarily resident in Ireland for tax purposes, hope to God that your crypto does not decline in value during this period and then cash out.

Noctifer · 07-02-2018 09:05AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Doesn't matter. You have already told us that:

Irish residents are taxable on their worldwide income and gains. Your liability to tax does not depend on whether you remit the gains to an Irish bank account, or to a bank account in your own name.

They are only taxable if Revenue finds out. Trading under a different name and not linking the money to yourself cannot be traced by Revenue.

Imagine someone gets your document and uses them to trade in your name on an exchange. Let's say 5 years down the line Revenue gets data from all exchange for their citizens, on that list is you even though you never did trade crypto. How would you prove to Revenue that it's not you?

Dades wrote: »

You seem keen to follow some rules, but not others, when it suits your argument. :pac:

I rather keep my job and owe Revenue taxes and fees than to lose my job and pay taxes as I am supposed to.

Noctifer · 07-02-2018 09:09AM

There is also no CGT on crypto you hold for over 1 year in Germany.

Peregrinus · 07-02-2018 09:20AM

Noctifer wrote: »

They are only taxable if Revenue finds out. Trading under a different name and not linking the money to yourself cannot be traced by Revenue.

No, they're taxable because the disposal has occurred and the gain has been realised. If your strategy for not having them actually taxed involves concealing the disposal and the gain from the Revenue by not complying with your obligation to file a return of your gains, that's tax evasion.

Noctifer wrote: »

Imagine someone gets your document and uses them to trade in your name on an exchange. Let's say 5 years down the line Revenue gets data from all exchange for their citizens, on that list is you even though you never did trade crypto. How would you prove to Revenue that it's not you?

How is that remotely relevant to your situation?

Since you ask, what you have here is a case of identity theft. Victims of identity theft can often be in a sticky situation (and not just with respect to the Revenue) but for an identity theft scam to be successful there has to be some link to the person who has stolen your identity where a link to you would be expected. In the case you suggest, for instance, presumably the person who has stolen your identity won't have arranged with the exchange to pay the disposal proceeds to your bank account; he'll have had them paid to his account. Proving that you're a victim of identity theft involves looking for the connections to your bank account, address, etc that should be there but aren't, or looking for connections to addresses, accounts, etc that are unconnnected with you.

But, as noted, this has nothing to do with the situation you currently face. Regardless of whether you comply with your tax return obligations today, you could someday be a victim of identity theft. That's unfortunate, but I don't see any connection between these two things.

Peregrinus · 07-02-2018 09:21AM

Noctifer wrote: »

There is also no CGT on crypto you hold for over 1 year.

What makes you think that?

Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

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