Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

recedite · 02-02-2018 11:05AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The existing 8th provisions are the problem

You're calling it a "problem" that the state recognises a basic right to life and bodily integrity for unborn people. Before the 8th, a similar right was already bestowed by historical anti-abortion "offences against the person acts" derived from old British law.

Now, for the first time, it is proposed to remove the right to life from a whole class of (insert appropriate term here) who currently enjoy the full protection of the state.
So of course that is fundamentally a constitutional matter.

I'm saying another solution might be to take away the rights of a small subsection of that group.

Zubeneschamali · 02-02-2018 11:09AM

recedite wrote: »

I'm saying another solution might be to take away the rights of a small subsection of that group.

I'm saying that is not a full solution, it only solves the problem for a small subsection of people, so we would be back arguing this again in a year or two.

volchitsa · 02-02-2018 11:37AM

recedite wrote: »

You're calling it a "problem" that the state recognises a basic right to life and bodily integrity for unborn people. Before the 8th, a similar right was already bestowed by historical anti-abortion "offences against the person acts" derived from old British law.

That's a misrepresetantion of the OATP act which was more about ownership of the fetus and control of women, not about any rights the fetus was felt to have, because it didn't. But women didnt have the vote or indeed much legal agency at all at the time, so the idea that the woman herself might have had rights that could override her duty to reproduce didn't really occur to anyone it seems.

The "person" wasnt the fetus. And I think even suicide may still have been technically illegal at the time - they really didn't have same notion of individual freedoms that have developed.)

So for example if you read about birth and death in Victorian Britain, deformed or disabled newborns were often just put in a bedpan and left to die.

And nobody listened to the views of the silly woman who had just given birth, sure it was a given that women were emotional creatures who wouldn't know what the sensible course of action was.

Now, for the first time, it is proposed to remove the right to life from a whole class of (insert appropriate term here) who currently enjoy the full protection of the state.
So of course that is fundamentally a constitutional matter.

I'm saying another solution might be to take away the rights of a small subsection of that group.

This makes no sense at all. On what grounds would you take away the rights of a subsection of "people" and grant them to the rest? Unless they're criminals of course.

Or of course you could say that fetuses are not people, only potential ones, and give them rights that don't override those of the woman inside whom they live.

FreudianSlippers · 02-02-2018 01:02PM

It's their fallacious argument that without a specific definition of "unborn" in the Constitution that viable "unborn" aren't "persons" pursuant to the normal protections afforded to the "born" under the Constitution.

It shows not only an absolute lack of understanding of the Constitution but of common law in general.

oscarBravo · 02-02-2018 01:21PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It shows not only an absolute lack of understanding of the Constitution but of common law in general.

...and of medical ethics, hence my repeated (unanswered) question of exactly who is demanding the killing of viable foetuses just prior to delivery?

recedite · 02-02-2018 06:56PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'm saying that is not a full solution, it only solves the problem for a small subsection of people, so we would be back arguing this again in a year or two.

What problem can easy access to mid-late term abortions solve?
Bearing in mind that since 1992 abortion has been lawful if the mothers life is at risk.

I think there is a legal problem with FFA, but it could be better solved by changing the law around "end of life" scenarios in general, ie the ethical principles involved in keeping a dying person alive longer than necessary are not specific to the unborn. We see the same problems in that assisted suicide is illegal, even though a terminally ill person might want help and comfort from a spouse.
Also in geriatric wards where people at the end of their life can be taken off normal medication and effectively be starved to death on a drip containing water, electrolyte, sedatives, and painkillers, but no glucose.
Sometimes it's the kindest thing to do, while staying within the law.

pitifulgod · 02-02-2018 07:35PM

recedite wrote: »

What problem can easy access to mid-late term abortions solve?
Bearing in mind that since 1992 abortion has been lawful if the mothers life is at risk.

I think there is a legal problem with FFA, but it could be better solved by changing the law around "end of life" scenarios in general, ie the ethical principles involved in keeping a dying person alive longer than necessary are not specific to the unborn. We see the same problems in that assisted suicide is illegal, even though a terminally ill person might want help and comfort from a spouse.
Also in geriatric wards where people at the end of their life can be taken off normal medication and effectively be starved to death on a drip containing water, electrolyte, sedatives, and painkillers, but no glucose.
Sometimes it's the kindest thing to do, while staying within the law.

What you're proposing is making the existing constitution even more complex and convoluted on the issue of abortion. It would involve adding in an allowance of abortion up until a certain period but in addition, covering fatal foetal abnormalities up until a later period. A pretty risky move given the problems our existing constitution has created.

2wsxcde3 · 02-02-2018 08:22PM

Here are 4 reasons to be suspicious about the purchase of abortion pills online in the Rep. of Ireland:

Reason 1: Are abortion pills being delivered to fake addresses in the Rep. Of Ireland?

According to an Irish Times article in 2017 (Number Of Abortion Pills Seized By Irish Customs Declines - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/number-of-abortion-pills-seized-by-irish-customs-declines-1.3059156 )

The article states:

“Rebecca Gomperts, founder of Women on Web …advises Irish women seeking medication to terminate an early stage pregnancy to order the pills to a Northern Irish address, or post office, and then travel up to collect them.”

Women on Web are advising women to not give their home address when ordering abortion pills online to avoid a possible prosecution if they are caught. This creates a problem. In other words, individuals (or groups with dishonest motives) could order abortion pills online from the UK and have them sent to post offices (or even send them to fake addresses in the Rep. Of Ireland). This would inflate the numbers of abortion pills being used in the Rep. of Ireland to help make the case for an abortion referendum here in the Rep. of Ireland.

Reason 2: Why are there no prosecutions of women who attempted to buy abortion pills online?

The Irish Times article goes on to say:

"Nearly 550 pills were seized last year, according to figures from the Health Products Regulatory Authority, down from 850 in 2015 and 1,107 pills in 2014. The HPRA, alongside Irish customs and gardaí monitor the supply and attempted importing to illicit prescription medicines into Ireland. “To safeguard human health, the HPRA uses a range of enforcement powers to tackle this activity, including seizing product and taking prosecutions,” a HPRA spokesperson said.

If 550 pills were seized by customs in Ireland in 2016, and they prosecute people who try to import these pills to the Rep. Of Ireland, then where are the prosecutions in the courts today? Is the reason these prosecutions don’t exist (and can’t be taken) is because the addresses the pills were going to in the Rep. Of Ireland were fake addresses in the Republic (and/or post offices and then never collected?).

Reason 3: Abortion pills, for delivery to Ireland, are being bulk purchased from the UK

The Irish Times article says:

The 536 tablets seized last year were from 44 attempted importations.

In other words, there weren’t 536 Irish women buying 536 abortion pills online. There were 44 bulk purchases of the pills. That is an average of 12 abortion pills per purchase. No pregnant woman would buy 12 abortion pills. The question has to be asked; who is bulk buying abortion pills from the UK and having them delivered to the Rep. of Ireland? And is this being done to deliberately inflate the number of abortion pills bought online in the Rep. of Ireland?

Reason 4: Almost no one knew of abortion pills in the Republic until recently

Very few people in the Rep. Of Ireland even knew of abortion pills until they began to be talked about in the media over the last two years. On releasing the Oireachtas Report on abortion in Dec 2017, even the chairperson of the committee Catherine Noone appeared on RTE news and said she had never even heard of abortion pills until recently.

Conclusion

In conclusion, for as little as €100,000, individuals (or groups) with dishonest motives could be bulk buying abortion pills into the Rep. of Ireland and having them delivered to fake addresses in order to give the impression to the Irish public that 100s and even 1000s of women in the Rep. Of Ireland were buying abortion pills when in reality they weren’t. Such people would need to order in bulk as they would not be able to provide 1000+ different credit cards when ordering online (for each individual order). They could however gather 44+ credit cards, and then bulk buy abortion pills in batches of 12 on each card.

And that the reason this was done was to cover over the fact that the numbers of women travelling from the Rep. of Ireland to the UK for abortions has fallen in recent years, despite Irelands expanding population in this time-frame. Which would make sense as young people seem to be having less sex then previous generations:

Last year, one study on human interaction stopped us in our tracks. Despite sexual liberation, contraception, dating apps and social media, young people are having less sex than any generation in 60 years.

(Source: Teenagers keep their distance in the cautious new world of dating and sex - https://www.independent.ie/style/sex-relationships/why-millennials-stopped-having-sex-34866259.html )

People nowadays would have less sex than previous generations, and for a good reason. Why? The HPV vaccine might be a clue. For the first time in human history, people are now aware that the more sexual partners you have the higher your chances of getting cancer (due to contracting different forms of HPV). And even the HPV vaccine only protects you from 70% of the strains of HPV that cause cancer. It doesn't protect you from the other 30% of strains. That one night stand doesn't look as attractive as it once did. And consequently, the numbers of unplanned pregnancies are dropping accordingly.

recedite · 02-02-2018 09:12PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

What you're proposing is making the existing constitution even more complex and convoluted on the issue of abortion. It would involve adding in an allowance of abortion up until a certain period but in addition, covering fatal foetal abnormalities up until a later period. A pretty risky move given the problems our existing constitution has created.

Not at all. I suggested relaxing the 8th so that it only kicks in after a certain point, maybe after 9 weeks. Thereafter it would apply the same as before.

NuMarvel · 02-02-2018 09:47PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Reason 1: Are abortion pills being delivered to fake addresses in the Rep. Of Ireland?.

That's not a reason, that's a question. And it's a question to which the answer is; Not that anyone can prove.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Reason 2: Why are there no prosecutions of women who attempted to buy abortion pills online? .

From a quick look, it seems the relevant authority is slow to bring prosecutions in general. In 2016, they seized over 670,000 dosage units of illegal medicines, but they only initiated 6 prosecutions.

Regulators usually have a range of powers, with prosecution typically being the option of last resort. Given that the abortion pill isn't taken on an ongoing basis, I can see why the HPRA might choose other options instead of prosecution.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Reason 3: Abortion pills, for delivery to Ireland, are being bulk purchased from the UK.

You're doing that thing again. You know, where you ask a question, then jump to a conclusion.

The Women on Web service involves taking 7 tablets in total, not just one. I'm unclear on how many tablets you actually get (are "spares" included, in case, eg you lose one?), but in any case I don't think a person gets to specify the number of tablets they can order. And I'd be surprised if a service that ask for a voluntary contribution would send out multiple packs willy nilly.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Reason 4: Almost no one knew of abortion pills in the Republic until recently

Given the possibility of a 14 year prison sentence for taking the pills, it's little surprise that it flew under the radar for as long as it did. Especially to people who either weren't considering abortion, or had the means to travel if they were.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Conclusion

Your conclusions are as faulty as your "reasons" that lead to them. You've asked questions, which is fair enough, but then jumped straight to a conclusion with no research, no investigation, and no evidence.

It's almost as if you came to your conclusions first, and then looked for facts that seemed to fit them.

NuMarvel · 02-02-2018 09:56PM

recedite wrote: »

Not at all. I suggested relaxing the 8th so that it only kicks in after a certain point, maybe after 9 weeks. Thereafter it would apply the same as before.

Meaning it still cause the same problems for anyone who's in week 10 or later of their pregnancy. It still places restrictions on their freedom to give consent, it still means people who need abortions for health reasons or because of FFA are traveling. It would help the majority of women, but it leaves a significant minority, the ones more likely to have abortions due to complications of some kind, high and dry.

Besides which, I can't think of another country that has abortion laws like that, i.e. on request up to some point before the end of the first trimester, and nothing afterwards unless you're going to die. There's a reason countries that offer abortion on request also include other grounds for when on request isn't an option

Hotblack Desiato · 02-02-2018 10:05PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Here are 4 reasons to be suspicious about the purchase of abortion pills online in the Rep. of Ireland:

Reason 1: Are abortion pills being delivered to fake addresses in the Rep. Of Ireland?

What evidence do you have of this?

Reason 2: Why are there no prosecutions of women who attempted to buy abortion pills online?

The political fallout would be disastrous for the government. There would be uproar at best, riots at worst and I'm not exaggerating.
That, and they've decided that locking up desperate vulnerable and yes still PREGNANT women is not compassionate or just, whatever the law says.

Reason 3: Abortion pills, for delivery to Ireland, are being bulk purchased from the UK

Women helping out vulnerable women by putting themselves at legal risk, rather than the vulnerable pregnant woman.
A highly altruistic act.

Reason 4: Almost no one knew of abortion pills in the Republic until recently

This is not true.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/fall-in-seizures-of-drugs-that-induce-abortion-1.1407015

This article is from 2013 and talks about the pills seized "in the last four years" - so importation has been happening since 2009 at the latest.

There have been stickers for Women On Web etc. on Dublin lampposts for years.

On releasing the Oireachtas Report on abortion in Dec 2017, even the chairperson of the committee Catherine Noone appeared on RTE news and said she had never even heard of abortion pills until recently.

The ignorance of a politician, living a very sheltered and privileged life as most of them do, is not proof of anything.
Catherine Noone has informed herself though and that's why she is now pro-choice. Same as the citizen's assembly did. Same as the Oireachtas committee did. The facts are pro-choice.

And that the reason this was done was to cover over the fact that the numbers of women travelling from the Rep. of Ireland to the UK for abortions has fallen in recent years

Better education, better use of contraception, better availability of the morning after pill. All of these are good things. Preventing a pregnancy scare turning into a crisis pregnancy is a good thing. Fewer abortions is a good thing.

But you would have to admit that the use of abortion pills is a factor here too.

2wsxcde3 · 03-02-2018 01:02AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The political fallout would be disastrous for the government. There would be uproar at best, riots at worst and I'm not exaggerating.
That, and they've decided that locking up desperate vulnerable and yes still PREGNANT women is not compassionate or just, whatever the law says.

Since when do the courts worry about political fallout? Gardai and the courts have an obligation to prosecute. The fact no woman has been prosecuted raises eyebrows that potentially very few women have actually tried to buy online in the knowledge it could lead to a 14 year prison sentence.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Women helping out vulnerable women by putting themselves at legal risk, rather than the vulnerable pregnant woman.
A highly altruistic act.

So you think "altruistic" women are bulk buying abortion pills and going around street corners offering them to pregnant women??? Considering that so few women in Ireland actually look for an abortion, it would be kinda hard to find a woman that would want the abortion pill and not be offended by such an approach.

In any case, such a theory wouldn't prove that these abortion pills were actually used. They could be lying in the "altruistic" womans cupboard at home, along with the other few hundred she bought online over the last few years (in trying to manipulate the number of pills being purchased by Irish women online). More likely, and it remains a possibility whether we like it or not (don't tell me some people wouldn't stoop so low), that these bulk buys were sent to post offices in the Rep. of Ireland (and then never collected) or sent to fake apartment numbers in apartment blocks (undeliverable addresses). Hense, no prosecutions possible.

The above Irish Times article stated (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/number-of-abortion-pills-seized-by-irish-customs-declines-1.3059156):

Nearly 550 pills were seized last year, according to figures from the Health Products Regulatory Authority, down from 850 in 2015 and 1,107 pills in 2014.

The numbers are all over the place. One has to ask the question; were the numbers so high in 2014 due to bulk buying in an attempt to trigger an abortion referendum after the The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.

2wsxcde3 · 03-02-2018 03:23AM

This brings up another interesting point:

Women on Web never told us abortion pills were being purchased in bulk. The only way we found this out was then these bulk purchases got caught coming through customs. Customs have given the game away.

If they hadn't been caught coming through customs, we would all be under the impression that each abortion pill was being purchased by one single woman.

03-02-2018 09:21AM

I don't really know if the demand for abortions is a relevant factor to the conversation about repealing the 8th.

As someone who is of the opinion that the ideal scenario is that those who absolutely need access to abortion should indeed have it, but also that the society should work to keep figures who absolutely need access to abortion are as low as they possibly can be (access to contraception, education, health care etc) , I see no argument against repeal provided by any of the discussion on the figures above.

As I've posted before, I would genuinely hope that not a single person in Ireland requires an amputation next year. But I also want them to legally have access to the facility if indeed they do.

NuMarvel · 03-02-2018 10:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't really know if the demand for abortions is a relevant factor to the conversation about repealing the 8th.

As someone who is of the opinion that the ideal scenario is that those who absolutely need access to abortion should indeed have it, but also that the society should work to keep figures who absolutely need access to abortion are as low as they possibly can be (access to contraception, education, health care etc) , I see no argument against repeal provided by any of the discussion on the figures above.

As I've posted before, I would genuinely hope that not a single person in Ireland requires an amputation next year. But I also want them to legally have access to the facility if indeed they do.

It was a significant factor for many people in the Assembly and the Committee. And I can see why, because it gets people thinking about the effects of the 8th. It gets people asking question if the ban is effective to begin with. It gets them thinking if they really want to enforce the ban, and the penalties that come with it, if they could make it effective.

This won't influence everyone's thinking, but I can how it would help many people understand it in a practical manner instead of just being theoretical.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-02-2018 07:47PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Since when do the courts worry about political fallout?

The courts don't decide whether a person gets charged or not. That's up to the DPP. However if nobody has been arrested in the first place, then the DPP has no potential case to get involved in.

Remember when one of the pro-choice organisations (ROSA I think) sent a bus around the country saying they would carry out consultations with a doctor on board and give out abortion pills? Pretty sure they were hoping to provoke an arrest and a prosecution to highlight the current law. Nothing happened. It's at least possible the Gardai were instructed by government, via the Minister for Justice, to turn a blind eye to this bus as an arrest would have been a huge publicity stunt for this organisation.

Gardai and the courts have an obligation to prosecute.

Gardai and the courts do not initiate a prosecution, the DPP does - and the DPP is under no obligation to prosecute anyone. The DPP has to be satisfied that there is enough evidence in a case to give a reasonable chance of a conviction. But like I said, no case has arisen for the DPP to decide on, because no arrests have been made.

The fact no woman has been prosecuted raises eyebrows that potentially very few women have actually tried to buy online in the knowledge it could lead to a 14 year prison sentence.

This is not the case. You are constructing what amounts to a conspiracy theory in order to make the facts fit your narrative.

Considering that so few women in Ireland actually look for an abortion

Citation needed. Please provide figures for precisely 'so few' women in Ireland seek abortion.

The figures I have seen put Ireland's abortion rate in the middle range of European countries which permit abortion. The 8th does very little to prevent abortions, it just makes them later, more expensive, more medically risky and more potentially traumatic.

it would be kinda hard to find a woman that would want the abortion pill and not be offended by such an approach.

What does this mean?

In any case, such a theory wouldn't prove that these abortion pills were actually used.

You are well into CT territory at this stage.

The numbers are all over the place. One has to ask the question; were the numbers so high in 2014 due to bulk buying in an attempt to trigger an abortion referendum after the The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.

You cannot really correlate numbers of seizures with the number of pills entering the country, a large proportion of them are not going to be detected and seized.

The numbers are irrelevant to the campaign to repeal the 8th. This campaign has been going on for years and it is political pressure coming from the public which forced the issue onto the politicians' agenda. If it was up to them, they wouldn't touch it with a bargepole - it took them over 20 years to legislate for the X case, after all. I think they are hoping, if the 8th is repealed and the proposed legislation is passed, that that will keep abortion off the political agenda for years to come. However, if the legislation passed is too restrictive then that will not happen and the issue will not just 'go away'.

end of the road · 04-02-2018 08:21PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Remember when one of the pro-choice organisations (ROSA I think) sent a bus around the country saying they would carry out consultations with a doctor on board and give out abortion pills? Pretty sure they were hoping to provoke an arrest and a prosecution to highlight the current law. Nothing happened. It's at least possible the Gardai were instructed by government, via the Minister for Justice, to turn a blind eye to this bus as an arrest would have been a huge publicity stunt for this organisation.

oh absolutely, always best to never give these organisations the oxygene they want and don't actually deserve.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is not the case. You are constructing what amounts to a conspiracy theory in order to make the facts fit your narrative.

well, we actually don't know that to be fair. it's probable his statement could be possible.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The figures I have seen put Ireland's abortion rate in the middle range of European countries which permit abortion. The 8th does very little to prevent abortions, it just makes them later, more expensive, more medically risky and more potentially traumatic.

it may do very little to prevent many abortions, but the things you mention such as the expence are possibly a deterrent to some people which is a good thing.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You are well into CT territory at this stage.

well, he may actually not be. in fact, i'd suggest what he is saying may in fact be very possible

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You cannot really correlate numbers of seizures with the number of pills entering the country, a large proportion of them are not going to be detected and seized.

of course some will get through, but not enough it seems which is a good thing.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The numbers are irrelevant to the campaign to repeal the 8th. This campaign has been going on for years and it is political pressure coming from the public which forced the issue onto the politicians' agenda. If it was up to them, they wouldn't touch it with a bargepole - it took them over 20 years to legislate for the X case, after all. I think they are hoping, if the 8th is repealed and the proposed legislation is passed, that that will keep abortion off the political agenda for years to come. However, if the legislation passed is too restrictive then that will not happen and the issue will not just 'go away'.

the numbers are actually relevant to this campaign. the issue is not going to go away even if the 8th is repealed. the reality is there are groups who will push and push for less and less restrictions and they will have quite a bit of public support. maybe not enough to remove those restrictions but enough to insure the issue doesn't go away.

2wsxcde3 · 04-02-2018 10:12PM

end of the road wrote: »

in fact, i'd suggest what he is saying may in fact be very possible

Thanks "end of the road". There is definitely something up here. And the spotlight is focusing on Women On Web (WOW). According to a British Medical Journal study on abortion pill use in Ireland:

WoW was the only telemedicine service operating in the Republic and Northern Ireland in 2010-13
(Source: http://www.bmj.com STUDY: Self reported outcomes and adverse events after medical abortion through online telemedicine: population based study in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)

and

To make a request, women fill out a consultation form on the WoW website. A doctor reviews the medical information on the form and, if clinical criteria are met, provides a prescription according to the WHO recommended dose regimen for medical abortion. Mifepristone and misoprostol are sent through the mail by a partner organisation.
(Source: http://www.bmj.com STUDY: Self reported outcomes and adverse events after medical abortion through online telemedicine: population based study in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)

So, it would appear that all abortion pills delivered to Ireland between 1st January 2010 and 31st Dec 2012 would have to be sent in individual packages to individual addresses in Ireland. This is because WOW was the only service operating in this timeframe and every consultation they did was certified by a doctor. There's just one problem. The pills were not going out in individual packets. According to an August 6th 2013 Irish Times article:

Last year (referring to 2012), 487 abortifacient tablets were seized, of which 471 contained misoprostol and 16 mifepristone, from 25 detentions. A total of 635 tablets were seized in 2011 from 28 detentions. In 2010, 671 pills were detained in 40 consignments while the figure for the previous year was 1,216 tablets from 62 consignments.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/medicines-board-warns-on-abortion-pills-after-250-seized-1.1485634?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmedicines-board-warns-on-abortion-pills-after-250-seized-1.1485634 )

This means WOW have some explaining to do. Thanks to customs, it would appear that WOW were sending out bulk shipments of abortion pills to Ireland between 1st Jan 2010 and 31st Dec 2012 (as they were the only ones shipping to Ireland in this timeframe). How could the WOW doctor sign off on these abortion pills when they were being sent out in bulk? That's impossible. The doctor was supposed to be examining individual consultation forms (at least thats's what they told the British medical Journal for their study). Critically, the data for the British Medical Journal study that WOW provided had the names of the individual women removed:

Anonymised data were provided to us by WoW.
(Source: http://www.bmj.com STUDY: Self reported outcomes and adverse events after medical abortion through online telemedicine: population based study in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)

So there is no way to check if these women are real that filled up the individual consultation forms.

Conclusion: The individual consultation forms WOW have are bogus (the same ones they sent to the British medical Journal for their study). Somewhere along the lines someone has faked these individual consultation forms. The WOW doctor might not even be aware of this. The doctor was simply receiving individual consultation forms and signing off on them. But when it came time to shipment, the abortion pills were being sent out in bulk, not individually. It looks like an attempt has been made to artificially inflate the numbers of women in Ireland seeking abortion pills online in order to trigger an abortion referendum in Ireland.

Its worth noting that two of the authors of the study, published in the British Medical Journal, were affiliated with Women on Web.

I think there is a scandal about to break...

end of the road · 04-02-2018 10:44PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Thanks "end of the road". There is definitely something up here. And the spotlight is focusing on Women On Web (WOW). According to a British Medical Journal study on abortion pill use in Ireland:

WoW was the only telemedicine service operating in the Republic and Northern Ireland in 2010-13
(Source: http://www.bmj.com STUDY: Self reported outcomes and adverse events after medical abortion through online telemedicine: population based study in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)

and

To make a request, women fill out a consultation form on the WoW website. A doctor reviews the medical information on the form and, if clinical criteria are met, provides a prescription according to the WHO recommended dose regimen for medical abortion. Mifepristone and misoprostol are sent through the mail by a partner organisation.
(Source: http://www.bmj.com STUDY: Self reported outcomes and adverse events after medical abortion through online telemedicine: population based study in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)

So, it would appear that all abortion pills delivered to Ireland between 1st January 2010 and 31st Dec 2012 would have to be sent in individual packages to individual addresses in Ireland. This is because WOW was the only service operating in this timeframe and every consultation they did was certified by a doctor. There's just one problem. The pills were not going out in individual packets. According to an August 6th 2013 Irish Times article:

Last year (referring to 2012), 487 abortifacient tablets were seized, of which 471 contained misoprostol and 16 mifepristone, from 25 detentions. A total of 635 tablets were seized in 2011 from 28 detentions. In 2010, 671 pills were detained in 40 consignments while the figure for the previous year was 1,216 tablets from 62 consignments.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/medicines-board-warns-on-abortion-pills-after-250-seized-1.1485634?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmedicines-board-warns-on-abortion-pills-after-250-seized-1.1485634 )

This means WOW have some explaining to do. Thanks to customs, it would appear that WOW were sending out bulk shipments of abortion pills to Ireland between 1st Jan 2010 and 31st Dec 2012 (as they were the only ones shipping to Ireland in this timeframe). How could the WOW doctor sign off on these abortion pills when they were being sent out in bulk? That's impossible. The doctor was supposed to be examining individual consultation forms (at least thats's what they told the British medical Journal for their study). Critically, the data for the British Medical Journal study that WOW provided had the names of the individual women removed:

Anonymised data were provided to us by WoW.
(Source: http://www.bmj.com STUDY: Self reported outcomes and adverse events after medical abortion through online telemedicine: population based study in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)

So there is no way to check if these women are real that filled up the individual consultation forms.

Conclusion: The individual consultation forms WOW have are bogus (the same ones they sent to the British medical Journal for their study). Somewhere along the lines someone has faked these individual consultation forms. The WOW doctor might not even be aware of this. The doctor was simply receiving individual consultation forms and signing off on them. But when it came time to shipment, the abortion pills were being sent out in bulk, not individually. It looks like an attempt has been made to artificially inflate the numbers of women in Ireland seeking abortion pills online in order to trigger an abortion referendum in Ireland.

Its worth noting that two of the authors of the study, published in the British Medical Journal, were affiliated with Women on Web.

I think there is a scandal about to break...

i think you could be right. hopefully this information will be brought into the public domain as this is very important to just be ignored. seems customs are having a great success at stopping the pills as well which is a good thing.

Zubeneschamali · 05-02-2018 10:04AM

end of the road wrote: »

oh absolutely, always best to never give these organisations the oxygene they want and don't actually deserve.

So now as well as abortion for Irish women being OK in the UK, you are OK with an abortion bus travelling around Ireland openly flouting the law?

What the hell is the point in having laws against abortion if you are against enforcing them?

seamus · 05-02-2018 10:20AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Since when do the courts worry about political fallout? Gardai and the courts have an obligation to prosecute.

Hah. Where have you been for the last 50 years?

The government have been interfering in Garda operations since their inception - the Garda Commissioner before last was effectively forced to resign by the Taoiseach. If you think that the Garda management don't take informal direction from Government ministers, you're very naive indeed.

The individual Garda on the ground has a certain amount of power to pursue prosecutions, but at a certain point they will hit resistance and their prosecutions can be binned without appeal.

The fact no woman has been prosecuted raises eyebrows that potentially very few women have actually tried to buy online in the knowledge it could lead to a 14 year prison sentence.

Perhaps. But given that the law requires one to have taken an abortifacient, the importation of pills alone wouldn't have a 14 year sentence.

Overall, you're making a lot of assumption.

For example, you've made a few big leaps in terms of the WOW data and Irish times article. For a start, you've assumed that WOW were the only source of imported pills in the timeframe. And therefore that their numbers were falsified.

It seems more likely - especially given that BMJ data is heavily scrutinised - that the majority of individual packets get through customs (as they would, they just look like letters), and the larger consignments that were seized, were imported by someone else.

Your flawed assumption that nobody but WOW were importing pills in 2010 means that your "Conclusion" is without foundation.

end of the road · 05-02-2018 03:01PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So now as well as abortion for Irish women being OK in the UK,

it's not actually okay, however we cannot viably stop people from using other european services.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

you are OK with an abortion bus travelling around Ireland openly flouting the law?

nope, i'm not okay with it. however if the law was enforced, i'd be of the opinion that those on that bus and those behind it would play the victim and cause trouble, so it's best not to give them ammunition and the oxygene. let them have their little stunt, safe in the knowledge customs are on to the issue of pill importation and all the ways in which it could be done, and are having success on the matter.

seamus wrote: »

Your flawed assumption that nobody but WOW were importing pills in 2010 means that your "Conclusion" is without foundation.

actualy, i'd suggest his assumption may not be one bit flawed and his Conclusion is with foundation.

Zubeneschamali · 05-02-2018 03:17PM

end of the road wrote: »

if the law was enforced, i'd be of the opinion that those on that bus and those behind it would play the victim and cause trouble, so it's best not to give them ammunition and the oxygene.

More hypocrisy. If the law cannot be enforced, it must be repealed.

NuMarvel · 05-02-2018 03:37PM

end of the road wrote: »

it's not actually okay, however we cannot viably stop people from using other european services.

Reminder: you said you'd vote against a measure that would make it easier to stop people. The issue isn't that we can't stop them, it's that you don't want to stop them.

end of the road · 05-02-2018 03:45PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

More hypocrisy. If the law cannot be enforced, it must be repealed.

not at all. it's perfectly fine to keep it.

NuMarvel wrote: »

Reminder: you said you'd vote against a measure that would make it easier to stop people. The issue isn't that we can't stop them, it's that you don't want to stop them.

it actually is that we can't stop them, because people are allowed to use services in other EU nations, and many others would likely be effected in some way by any such legislation to stop people from traveling to procure abortions, which would be unreasonable to me. it's about the bigger picture and other potential effects.

....... · 05-02-2018 03:52PM

This post has been deleted.

NuMarvel · 05-02-2018 04:02PM

end of the road wrote: »

it actually is that we can't stop them, because people are allowed to use services in other EU nations, and many others would likely be effected in some way by any such legislation to stop people from traveling to procure abortions, which would be unreasonable to me. it's about the bigger picture and other potential effects.

It's funny how people who are fine with pregnant women's rights being restricted oppose measures that might mean an inconvenience to anyone else.

Zubeneschamali · 05-02-2018 04:08PM

end of the road wrote: »

it's about the bigger picture and other potential effects.

In 1992 624,000 voted against the right to travel for an abortion. Those people really believed in the right to life of the unborn.

It seems they must all be dead now, no-one admits they are against the right to travel these days.

2wsxcde3 · 05-02-2018 07:25PM

seamus wrote: »

It seems more likely - especially given that BMJ data is heavily scrutinised - that the majority of individual packets get through customs (as they would, they just look like letters), and the larger consignments that were seized, were imported by someone else.

Your flawed assumption that nobody but WOW were importing pills in 2010 means that your "Conclusion" is without foundation.

According to a March 15th 2011 Irish Times article:

Women on Web is a non-profit website that supplies abortion pills to women in countries where there is no access to abortion. The organisation’s deliveries to Ireland have been disrupted by the IMB seizures and in a statement, it says: “We deeply regret that IMB is restricting a safe option and often the only safe option for women living in Ireland. “The IMB, by seizing the medicines, violates several rights, including legal right to privacy, the right to correspondence and the right to protect one’s health.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/abortion-by-post-1.573017 )

Sounds like WOW are annoyed that their shipments of abortion pills were being seized by customs ...the same shipments customs have said were in bulk shipments.

Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

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