Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Eire212 · 27-01-2018 06:08PM

Hi JC,

I guess no, a christian cannot vote for unlimited abortion in any case, then again, i'm not too familiar with how your religion dictates and limits your choices in life. It also sounds like you've answered your own question to be fair. "NO".

As a non believer, i feel abortion should be legal in ANY circumstance. So i say "YES"

Nick Park · 27-01-2018 06:09PM

david75 wrote: »

A foetus isn’t a child though. Are you confused about that? It would seem so.

That is your belief and opinion. One you seem determined to force upon unborn children while simultaneously lecturing others that their beliefs and opinions are irrelevant.

I don't think I'm the one who is confused here.

Nick Park · 27-01-2018 06:10PM

Eire212 wrote: »

Hi JC,

I guess no, a christian cannot vote for unlimited abortion in any case, then again, i'm not too familiar with how your religion dictates and limits your choices in life. It also sounds like you've answered your own question to be fair. "NO".

As a non believer, i feel abortion should be legal in ANY circumstance. So i say "YES"

Careful, you're likely to get accused of 'talking out of your behind' for expressing a view on something that, apparently, no-one in the country is talking about. :pac:

david75 · 27-01-2018 06:13PM

Nick Park wrote: »

So, your argument is that we should abandon our Constitutional say on the matter, and instead hand it to people who, in your own words, are cowards who will take any position based on whether it suits them rather than on matters of principle.

Do you see why some of us might find that argument less than convincing?

Where did I say abandon our constitutional say?
We’d get nothing done if left to the Irish govt and the redundant backward mentality of the church and it’s few remaining sheeple were allowed maintain Their cold unwanted grip on our society.

Leo’s non position is totally self serving. Protecting his hide politically.
That much is obvious to anyone with eyes. Then he gets upstaged by Michael Martin saying FF support repealing the 8th and giving it full throated support.
You’re really really screwing up if the weasel Martin is making you look bad.

We will repeal the eighth amendment. Women will have access to proper healthcare here in Ireland. The sky will not fall.

end of the road · 27-01-2018 06:18PM

david75 wrote: »

Where did I say abandon our constitutional say?
We’d get nothing done if left to the Irish govt and the redundant backward mentality of the church and it’s few remaining sheeple were allowed maintain Their cold unwanted grip on our society.

Leo’s non position is totally self serving. Protecting his hide politically.
That much is obvious to anyone with eyes. Then he gets upstaged by Michael Martin saying FF support repealing the 8th and giving it full throated support.
You’re really really screwing up if the weasel Martin is making you look bad.

We will repeal the eighth amendment. Women will have access to proper healthcare here in Ireland. The sky will not fall.

abortion for the most part is not health care. only in the circumstances i listed earlier is it health care, and that could be implemented via the existing law that allows for abortion in extreme circumstances. large scale industirial killing of the unborn will take place if unrestricted and on demand abortion is allowed, which will damage our society.

david75 · 27-01-2018 06:22PM

end of the road wrote: »

abortion for the most part is not health care. only in the circumstances i listed earlier is it health care, and that could be implemented via the existing law that allows for abortion in extreme circumstances. large scale industirial killing of the unborn will take place if unrestricted and on demand abortion is allowed, which will damage our society.

Large scale industrial killing. Cmon now. At least be realistic.

Nick Park · 27-01-2018 06:24PM

david75 wrote: »

Where did I say abandon our constitutional say?

When you advocated removing the clause in our constitution that prevents abortion on demand, and leaving the matter in the hands of politicians.

david75 · 27-01-2018 06:33PM

Nick Park wrote: »

When you advocated removing the clause in our constitution that prevents abortion on demand, and leaving the matter in the hands of politicians.

Yeah you read that Wrong. I said it shouldn’t have been in the constitution in the first place. We have that meddling bishop pulling devs strings to thank for that I believe.

Cabaal · 27-01-2018 07:08PM

Nick Park wrote: »

When you advocated removing the clause in our constitution that prevents abortion on demand, and leaving the matter in the hands of politicians.

The politicians that we the people elect,
Ireland is abnormal in relation to it including stuff in our constitution like we have, most normal country's legislate accordingly.

Rather then legislate we used the hammer approach which has resulted in horrific cases such as Miss P occurring.

You have to face it, this isn't about saving a fetus, this is about a smoke screen so it looks like you are stopping abortions. Anyone serious about actually stopping abortions would look for changes to the 13th amendment in relation to travel for abortions and would look for seriously heavy enforcement for abortion pill imports and use.

This isn't happening, if I decided to import 200 abortion pills tomorrow and I asked the newspaper to come along for the trip no Gardai would touch me. If I handed a pill to a women infront of the papers and she took it....again no Gardai would touch me.

I'm not making this up, we've already had the train from Dublin do exactly the above. Nobody was charged or even approached by the Gardai and no pro life groups looked for anybody to be charged either.

As I said, nothing more then a smoke screen to claim abortion fee, its nothing of the sort

end of the road · 27-01-2018 07:44PM

Cabaal wrote: »

This isn't happening, if I decided to import 200 abortion pills tomorrow and I asked the newspaper to come along for the trip no Gardai would touch me. If I handed a pill to a women infront of the papers and she took it....again no Gardai would touch me.

I'm not making this up, we've already had the train from Dublin do exactly the above. Nobody was charged or even approached by the Gardai and no pro life groups looked for anybody to be charged either.

there is little support for drug enforcement anyway abortion pills asside. most ordinary people caught with a bit of whatever are usually cautioned or given a very light sentence if bought to court, it's only the big dealers who get actual sentences. the gardai need to do little in relation to the abortion pills as customs are getting the vast majority that are being imported anyway. the people on the train were let have their little stunt because customs are having huge success. it was a way of the gardai trying to get some of the people back on side.

Cabaal · 27-01-2018 07:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

there is little support for drug enforcement anyway abortion pills asside. most ordinary people caught with a bit of whatever are usually cautioned or given a very light sentence if bought to court, it's only the big dealers who get actual sentences. the gardai need to do little in relation to the abortion pills as customs are getting the vast majority that are being imported anyway. the people on the train were let have their little stunt because customs are having huge success. it was a way of the gardai trying to get some of the people back on side.

Excuses excuses,
So, are you lobbying the government to charge and to properly charge people for import and use? After all they are used for "murder".

You've also not answer my question regarding if your wife, sister or cousin was raped and what you'd do.

end of the road · 27-01-2018 08:01PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Excuses excuses,
So, are you lobbying the government to charge and to properly charge people for import and use? After all they are used for "murder".

You've also not answer my question regarding if your wife, sister or cousin was raped and what you'd do.

i expect the laws of the land to be enforced without fear or favour, regardless of whether i agree with the law or not. it's not up to me to campaign for the forces of the state to do their job, they should do it. but as i said, customs are having great success in stopping abortion pills from getting into the country. they won't get them all but i believe they are getting a massive percentage of them.

Cabaal · 27-01-2018 08:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

i expect the laws of the land to be enforced without fear or favour, regardless of whether i agree with the law or not. it's not up to me to campaign for the forces of the state to do their job, they should do it. but as i said, customs are having great success in stopping abortion pills from getting into the country. they won't get them all but i believe they are getting a massive percentage of them.

Good to hear you like to see laws enforced and followed, however it seems you only selectively like our laws which is an awful shame.

if your wife, sister, cousin was pregnant from rape and she wanted the rapists fetus out of her. Are you honestly saying you would force her to go to term against her wishes and ignoring the mental health issues you will create by putting her through such a continued violation of her body against her wishes?

What if she imported some abortion pills and took them (as many women do) are you going to report her to the Gardai since she broke the law. After all you want to see laws enforced.

end of the road · 27-01-2018 08:22PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Good to hear you like to see laws enforced and followed, however it seems you only selectively like our laws which is an awful shame.

if your wife, sister, cousin was pregnant from rape and she wanted the rapists fetus out of her. Are you honestly saying you would force her to go to term against her wishes and ignoring the mental health issues you will create by putting her through such a continued violation of her body against her wishes?

What if she imported some abortion pills and took them (as many women do) are you going to report her to the Gardai since she broke the law. After all you want to see laws enforced.

i wouldn't be forcing anyone to do anything. the fact is one does not have a right to kill the unborn unless their life is in danger, they are under threat of permanent injury or disability, or the baby cannot be viably caried to term or will not live to term.

Kiwi in IE · 27-01-2018 08:24PM

david75 wrote: »

Ah no I get that. It’s just screwed up even in general elections that it suits the establishment MO to have people totally disinterested and not engaging.
We have the youngest population in Europe and among the lowest turnouts by them in elections and referenda.
That’s really alarming.

Possibly because they are held on weekdays, during term time and one cannot vote outside of their electorate! Intentional at all? People who study and commute are grossly disadvantaged from what I’ve seen of Irish elections.

david75 · 27-01-2018 08:30PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Possibly because they are held on weekdays, during term time and one cannot vote outside of their electorate! Intentional at all? People who study and commute are grossly disadvantaged from what I’ve seen of Irish elections.

As I said. It’s very carefully set up that way and changing it doesn’t suit the powers that be. Personally I think voting should be mandatory and fines for anyone not doing their duty but that’s another story.

Cabaal · 27-01-2018 08:31PM

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't be forcing anyone to do anything. the fact is one does not have a right to kill the unborn unless their life is in danger, they are under threat of permanent injury or disability, or the baby cannot be viably caried to term or will not live to term.

So you'd leave your wife, sister, cousin etc travel or take abortion pills for an abortion and you wouldn't try force them to go to term?

You also wouldn't report them for importing or taking illegal abortion pills?

end of the road · 27-01-2018 08:32PM

david75 wrote: »

As I said. It’s very carefully set up that way and changing it doesn’t suit the powers that be. Personally I think voting should be mandatory and fines for anyone not doing their duty but that’s another story.

wouldn't be viable, would take up to much court time and would be costly, it would be undemocratic also. but yeah, certainly worth a thread elsewhere sometime

Cabaal · 27-01-2018 08:37PM

end of the road wrote: »

wouldn't be viable, would take up to much court time and would be costly

Works in Australia so it can certainly be done so to say its not viable is incorrect

it would be undemocratic also.

Thats rather amusing coming from the same person who has previously suggested that a democratic vote should be ignored because it doesn't fit your viewpoint.

david75 · 27-01-2018 08:44PM

end of the road wrote: »

wouldn't be viable, would take up to much court time and would be costly, it would be undemocratic also. but yeah, certainly worth a thread elsewhere sometime

We live in a republic not a true democracy. But mandatory voting will never ever even be a topic for discussion in Ireland. It would not suit any of the established parties to change the way of doing things.
Imagine an Ireland where we weren’t trapped in the endless awful cycle of fianna failure and fascist Fine Gael?

One can dream.

end of the road · 27-01-2018 08:45PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Works in Australia so it can certainly be done so to say its not viable is incorrect

Thats rather amusing coming from the same person who has previously suggested that a democratic vote should be ignored because it doesn't fit your viewpoint.

well, from what little i have read on the subject, the only way it actually works in australia, is that it makes a fantastic cash cow. ireland could never afford such an undemocratic law.
i don't believe there is anything amusing about suggesting something to be undemocratic, while suggesting the ignoring of the result of a vote that allows the removal of rights from the unborn or any other grouping in society.

Eire212 · 27-01-2018 10:30PM

Nick Park wrote: »

Careful, you're likely to get accused of 'talking out of your behind' for expressing a view on something that, apparently, no-one in the country is talking about. :pac:

I don't get ye at all there. I'm just saying it as real as it is.

ABC101 · 27-01-2018 11:35PM

david75 wrote: »

A foetus isn’t a child though. Are you confused about that? It would seem so.

Ever heard a pregnant woman refer to the being inside her as a fetus?

When a pregnant woman visits her doctor for a check up, does the doctor refer to the being as a fetus?

No to both.

Doctors and pregnant women refer to the being as a baby, not a fetus.

Leo Varadker made this point some time ago.

david75 · 28-01-2018 04:30AM

ABC101 wrote: »

Ever heard a pregnant woman refer to the being inside her as a fetus?

When a pregnant woman visits her doctor for a check up, does the doctor refer to the being as a fetus?

No to both.

Doctors and pregnant women refer to the being as a baby, not a fetus.

Leo Varadker made this point some time ago.

Ever heard of a pro lifer looking after a baby the Moment it appeared in the world and scooping it away and caring about it only until it was cute enough to selll that precious baby to the richest person available as soon as it was cute enough?
Yes we have actually heard of those people.

They were called nuns. And they literally stole babes from their mothers and sold them away for their own avericious ends. Jealousy they could never have children. And greed for never enough money.

stop with your every life is precious bull****. Your hypocrisy is hanging out

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 28-01-2018 06:48AM

david75 wrote:

They were called nuns. And they literally stole babes from their mothers and sold them away for their own avericious ends. Jealousy they could never have children. And greed for never enough money.

Of course you are correct. However, this scandalous behaviour was committed only by a minority of so called nuns. The vast majority of the nuns are good and holy.

ABC101 · 28-01-2018 10:13AM

david75 wrote: »

Ever heard of a pro lifer looking after a baby the Moment it appeared in the world and scooping it away and caring about it only until it was cute enough to selll that precious baby to the richest person available as soon as it was cute enough?
Yes we have actually heard of those people.

They were called nuns. And they literally stole babes from their mothers and sold them away for their own avericious ends. Jealousy they could never have children. And greed for never enough money.

stop with your every life is precious bull****. Your hypocrisy is hanging out

I merely pointed out that expectant mothers / doctors / midwives etc refer to the unborn as a baby not a fetus. I’ve never personally asked a pregnant mother “how’s your fetus doing?”.

I also credited Leo Varadker as stating this publically.

WRT some historical adoption instances I fail to understand the relevance to this debate. Adoption is not the same as abortion.

If you are unable to discuss in a civil manner various topics of debate then perhaps you should be posting / blogging elsewhere.

pilly · 28-01-2018 10:29AM

end of the road wrote:

pro-lifers are very likely part of that campaign.

Proof please. Iona institute for example, does <snip> all for children.

pilly · 28-01-2018 10:45AM

end of the road wrote:

the question itself never mentioned abortion on request. so for all we know it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of. most of the people who claim to be christian in ireland actually aren't anyway so it cannot be gauged how many actual christians would be in favour of abortion on demand. i'd suspect very few. abortion in limited circumstances may be a different story.

Wrong, read the question again and stop telling lies.

smacl · 28-01-2018 10:46AM

ABC101 wrote: »

I merely pointed out that expectant mothers / doctors / midwives etc refer to the unborn as a baby not a fetus. I’ve never personally asked a pregnant mother “how’s your fetus doing?”.

I also credited Leo Varadker as stating this publically.

WRT some historical adoption instances I fail to understand the relevance to this debate. Adoption is not the same as abortion.

If you are unable to discuss in a civil manner various topics of debate then perhaps you should be posting / blogging elsewhere.

Expectant mothers anticipating a baby and their doctors / midwives will talk about a baby as that is what they're planning and hoping for. A pregnant woman who does not want to have a baby, not so much. I would assert that for a woman who chooses to have an abortion, there isn't nor has there been any baby. That you or anyone else might believe differently is no more or less than your belief, it is not a matter of fact. Do you in all honesty consider the woman who has an abortion to be a murderer? Is have an abortion, by your way of thinking, the exact same crime as murdering a child?

pilly · 28-01-2018 10:46AM

end of the road wrote:

the question itself never mentioned abortion on request. so for all we know it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of. most of the people who claim to be christian in ireland actually aren't anyway so it cannot be gauged how many actual christians would be in favour of abortion on demand. i'd suspect very few. abortion in limited circumstances may be a different story.

Please provide proof that most people who claim to be christan aren't?

Really sick of you making stuff up.

Lies.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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