Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C · 25-01-2018 10:02PM

david75 wrote: »

Wow. The fake Iceland statistic has been disproven officially and repeatedly even by the Icelandic government. As has the endless fake Scandinavian staitsitics you’re probably about to post.

Link please??

david75 wrote: »

Deeper question I suppose is if a couple find out the foetus is going to be DS or further, incompatible with life in some regard, FFA, is it not their decision and their choice alone whether or not they want to put themselves and the potential infant through that pain and suffering? They should be allowed the option to determine what is best in their situation.
The birth process itself is horrifically painful for even a normal baby, it is worse for a child that won’t live long after the fact.

I’m not ok forcing a mother to carry a baby to term that would endure immense physical suffering and agony upon birth only to die shortly thereafter.

I can’t imagine any good Christian would want any infant to go through that. Much less the poor mother then watching them die.

There is a very significant difference between an unborn child that will be unviable ex utero and a beautiful loving DS child ... and your lumping them together is both very sinister and quite disgusting.

J C · 25-01-2018 10:07PM

Cabaal wrote: »

So its only when it "looks" human that you care so much, what about at 3 weeks, is this also unmistakably Human?

That is an 8 week old fetus ... and s/he is starting to look Human, even back that early.

SusieBlue · 25-01-2018 10:08PM

end of the road wrote: »

the icelandic government aren't going to admit to such an evil statistic.

FFA is a different situation to what is being proposed here. if abortions were just availible for FFA or other extreme issues only then there would be large scale for both repealing the 8th and abortion in those circumstances. but as it will be abortion without reason then that has to be faught against. ds does not fit into extreme circumstances in itself.

Have you had any luck finding the link to prove that women only think they need abortions, but actually don’t?

This must be my 5th (6th?) time asking to see your basis for making this claim so if you don’t reply to this, I’m just going to presume you made it up and it’s a lie.

end of the road · 25-01-2018 10:14PM

david75 wrote: »

You have repeatedly almost endlessly been told.

We

Are

Not

Voting

On

Abortion

On

Demand.

It isn’t that difficult. You have been told several times.

This is not what this referendum is about.

This is not the question that will appear on the ballot.

You seem to be confused about the entire thing.

i'm not confused at all. i know exactly what we are voting on. however i also know why there is a huge wish for the referendum.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Have you had any luck finding the link to prove that women only think they need abortions, but actually don’t?

This must be my 5th (6th?) time asking to see your basis for making this claim so if you don’t reply to this, I’m just going to presume you made it up and it’s a lie.

you can think what you like, you do that anyway even when your claims about me are proven wrong, which they always are. there is no need for abortion on demand in ireland.

J C · 25-01-2018 10:21PM

uptherebels wrote: »

any source for that claim?:rolleyes:

From your source https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/iceland-downs-syndrome-no-children-born-first-country-world-screening-a7895996.html
it says one or two babies with down syndrome are born in iceland each year.
Now according to the WHO the incidence of DS is between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 1100 for live births worldwide
http://www.who.int/genomics/public/geneticdiseases/en/index1.html
Iceland having a population of of approx 337,000
and a birth rate of 13.7 per 1000 population https://www.indexmundi.com/iceland/birth_rate.html
that gives on average incidence of around 4.
Giving iceland a birth rate of 1 to 2 instead of approx 4
So do you have any source for the number of abortions that were carried out in iceland each year because of DS?

Here is a CBS article on the subject. Read it and weep for these lovely children, killed as a result of industrial-scale screening ... and unlimited abortion !!!
... coming to Ireland, too, if the 8th is removed.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/
Quote:-
Since prenatal screening tests were introduced in Iceland in the early 2000s, the vast majority of women -- close to 100 percent -- who received a positive test for Down syndrome terminated their pregnancy.

While the tests are optional, the government states that all expectant mothers must be informed about availability of screening tests, which reveal the likelihood of a child being born with Down syndrome. Around 80 to 85 percent of pregnant women choose to take the prenatal screening test, according to Landspitali University Hospital in Reykjavik."

"With a population of around 330,000, Iceland has on average just one or two children born with Down syndrome per year, sometimes after their parents received inaccurate test results. "

""Babies with Down syndrome are still being born in Iceland," said Hulda Hjartardottir, head of the Prenatal Diagnosis Unit at Landspitali University Hospital, where around 70 percent of Icelandic children are born. "Some of them were low risk in our screening test, so we didn't find them in our screening."

"Geneticist Kari Stefansson is the founder of deCODE Genetics, a company that has studied nearly the entire Icelandic population's genomes. He has a unique perspective on the advancement of medical technology. "My understanding is that we have basically eradicated, almost, Down syndrome from our society -- that there is hardly ever a child with Down syndrome in Iceland anymore," he said."

Cabaal · 25-01-2018 10:28PM

J C wrote: »

That is an 8 week old fetus ... and s/he is starting to look Human, even back that early.

Thats pretty amazing JC especially as its an elephant fetus
:rolleyes:

Do you think the 8th should apply to elephants?

SusieBlue · 25-01-2018 10:36PM

end of the road wrote: »

you can think what you like, you do that anyway even when your claims about me are proven wrong, which they always are. there is no need for abortion on demand in ireland.

Then by all means, please, prove me wrong? Please show me your factual evidence this proves your claim that women who have abortions think they need them, but actually don’t?

Simply making blanket statements about there being ‘no need’ is not good enough. Saying ‘it’s just a fact’ is not good enough.
You need to show your proof for making such significant claims.

And FYI I have yet to recall you proving me wrong on anything.

uptherebels · 25-01-2018 10:47PM

J C wrote: »

Here is a CBS article on the subject. Read it and weep for these lovely children, killed as a result of industrial-scale screening ... and unlimited abortion !!!
... coming to Ireland, too, if the 8th is removed.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/
Quote:-
Since prenatal screening tests were introduced in Iceland in the early 2000s, the vast majority of women -- close to 100 percent -- who received a positive test for Down syndrome terminated their pregnancy.

While the tests are optional, the government states that all expectant mothers must be informed about availability of screening tests, which reveal the likelihood of a child being born with Down syndrome. Around 80 to 85 percent of pregnant women choose to take the prenatal screening test, according to Landspitali University Hospital in Reykjavik."

"With a population of around 330,000, Iceland has on average just one or two children born with Down syndrome per year, sometimes after their parents received inaccurate test results. "

""Babies with Down syndrome are still being born in Iceland," said Hulda Hjartardottir, head of the Prenatal Diagnosis Unit at Landspitali University Hospital, where around 70 percent of Icelandic children are born. "Some of them were low risk in our screening test, so we didn't find them in our screening."

"Geneticist Kari Stefansson is the founder of deCODE Genetics, a company that has studied nearly the entire Icelandic population's genomes. He has a unique perspective on the advancement of medical technology. "My understanding is that we have basically eradicated, almost, Down syndrome from our society -- that there is hardly ever a child with Down syndrome in Iceland anymore," he said."

so that's a no to having any sources?

I have shown your their average DS birth rate compared to the global average. Not that far out.In 2009 it was 3 to a global average of 4 for their population size- so "that there is hardly ever a child with Down syndrome in Iceland anymore," is hardly accurate much like much of the unsupported claims you post.

So ill ask again do you have any sources for the number of abortion carried out for DS in iceland?

J C · 25-01-2018 11:07PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats pretty amazing JC especially as its an elephant fetus
:rolleyes:

Do you think the 8th should apply to elephants?

I knew it certainly wasn't a 12 week old Human Fetus ... it looks very like an 8 week old Human fetus.

pregnancy-week-8-brain-nerve-cells_square.jpg,qwidth=384.pagespeed.ce.6AUsw9fHf9.jpg

pregnancy-week-8-brain-nerve-cells_square.jpg,qwidth=384.pagespeed.ce.6AUsw9fHf9.jpg

It was the angle of the photo that threw me off ... and I assumed your bona fides ... more fool me!!!.

... and you know very well that the 8th obviously doesn't apply to an Elephant fetus ... but anybody deliberately inducing an abortion in an Elephant could face serious legal consequences for killing the young of a protected engangered species.
... which is more than can be said about Human unborn in many of these same countries!!!

J C · 25-01-2018 11:10PM

uptherebels wrote: »

so that's a no to having any sources?

I have shown your their average DS birth rate compared to the global average. Not that far out.In 2009 it was 3 to a global average of 4 for their population size- so "that there is hardly ever a child with Down syndrome in Iceland anymore," is hardly accurate much like much of the unsupported claims you post.

I gave specific quotes from leading professionals in Iceland , published by CBS, one of the most reputable public news broadcasters in the World ... what more do you want?

Are you disagreeing with the quotes?

uptherebels wrote: »

So ill ask again do you have any sources for the number of abortion carried out for DS in iceland?

Which part of the following quotes do you not understand/accept ... and why?

Since prenatal screening tests were introduced in Iceland in the early 2000s, the vast majority of women -- close to 100 percent -- who received a positive test for Down syndrome terminated their pregnancy.

While the tests are optional, the government states that all expectant mothers must be informed about availability of screening tests, which reveal the likelihood of a child being born with Down syndrome. Around 80 to 85 percent of pregnant women choose to take the prenatal screening test, according to Landspitali University Hospital in Reykjavik."

"Geneticist Kari Stefansson is the founder of deCODE Genetics, a company that has studied nearly the entire Icelandic population's genomes. He has a unique perspective on the advancement of medical technology. "My understanding is that we have basically eradicated, almost, Down syndrome from our society -- that there is hardly ever a child with Down syndrome in Iceland anymore," he said."

david75 · 25-01-2018 11:29PM

J C wrote: »

Link please??

There is a very significant difference between an unborn child that will be unviable ex utero and a beautiful loving DS child ... and your lumping them together is both very sinister and quite disgusting.

Eeehhhh I think you’ll find it’s the so called pro life campaign that is ‘lumping them together’ but yes it is sinister and disgusting that they’d do such a thing.

david75 · 25-01-2018 11:36PM

J C wrote: »

I knew it certainly wasn't a 12 week old Human Fetus ... it looks very like an 8 week old Human fetus.

It was the angle of the photo that threw me off ... and I assumed your bona fides ... more fool me!!!.

... and you know very well that the 8th obviously doesn't apply to an Elephant fetus ... but anybody deliberately inducing an abortion in an Elephant could face serious legal consequences for killing the young of a protected engangered species.
... which is more than can be said about Human unborn in many of these same countries!!!

Do you understand what the term computer generated image means?
Let’s assume (safely) that you don’t.

The above pics are computer generated images. Artificially generated in photoshop or something like it.

If that was the tech available would not every woman in the world be posting such glowing warm well lit photos of her pregnancy /foetus, for one and all to see?

Medical imaging tech is good.

Sad to say it’s not this good and probably never will be.

Stop posting miseleading take pictures. It undermines your point.

Cabaal · 25-01-2018 11:37PM

J C wrote: »

It was the angle of the photo that threw me off .

Sure it did, you keep telling yourself that
:rolleyes:

Also why do you keep using CGI graphic images, they aren't real representations of what a fetus looks like in the womb by any long shot.
I'd suggest using 3D ultrasound for more accurate images

david75 · 25-01-2018 11:39PM

Be fair. A human and an elephant are almost identical.even when they’re just a clump of cells smaller than a grain of rice. And the lighting was tricky too.
How was JC to know??

uptherebels · 25-01-2018 11:45PM

J C wrote: »

I gave specific quotes from leading professionals in Iceland , published by CBS, one of the most reputable public news broadcasters in the World ... what more do you want?

Are you disagreeing with the quotes?

Which part of the following quote do you not understand? :-

"Geneticist Kari Stefansson is the founder of deCODE Genetics, a company that has studied nearly the entire Icelandic population's genomes. He has a unique perspective on the advancement of medical technology. "My understanding is that we have basically eradicated, almost, Down syndrome from our society -- that there is hardly ever a child with Down syndrome in Iceland anymore," he said."

And what part of they have 1,2,3 down syndrome children born each year when a population of their size would on average have approx 4 leads you to believe that the above quote is accurate?

CBS didn't have any actual figures for the number aborted either.
The only sourced info they have in relation to numbers is " Around 80 to 85 percent of pregnant women choose to take the prenatal screening test, according to Landspitali University Hospital in Reykjavik." but then doesn't say how many actually had a positive result nor actually had a termination.

Now I wonder why they would say "Since prenatal screening tests were introduced in Iceland in the early 2000s, the vast majority of women -- close to 100 percent -- who received a positive test for Down syndrome terminated their pregnancy" and provide no source or link for this despite providing sources for figures in relation to other countries?

J C · 25-01-2018 11:48PM

david75 wrote: »

Be fair. A human and an elephant are almost identical.even when they’re just a clump of cells smaller than a grain of rice. And the lighting was tricky too.
How was JC to know??

All terrestrial mammal foetuses are somewhat similar at the very earliest stages of development ... but they rapidly differentiate to become typical of their species.

... but even at 8 weeks, the two are starting to becoming different ... and by 12 weeks, the Human fetus is distinctly Human

J C · 25-01-2018 11:59PM

uptherebels wrote: »

And what part of they have 1,2,3 down syndrome children born each year when a population of their size would on average have approx 4 leads you to believe that the above quote is accurate?

CBS didn't have any actual figures for the number aborted either.
The only sourced info they have in relation to numbers is " Around 80 to 85 percent of pregnant women choose to take the prenatal screening test, according to Landspitali University Hospital in Reykjavik." but then doesn't say how many actually had a positive result nor actually had a termination.

Now I wonder why they would say "Since prenatal screening tests were introduced in Iceland in the early 2000s, the vast majority of women -- close to 100 percent -- who received a positive test for Down syndrome terminated their pregnancy" and provide no source or link for this despite providing sources for figures in relation to other countries?

The people in the know ... who are providing the abortions are saying that whever an Icelandic woman gets a DS diagnosis they almost invariably go for an abortion.

England has a bigger population ... and is more similar to Ireland, in many ways.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/19/church-england-set-lobby-government-rising-downs-syndrome-abortions/

Quote:-
"Pointing to figures showing an increase in abortions due to Down's Syndrome, he said that in 2010 there were 482 terminations of pregnancy because of a diagnosis of the condition. In 2016 there were 706. During the same period there was a fall of 6,000 in terms of overall terminations. "

"Dawn McAvoy, co-founder of pro-life group Both Lives Matter, welcomed the announcement.
"Undoubtedly there has been a silence on the Protestant denominations, more than the Roman Catholic church so we would welcome any statement that would advocate the humanity of the pre-born child and value their life," she said. "

end of the road · 26-01-2018 12:23AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Then by all means, please, prove me wrong? Please show me your factual evidence this proves your claim that women who have abortions think they need them, but actually don’t?

Simply making blanket statements about there being ‘no need’ is not good enough. Saying ‘it’s just a fact’ is not good enough.
You need to show your proof for making such significant claims.

And FYI I have yet to recall you proving me wrong on anything.

oh i have. proved you wrong on everything, debunked all your claims (which for a good while were mostly about me rather then anything in relation to the debate)

SusieBlue · 26-01-2018 12:33AM

end of the road wrote: »

oh i have. proved you wrong on everything, debunked all your claims (which for a good while were mostly about me rather then anything in relation to the debate)

Just as I thought, you have no proof. A baseless claim which you are unable to back up.

david75 · 26-01-2018 01:04AM

J C wrote: »

All terrestrial mammal foetuses are somewhat similar at the very earliest stages of development ... but they rapidly differentiate to become typical of their species.

... but even at 8 weeks, the two are starting to becoming different ... and by 12 weeks, the Human fetus is distinctly Human

So from that I’ll take it you’re a vegan who opposes the murder of all animals but especially mammals.

smacl · 26-01-2018 10:14AM

A new poll published in today's Irish Times shows the majority of Irish people are in favour of allowing abortion on request up to 12 weeks. The majority is large enough that it would also imply the majority of Irish Christians take this stance, which seems to answer the opening question rather clearly. From the article

They were then asked: “Will you vote to change the Constitution so that the Government can legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks, or will you vote not to change the Constitution?”

A clear majority of all voters – 56 per cent – said they would vote in favour of the constitutional change, with 29 per cent not in favour. Fifteen per cent said they did not know or offered no opinion.

....... · 26-01-2018 10:34AM

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Cabaal · 26-01-2018 01:27PM

J C wrote: »

These beautiful loving children need protection before birth.

UK abortion law allows them to be killed right up to the point of birth.
The 8th currently protects them in Ireland.

"Children" are pretty safe, if somebody murders a child they will be charged accordingly.

I think you'll find the 8th gives rights to a fetus, not a child.

However, as for your claim that the 8th protects a fetus. I think you'll find you are mistaken.

Find my a case where any women has been charged for importing or using abortion pills in this country, keeping in mind that we even had a very public media event with abortion pills being imported via the train not too long ago and no Gardai dared touch any women at the event.

You can't find such a case for me because the 8th has done nothing to stop the use of these pills.

The 8th is a smoke screen and it creates situations where a brain dead women has to be kept on life support because she has pregnant but the doctors fear the 8th so much they keep her on life support anyway to keep the fetus alive even when the women's brain is decomposing.

We need to properly legislate so an awful situation like the above should not be allowed happen and the wishes of the women's family and her partner are listened to without them having to go to court.

Cabaal · 26-01-2018 01:32PM

J C wrote: »

... but even at 8 weeks, the two are starting to becoming different ...

But as you said yourself, an elephant does look like a human at 8 weeks.
So I guess, even with your own vast experience you can't tell the difference

end of the road · 26-01-2018 03:06PM

smacl wrote: »

A new poll published in today's Irish Times shows the majority of Irish people are in favour of allowing abortion on request up to 12 weeks. The majority is large enough that it would also imply the majority of Irish Christians take this stance, which seems to answer the opening question rather clearly. From the article

the question itself never mentioned abortion on request. so for all we know it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of. most of the people who claim to be christian in ireland actually aren't anyway so it cannot be gauged how many actual christians would be in favour of abortion on demand. i'd suspect very few. abortion in limited circumstances may be a different story.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

actually there is no evidence they favour unlimited abortion as that wasn't the question asked. it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of but the question was ambiguous. as a republican i will never except the unquestioned and on demand killing of the unborn in my country.

Cabaal wrote: »

"Children" are pretty safe, if somebody murders a child they will be charged accordingly.

I think you'll find the 8th gives rights to a fetus, not a child.

However, as for your claim that the 8th protects a fetus. I think you'll find you are mistaken.

Find my a case where any women has been charged for importing or using abortion pills in this country, keeping in mind that we even had a very public media event with abortion pills being imported via the train not too long ago and no Gardai dared touch any women at the event.

You can't find such a case for me because the 8th has done nothing to stop the use of these pills.

The 8th is a smoke screen and it creates situations where a brain dead women has to be kept on life support because she has pregnant but the doctors fear the 8th so much they keep her on life support anyway to keep the fetus alive even when the women's brain is decomposing.

We need to properly legislate so an awful situation like the above should not be allowed happen and the wishes of the women's family and her partner are listened to without them having to go to court.

we can legislate for that without having to bring in abortion on demand, which isn't needed in ireland due to it's availability in the uk.

Delirium · 26-01-2018 03:12PM

end of the road wrote: »

the question itself never mentioned abortion on request. so for all we know it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of. most of the people who claim to be christian in ireland actually aren't anyway so it cannot be gauged how many actual christians would be in favour of abortion on demand. i'd suspect very few. abortion in limited circumstances may be a different story.

From the linked article:

Poll respondents were told that it was likely the Government would seek to legislate for abortion to be available on request up to 12 weeks. They were also told that in order to legislate for this, the Constitution needed to be changed in a referendum.

They were then asked: “Will you vote to change the Constitution so that the Government can legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks, or will you vote not to change the Constitution?”

SusieBlue · 26-01-2018 03:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

we can legislate for that without having to bring in abortion on demand, which isn't needed in ireland due to it's availability in the uk.

I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you.

Writing off the problem saying it isn't needed because its available in the UK does not decrease the amount of abortions had.

It just exports the problem. I repeat, IT JUST EXPORTS THE PROBLEM.

You have yet to prove that abortion isn't needed in Ireland, I haven't seen you post one link to back up your opinion.

....... · 26-01-2018 03:18PM

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end of the road · 26-01-2018 03:19PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don't know how many times this has to be explained to you.

Writing off the problem saying it isn't needed because its available in the UK does not decrease the amount of abortions had.

It just exports the problem. I repeat, IT JUST EXPORTS THE PROBLEM.

You have yet to prove that abortion isn't needed in Ireland, I haven't seen you post one link to back up your opinion.

nothing is being exported. people are availing of something they want elsewhere. lots of things people want won't be availible in the country.

....... · 26-01-2018 03:20PM

This post has been deleted.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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