Homeopathy; the new wallet inspector.

23-01-2018 9:53am

That Dara Ó Briain sketch, still hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHVVKAKWXcg

Losty Dublin · 23-01-2018 9:56am

Ipso wrote: »

and the hippies take the credit.

What sort of credit; Visa or MasterCard?

evolving_doors · 23-01-2018 9:57am

_Dara_ wrote: »

I’d never buy into homeopathy despite having terminal cancer. But I’ve seen firsthand the amount of intelligent people in my position who will try anything. Just put yourself in their shoes. Their life is now measured in months rather than years and decades. Many have small children. It’s easy to understand why they would just think “I’m already fooked. Why not give this a go?”. I have so little regard for the snake oil salesmen who at best give people false hope and at worst may shorten the person’s life even further.

I suppose it's the same as the crystals, chiropractors and angels crowd. They just believe in the schlock themselves. I remember talking to a colleague before who brought a young infant to a chiropractor to have it's spine manipulated to cure colic...(needless to say the child was cured in a week:rolleyes:)I wish they'd just stuck with the diluted homeopathic stuff.
What's sad is the odd few science teachers who would believe in it.
But when you're desperate I'd say you'd try anything.
if I was in the same position myself I might be necking back anything I could find.

Losty Dublin · 23-01-2018 9:58am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Hang on - is she JUST using homeopathy, or is she using it alongside conventional medicine and treatments?

Honestly? I was too scared to ask

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-01-2018 9:58am

_Dara_ wrote: »

I’d never buy into homeopathy despite having terminal cancer. But I’ve seen firsthand the amount of intelligent people in my position who will try anything.

The other thing about intelligent people, which placebo and charlatan medicine takes advantage of, is that they tend to notice patterns more often. Even thinking they have spotted patterns where no pattern actually exists.

When one is sick, we tend to think of the suffering involved as linear. That is we get worse and worse and worse..... hit a peak.... and get better and better and better.

Actually what happens is more cyclical. We get worse and better and worse again in a cycle. And it is at the peak of such cycles that we are more prone to desperately "try anything". But because we are at the peak of the cycle when we try the alternative "medicine"..... but due to the cycle being at it's peak.... we get better. We were going to get a bit better then anyway.

And intelligent people will notice that. Then when their suffering peaks again, they say "well it worked last time...." and take the alternative "medicine" a second time and.... yep.... they feel much better.

In medicine / epidemiology we refer to this effect as "return to the mean".

And that's it. You now have a convert and another "testimonial" for the charlatans selling water at inflated prices to use as "proof" that their drug works.

Jawgap · 23-01-2018 10:01am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually very surprisingly that is not true. It turns out a lot of placebo will work EVEN IF the person receiving it is told that it is a placebo that does nothing.

Of course it helps a lot if people believe in the efficacy of the placebo. But that placebo works even without belief is something that has been demonstrated.

Of course this also affects antibiotics and other drugs too. While such drugs do have a real world effect, unlike placebo, they ALSO have a placebo effect too. They do both. So in some ways your skepticism about a REAL drug actually CAN affect their efficacy.

What is also remarkable is the more invasive a placebo, or real drug, feels.... the greater the placebo effect. So a pill has a greater placebo effect than a spoonful medicine. An injection has a greater placebo effect than a pill. And so forth.

Placebo is one seriously interesting and baffling set of effects. Often very counter intuitive. I wish we knew a lot more about it than we do.

I'm quite aware of the placebo effect and the dynamics of it - and also how 'medicinal theatre,' colour cues and language can all impact treatment efficacy.

But let's put it this way.....if you were lying in a coma would you prefer to get a placebo or the real thing?

Regardless of how strong the placebo effect is in any given individual it is still no justification for practising the fraud of homeopathy on people - if people want to try it that's up to them, but really only as the very last resort....

.....in fact it should only be tried in combination with crystal and angel therapy.

CelticRambler · 23-01-2018 10:10am

If you dilute your poison of choice with raw water instead of tap water (or pharamcy-grade sterile water), does that make a homeopathic remedy stronger or weaker? :pac:

nozzferrahhtoo · 23-01-2018 10:12am

Jawgap wrote: »

But let's put it this way.....if you were lying in a coma would you prefer to get a placebo or the real thing?

Given the subjective nature of placebo, I am not sure many people have tested trying to use it on patients who lack subjectivity due to not actually being conscious.

But I think you are making a different point now to the one I was replying to. I was merely addressing the claim that placebo "won't work if you don't believe" as it seems even when people know they are taking a placebo that does not do anything, it can still often work. So belief in it's efficacy is not always required.

Jawgap wrote: »

Regardless of how strong the placebo effect is in any given individual it is still no justification for practising the fraud of homeopathy on people

You will get no argument from me there. I think the law should be coming down a lot harder on such charlatans than it actually is, especially in countries were they not only get away with it but are FINANCED by the National Health Service for doing it.

The exploitation of the weak, vulnerable and desperate is alas a working business model however. Which does not leave many governments all that motivated to address it correctly.

Ubbquittious · 23-01-2018 10:34am

Ipso wrote: »

Wait until the dullards campaign to have it covered by the HSE, then you'll pay for it.
Complimentary Integrative Medicine will be the next one, real medicine does the work and the hippies take the credit.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The HSE covers so much ineffective sh1te already that it would be a drop in the ocean compared to what they squander already.

For example sh1te like Riluzole. This stuff might not have any patents on it anymore since it was invented in the 80's but it's just about as effective as handing a plastic bag to hold out the window to someone coming down the Alps in a car with no brakes and it isn't exactly cheap.

I reckon the fact that they're allowed to make money from something this useless prevents them from trying to invent something that actually works and soaks up the HSE's money that could have been spent on something else, though knowing them they'd spend it on hiring more admin staff.

El Weirdo · 23-01-2018 10:42am

Doge wrote: »

Nope she was part of the Irish Society Of Homeopaths.
My friend was given their newsletter after the visit, it was a yellow and black booklet iirc, but this was a good few years back.

A yellow *and* black booklet?

Well that's me convinced.

Widdershins · 23-01-2018 10:50am

I can understand herbalism for some things but homeopathy is..what? Plant vibrations, or something?

Harika · 23-01-2018 10:57am

Widdershins wrote: »

I can understand herbalism for some things but homeopathy is..what? Plant vibrations, or something?

It says water has memory, so if you give it something that resembles what you have and dilute it the water will keep this ingredient in memory. Basically the more you dilute it, the stronger it gets. You can try it yourself. Take your fav. booze and put it into a glass. Then spill it out, but leave a drop in it. Now fill the glass with water and swivel it 100 times. Then pour it away, but beware that there is still a drop in the glass. Add again water and swivel it 100 times. Pour it out and do this more 100 times. Finally fill the glass again with water. Now you have a super potent booze and a sip of it will kill you.
That is homeopathy in a nutshell.

Crea · 23-01-2018 11:45am

So your pal broke her leg and the first thing you do is tell her she's potentially screwed for a year - what a knob!
She has obviously been told that she'll be out of the cast in 6 weeks. That's entirely plausible depending on the type of break - homeopathy will have nothing to do with it but will get all the credit.

kylith · 23-01-2018 11:58am

Doge wrote: »

You’re making a big assumption there. I know someone who went to see a private homeopath and what they’d received was highly concentrated levels of herbs like ginger etc.. in liquid bottles.

This stuff was so pungent tasting that if you added 20mls to a glass of orange juice , even a pint of it you could still taste it and it was disgusting. I know, I tried it once.
Needless to say she stopped with the “treatment” as she couldn’t handle the taste.

So there are “genuine” homeopaths out there who aren’t handing out blank placebo pills, and of course there are con artists who do sell placebos with nothing in them.

Of course the big debate is if the “genuine” Homeopaths are con artists too selling something not backed up by science.

But just because we watch a ted video we shouldn’t conclude ALL homoeopaths sell blank pils just because he found some on the market.

As has been pointed out: that's herbalism, not homeopathy.

However, what a handy cop out when the 'treatment' does nothing. If no-one can finish the course because it tastes so foul you can never be held accountable for the fact that it does nothing.

Herbalism does, of course, have some benefits. Many medications have a basis in plants.

tringle wrote: »

I've used homeopathy for me and my family for bruising, warts, mouth ulcers, back pain and travel sickness, recovery after c section (as advised by the mid wives) and root canal and it has worked in speeding up the recovery process. I don't think it will cure a broken leg, but as you said your friend in on crutches and I assume she had a cast so is only using homeopathy ro assist conventional medicine.

So stuff that will go away on its own and, having had two root canals in the last year, stuff that has no ill effect after the lidocaine wears off. I'm very interested to hear what it did for a C-Section thoughe

Jawgap wrote: »

Except it doesn't - the placebo effect is very hit and miss and won't work if you don't believe. I can be a sceptical as I want about anti-biotics and chemo-therapeutic drugs but it isn't going to effect their efficacy.

Actually, the placebo effect works even if you know about it.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/placebos-work-even-when-you-know-10-12-23/

Harika wrote: »

It says water has memory, so if you give it something that resembles what you have and dilute it the water will keep this ingredient in memory. Basically the more you dilute it, the stronger it gets. You can try it yourself. Take your fav. booze and put it into a glass. Then spill it out, but leave a drop in it. Now fill the glass with water and swivel it 100 times. Then pour it away, but beware that there is still a drop in the glass. Add again water and swivel it 100 times. Pour it out and do this more 100 times. Finally fill the glass again with water. Now you have a super potent booze and a sip of it will kill you.
That is homeopathy in a nutshell.

Hang on, hang on. Don't forget the fact that the homeopathic "medicine" knows if your ill and won't do anything if you're not. At least this is the explanation homeopaths gave when a bunch of scientists took massive "doses" of homeopathic "medicine" a few years back.

It went on: "The society would not … expect any reaction to the proposed 'overdose' by this group unless, by chance, an individual in that group already had symptoms that matched that remedy at the time of taking it."

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/29/sceptics-homeopathy-mass-overdose-boots

c.p.w.g.w · 23-01-2018 11:59am

tringle wrote: »

I've used homeopathy for me and my family for bruising, warts, mouth ulcers, back pain and travel sickness, recovery after c section (as advised by the mid wives) and root canal and it has worked in speeding up the recovery process. I don't think it will cure a broken leg, but as you said your friend in on crutches and I assume she had a cast so is only using homeopathy ro assist conventional medicine.

My dad thinks its all a load of rubbish and gives out to my mam.saying its all in her head. Her response is does it matter, even if she only "thinks" she is no longer in pain thats a great improvement.

I don't think.you would get rich through it, a vial of arnica only costs about €6 and I have mine over 18 months now.

Ah Arnica...I would love to see every Pharmicist, Nurse, Mid Wife & Doctor that sells/recoomends it struck off and charged with medical negligence

Effects · 23-01-2018 12:05pm

tringle wrote: »

I've used homeopathy for me and my family for bruising, warts, mouth ulcers, back pain and travel sickness, recovery after c section (as advised by the mid wives) and root canal and it has worked in speeding up the recovery process.

I don't think you would get rich through it, a vial of arnica only costs about €6 and I have mine over 18 months now.

How can you be sure it speeded up the process? It probably would have taken the same length of time without homeopathy. Your Arnica tablets are the same as all the other homeopathic remedies. The only difference between them is what's written on the label.

endacl · 23-01-2018 3:11pm

_Dara_ wrote: »

What did the homeopathic treatment entail?

Water.

AndyBoBandy · 23-01-2018 7:51pm

In fairness though Homeopathy has always been a bit of a taboo remedy.

Especially since over 1,000 people OD’d on it when the Titanic sank over 100 years ago. It’s never really recovered since that event.

strandroad · 23-01-2018 7:55pm

tringle wrote: »

I've used homeopathy for me and my family for bruising, warts, mouth ulcers, back pain and travel sickness, recovery after c section (as advised by the mid wives) and root canal and it has worked in speeding up the recovery process. I don't think it will cure a broken leg, but as you said your friend in on crutches and I assume she had a cast so is only using homeopathy ro assist conventional medicine.

My dad thinks its all a load of rubbish and gives out to my mam.saying its all in her head. Her response is does it matter, even if she only "thinks" she is no longer in pain thats a great improvement.

I don't think.you would get rich through it, a vial of arnica only costs about €6 and I have mine over 18 months now.

Arnica is a plant, with recognised healing benefits. If you're using a formula with actual arnica in it, it's a legit herbal treatment (nothing to do with homeopathy). If you're using a homeopathic formula with no actual arnica in it, it's water.

c.p.w.g.w · 23-01-2018 8:04pm

strandroad wrote: »

Arnica is a plant, with recognised healing benefits. If you're using a formula with actual arnica in it, it's a legit herbal treatment (nothing to do with homeopathy). If you're using a homeopathic formula with no actual arnica in it, it's water.

Its always the Homeopathic form i see in Pharmacists

Doge · 23-01-2018 8:15pm

I'm going to be absolutely honest here and say that now I'm not sure if the practitioner was a homeopath or a herbalist.

In my memory she was a homeopath but this is going back nearly 12 or 13 years so I could easily have latched on to the first label that came to mind.

So my apologies c.p.w.g.w

So what do people think of herbalists here?

It used be the only form of medicine we had before western medicine came along.

Is it possible that our bodies have adapted to western medicine so much due to its higher strength and effectiveness that we now have a higher tolerance to herbal medicine and do not find it as effective as it once was?

_Dara_ · 23-01-2018 8:21pm

A lot of medicines come from plants. But whether the substance found in plants can get to its intended bodily destination often means a helping hand from science.

Subcomandante Marcos · 23-01-2018 8:22pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Its always the Homeopathic form i see in Pharmacists

Pharmacists sell all sort of quackery from weight loss supplements to immune boosting tonics and every sort of bollocks in-between.
They're businesses and understand that a certain proportion of people will buy into any auld nonsense.

Subcomandante Marcos · 23-01-2018 8:23pm

_Dara_ wrote: »

A lot of medicines come from plants. But whether the substance found in plants can get to its intended bodily destination often means a helping hand from science.

So you're saying just eating mauldy tomatoes won't cure this chest infection I have? Sure isn't it penicillin?

quickbeam · 23-01-2018 8:48pm

tringle wrote: »

I've used homeopathy for me and my family for bruising, warts, mouth ulcers, back pain and travel sickness, recovery after c section (as advised by the mid wives) and root canal and it has worked in speeding up the recovery process. I don't think it will cure a broken leg, but as you said your friend in on crutches and I assume she had a cast so is only using homeopathy ro assist conventional medicine.

You can't actually know that unless you had a control group which didn't take the remedy for the same illness.

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The HSE covers so much ineffective sh1te already that it would be a drop in the ocean compared to what they squander already.

Unintended LOLs??!!

Doge · 23-01-2018 8:51pm

quickbeam wrote: »

You can't actually know that unless you had a control group which didn't take the remedy for the same illness.

Even then you still wouldn't know as some peoples bodies heal quicker than others.

quickbeam · 23-01-2018 8:54pm

Doge wrote: »

Even then you still wouldn't know as some peoples bodies heal quicker than others.

True. You'd need a sufficient sample size in both groups to overcome that.

Bad Science by Ben Goldacre should be mandatory reading. It discusses a lot of the same topics here.

joe swanson · 24-01-2018 1:24pm

The people peddling this rubbish should be prosecuted. They are putting lives at risk and I am not exaggerating.

I happen to have the fortune to have an inlaw that is totally committed to putting his, and his families health at risk.

They actually look down at people who bring their children to an actual doctor and would only consider a homeopath. They like the world to know aswell via facebook. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

To complement this disregard for their children's health, also believe in not vaccinating their kids, Chemtrails, banksters, 9/11conspiraices. I'm surprised they don't believe in flat earth theory.

The increase in availability to bogus information online to uneducated/vulnerable/gullible people had made it a bigger problem than it once would have been. Along with a reluctance in today's PC world to criticise these quacks

murpho999 · 24-01-2018 1:41pm

I can tolerate homeopaths but only in small doses.

ohnonotgmail · 24-01-2018 1:58pm

Jawgap wrote: »

It's a multi-million dollar industry in France: http://edzardernst.com/2015/05/homeopathy-in-france-a-triumph-of-profit-over-reason/

How can you make any money from homeopathy......surely the fúcktards who buy it know they never have to buy the treatment again, they just keep diluting it and diluting it......

......in fact maybe there's money to be made by buying one bottle of the stuff, diluting it a million fold and selling on the new conction;)

what you are proposing is very very dangerous. when you dilute a homeopathic remedy you actually make it stronger. you could end up selling something that is too strong and actually make people very ill.

Homeopathy; the new wallet inspector.

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