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Attempts to legalise corruption in Romania

  • 21-01-2018 2:09pm
    #1
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,722 ✭✭✭✭


    Yesterday mass protests happened in the big cities in Romania over plans by the government - the Social Democrats to make corruption up to €200,000 legal.
    It won’t be a criminal offense to take a bribe up to that figure if the government gets their way.
    Also plans on restrictions of things like electronic evidence and CCTV being used as evidence.
    Basically the plan is to legalise corruption.

    I play online games with a group of people that I do chat with, a few of them are Romanian, to say they are raging is an understatement.
    They have taken part in protests against this. I was just dumb founded that this is happening in an EU country.

    An MEP from Romania complained about the EU saying they wait until the law is actually changed and then will take action rather than stopping it before it can become law.
    Romania and Bulgaria have their Judical system and rule of law under special monitoring as these were areas the EU were concerned about when both joined in 2007.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/19/romania-braced-for-huge-protests-amid-big-step-backwards-on-rule-of-law


Comments

  • #2
    VonZan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭VonZan


    The problem, as anyone who has done business in Romania will know, is that to get almost anything done you have to bribe someone. It’s easier to decriminalise than attempt to reform.


  • #3
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,279 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Like a lot of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states they are absolutely up to their neck in a cess pool of corruption. You would really wonder what the hell the EU is doing allowing such countries to be part of it.

    If they want to legalise bribery then maybe better for all concerned that they are thrown out of the EU and draw a line under the whole fiasco.


  • #4
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    If they want to legalise bribery then maybe better for all concerned that they are thrown out of the EU and draw a line under the whole fiasco.
    Ironic to think that the EU's insistence on the free movement of these guys into the UK was a big part of what eventually led to Brexit.


  • #5
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,258 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    recedite wrote: »
    Ironic to think that the EU's insistence on the free movement of these guys into the UK was a big part of what eventually led to Brexit.
    Really? So the "EU wants Turkey to join" or a certain red bus running around promising money to NHS were not driving forces? Because from what I heard and saw the issue was not with EU people moving around but UK's governments utter failure to deal with it legally like Belgium and Germany were doing at the time (and UK's government were told when they complained about it) and took the easy way out and blamed it on EU instead.


  • #6
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,065 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: Can we stay on topic please. We already have a Brexit thread.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • #7
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Like a lot of the Eastern European former Soviet bloc states they are absolutely up to their neck in a cess pool of corruption. You would really wonder what the hell the EU is doing allowing such countries to be part of it.

    If they want to legalise bribery then maybe better for all concerned that they are thrown out of the EU and draw a line under the whole fiasco.

    Kind of like Ireland in the 70's, 80's and 90's? There is no mechanism to remove a member state.


  • #8
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    An MEP from Romania complained about the EU saying they wait until the law is actually changed and then will take action rather than stopping it before it can become law.

    An MEP wants the EU to have the power to prevent a law from being enacted in a member state?

    Yeah, that would go down well.


  • #9
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,258 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    An MEP wants the EU to have the power to prevent a law from being enacted in a member state?

    Yeah, that would go down well.
    From what I read it's more a complaint that EU waits until after a law is implemented to prepare sanctions etc. rather than being proactive about it more so than EU stopping a law. I think Poland's judiciary reform is a prime example or the independence of the Bulgarian central bank.


  • #10
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Nody wrote: »
    From what I read it's more a complaint that EU waits until after a law is implemented to prepare sanctions etc. rather than being proactive about it more so than EU stopping a law. I think Poland's judiciary reform is a prime example or the independence of the Bulgarian central bank.

    I don't see any problem with the EU making it clear that there will be consequences for enacting laws that go against the core principles of the Union, but "preparing sanctions" is a bit pre-crime for my liking.


  • #11
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Nody wrote: »
    I think Poland's judiciary reform is a prime example
    The Poles are doing away with traditional merit based selection of judges, and going for selection by their parliament instead.
    But if a general EU sanction was introduced, we might fall foul of it ourselves. Our judges are selected by a subset of parliament (the govt.) which is even worse. The EU wouldn't want to catch us in the net, because they want to hold us up as the successful "poster child" of the EU. We generally do what we are told, unlike the Poles.

    So I think whether any sanction is applied to Romania will depend on the broader context of how cooperative they have been recently, more than on the exact nature of their offence to EU sensibilities.


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  • #12
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    recedite wrote: »
    The Poles are doing away with traditional merit based selection of judges, and going for selection by their parliament instead.
    But if a general EU sanction was introduced, we might fall foul of it ourselves. Our judges are selected by a subset of parliament (the govt.) which is even worse. The EU wouldn't want to catch us in the net, because they want to hold us up as the successful "poster child" of the EU. We generally do what we are told, unlike the Poles.

    So I think whether any sanction is applied to Romania will depend on the broader context of how cooperative they have been recently, more than on the exact nature of their offence to EU sensibilities.
    We often fall far short of targets for environmental improvement. We are terrible with respect to greenhouse gases and recycling. Varadkar even admitted we are "laggards" in the European Parliament last week. I don't see us as a country that does what it's told by the EU at all.... often to our shame!


  • #13
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    murphaph wrote: »
    We often fall far short of targets for environmental improvement. We are terrible with respect to greenhouse gases and recycling. Varadkar even admitted we are "laggards" in the European Parliament last week. I don't see us as a country that does what it's told by the EU at all.... often to our shame!
    We may be laggards when it comes to actually doing stuff, but we know how to talk the talk, and at EU level we vote the way they want us to vote.
    But the Poles are openly defiant.


  • #14
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,757 ✭✭✭Cordell


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Kind of like Ireland in the 70's, 80's and 90's? There is no mechanism to remove a member state.

    Much worse. From what I gather Ireland used to have corrupted politicians that would take bribes and kickbacks from businesses. Romania moved well past that. Now the politicians are the ones owning those businesses.
    So Ireland had the likes of Denis O'Brien bribing the likes of Bertie Ahern? In Romania Denis O'Brien IS the Taoiseach. And they are trying to make it either legal or impossible to prosecute. All of the recent governments had ministers under criminal investigation, or with criminal convictions, or both.
    That's where it's at - the 10000 ft view.

    Source: I'm Romanian.


  • #15
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,722 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Large anti-corruption protests in Bucharest today, Romanians from across Europe returned home for it. Some arrests made by the police.
    A friend of mine who is Romanian said the police had closed down the motorways leading to Bucharest to prevent people reaching the protest against the left wing government.


  • #16
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,757 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Maybe they did that although not even the most favorable press is not reporting such a thing. The main issue is that this protest was designed to fail, as it was announced big, with 1 million people coming, so they can report it as a illegitimate movement and ridicule it and bury this whole anti corruption movement. I hope I'm wrong but this is how I see it, and it's not the first time since that huge protest in February 2017 when I got this feeling, that the movement is intentionally distracted to useless and ridiculous ends.
    And even a bigger problem is that the majority of the population actually supports the establishment, they don't care about corruption, all they care about is making the ends meet. So peaceful democratic protests will achieve nothing. Except maybe for upping the pressure to have the ruling party leader (also the defacto PM) overthrown by some equally sleazy character, or even worse.
    But he's the kind of guy that have business partners hang themselves in the plane and surrounds himself with known gangsters while appearing in court to intimidate the media and his detractors, so maybe not.


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