Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

end of the road · 20-01-2018 08:01PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't believe in sins

believe in them as they exist. they don't have to be against a god, they can be against society and the state.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 08:03PM

end of the road wrote:

believe in them as they exist. they don't have to be against a god, they can be against society and the state.

All sins are against God and your neighbour.

Turtwig · 20-01-2018 08:06PM

Mod: keep to the topic please and keep substance in the posts. Any more off topic one liners will be deleted.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 20-01-2018 08:09PM

Turtwig wrote:

Mod: keep to the topic please and keep substance in the posts. Any more off topic one liners will be deleted.

It's ok Moderator, I have no more to say. Thank you for giving me the Boards.ie platform, and thanks to all who responded civilly to me. God bless you all.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-01-2018 10:59PM

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

All infirmities and illnesses are due to the fallen angel Lucifer and his cohorts, who roam the world, seeking them that they may devour.

Those feckin' disabled people, I knew they were in cahoots with the devil all along.

:rolleyes:

david75 · 20-01-2018 11:28PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Those feckin' disabled people, I knew they were in cahoots with the devil all along.

:rolleyes:

And their poor mothers and fathers and carers doing God’s work looking after them.

Doing God’s work cos God is either a lazy prick or an evil prick for doing it to them

C14N · 21-01-2018 12:10AM

I don't really see why not. The bible does state pretty unequivocally to not kill, but as far as I'm aware, there are no specifics on when "ensoulment" occurs, and there were prominent theologians who, before modern science, did not believe it occurred at conception. It was once upon a time held as belief that it occurred at 40 days for boys and 90 days for girls, based on the beliefs of Aristotle that simply weren't questioned. Modern Catholic teaching is pretty clear that it now believes it happens at conception, but non-Catholic denominations could easily have their own beliefs.

SusieBlue · 21-01-2018 12:29AM

end of the road wrote: »

believe in them as they exist. they don't have to be against a god, they can be against society and the state.

I actually can’t believe the irony of you posting this when you have already made it clear that you aren’t religious.
Seems religious ideals suit you only when they suit your opinion on abortion. The absolute irony.

end of the road · 21-01-2018 01:12AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I actually can’t believe the irony of you posting this when you have already made it clear that you aren’t religious.
Seems religious ideals suit you only when they suit your opinion on abortion. The absolute irony.

the word sin can be used in a number of different contexts not just religious. my statements on abortion are not simply opinion but actual fact. try again.

uptherebels · 21-01-2018 01:20AM

end of the road wrote: »

.my statements on abortion are not simply opinion but actual fact.

Yes all those "facts" you back up with actual evidence!
I think you mean unsupported claims

SusieBlue · 21-01-2018 02:05AM

end of the road wrote: »

the word sin can be used in a number of different contexts not just religious. my statements on abortion are not simply opinion but actual fact. try again.

We’ve been through this before: your opinion is not a fact.
They are not facts. They simply are not. They are your perception, they aren’t incorrect (though I may vehemently disagree with them), and you are entitled to hold them, but they are not facts. Repeating it over and over will not make them so.

end of the road · 21-01-2018 02:14AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

We’ve been through this before: your opinion is not a fact.
They are not facts. They simply are not. They are your perception, they aren’t incorrect (though I may vehemently disagree with them), and you are entitled to hold them, but they are not facts. Repeating it over and over will not make them so.

we have been through this before. everything you state in relation to me is incorrect and that cannot be disputed.
what i have stated in relation to the killing of the unborn and how outside extreme circumstances there is no justification for it is a fact.

koumi · 21-01-2018 02:33AM

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

God help you, although I doubt He can.

Jesus...

...already did
:pac:

SusieBlue · 21-01-2018 02:37AM

end of the road wrote: »

we have been through this before. everything you state in relation to me is incorrect and that cannot be disputed.
what i have stated in relation to the killing of the unborn and how outside extreme circumstances there is no justification for it is a fact.

It can be disputed, I’m disputing it right now. You’re opinion is not a fact, and it is extremely arrogant to presume so.

If what you were saying were a fact we would not be having this referendum.

end of the road · 21-01-2018 03:08AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It can be disputed, I’m disputing it right now. You’re opinion is not a fact, and it is extremely arrogant to presume so.

If what you were saying were a fact we would not be having this referendum.

it can't be disputed. you have tried to dispute it but have failed each time.
of course we would be having the referendum because some in this country think it's okay, unrestricted and on demand, to kill the most vunerable, the unborn. it's not and it never will be whether the 8th is repealed or not. it goes against humanity and all that is right, and everything humanity stands for. this fact unites both religious and non-religious who see unrestricted and on demand abortion for what it actually is

SusieBlue · 21-01-2018 03:13AM

end of the road wrote: »

it can't be disputed. you have tried to dispute it but have failed each time.
of course we would be having the referendum because some in this country think it's okay, unrestricted and on demand, to kill the most vunerable, the unborn. it's not and it never will be whether the 8th is repealed or not. it goes against humanity and all that is right, and everything humanity stands for. this fact unites both religious and non-religious who see unrestricted and on demand abortion for what it actually is

You literally just completely contradicted yourself and proved my point.

end of the road · 21-01-2018 03:30AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

You literally just completely contradicted yourself and proved my point.

this is factually incorrect. you claimed to have disputed the point i made and i have told you that you have failed to dispute it because that is the case. christians and all other religions are united with those of us who are non-religious in knowing that the killing of the unborn unrestricted and on demand is one of the most barbaric acts known to man.

koumi · 21-01-2018 03:40AM

I say ye without sin should cast the first stone

uptherebels · 21-01-2018 05:29AM

end of the road wrote: »

this is factually incorrect. you claimed to have disputed the point i made and i have told you that you have failed to dispute it because that is the case. christians and all other religions are united with those of us who are non-religious in knowing that the killing of the unborn unrestricted and on demand is one of the most barbaric acts known to man.

You mean those same religions whose churches were against the 8th in the first place? (Apart from the RCC)
And just to add,when you say all religions are you including the ones that have no official stance on abortion or the ones that are ok with it up to a certain number of weeks?

uptherebels · 21-01-2018 05:33AM

end of the road wrote: »

we have been through this before. everything you state in relation to me is incorrect and that cannot be disputed.
what i have stated in relation to the killing of the unborn and how outside extreme circumstances there is no justification for it, in my opinion.

Fixed that for you

bilbot79 · 21-01-2018 06:34AM

J C wrote: »

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

There you all go outsourcing your moral values again. Can you not make up your own mind?

NinetyTwoTeam · 21-01-2018 07:27AM

Do any of you Christian pro-lifers here actually think there is any chance the 8th won't be repealed? Because from what I am reading here I am kind of concerned that you are going to take it very hard, and you might want to just prepare yourselves as it is practically a dead cert it will be repealed.

Nick Park · 21-01-2018 10:03AM

koumi wrote: »

I say ye without sin should cast the first stone

That would be rather hard to legislate for? That only sinless people could kill unborn babies?

Or are you saying that only sinless people should express their opinion on human rights?

Nick Park · 21-01-2018 10:07AM

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Do any of you Christian pro-lifers here actually think there is any chance the 8th won't be repealed? Because from what I am reading here I am kind of concerned that you are going to take it very hard, and you might want to just prepare yourselves as it is practically a dead cert it will be repealed.

I think there is a fair chance that it won't be repealed. A referendum could go either way. Generally the only people who try to portray one as a sure bet is when Paddy Power pay out early for a publicity stunt. (Actually, just wondering if even Paddy Power will be so crass as to take bets on an abortion referendum).

If it is repealed then I'll obviously be disappointed that our country becomes a less compassionate place, but it won't be the end of the world. Christianity, for most of its history and in most parts of the world, has carried on and grown when the surrounding society has been much worse than Ireland would be after such a repeal.

koumi · 21-01-2018 10:39AM

Nick Park wrote: »

That would be rather hard to legislate for? That only sinless people could kill unborn babies?

Or are you saying that only sinless people should express their opinion on human rights?

No, I was referring to the issue as being moral rather than legislative. The topic is a bit misleading as the repeal campaign is not about legislating for unlimited abortion, so it's a bit moot.

As per the previous running commentary condemning women who may require abortion for medical purposes as being murderers...well, that's where we need to draw a line in the sand and anyone wishing to punish or condemn them should probably make sure they are in a position to do so.

Gerry T · 21-01-2018 11:23AM

NinetyTwoTeam wrote:

Do any of you Christian pro-lifers here actually think there is any chance the 8th won't be repealed? Because from what I am reading here I am kind of concerned that you are going to take it very hard, and you might want to just prepare yourselves as it is practically a dead cert it will be repealed.

Before I started reading this thread I would have sided with the repeal side. But my opinion changed,not for any religious beliefs but just a fundamental change in my thinking. I now think a human begins life at conception, it's not a clump of cells or some thing that changes state. The vote could be closer than people think, but I think it will be repealed.
But do we think women will be flocking to have abortions, I don't. I think the majority in reality will consult and consider their options very carefully. Sure didn't God say not to judge others, so for religious minded people, let God be the judge.
I think the OPs question is easily answered, if your religious then no you can't have an abortion in any case. But irl is full of Al le carte catholics that in the majority I can see voting repeal.

J C · 21-01-2018 12:13PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Wow!! I'm not going to pretend to speak on behalf of women who have been pregnant but having lived through it with my wife on several occasions I'm of the view that nothing whatsoever about being pregnant is either quiet or automatic!! I witnessed a woman in all kinds of discomfort who had to refrain from certain activity and basically devote herself to being as good a foetus carrier as possible.

Saying the process is quiet and automatic makes it sound like its a walk in the park comparable to letting your hair grow. Have you or your partner ever been pregnant?

Yes, my wife has been pregnant on a number of occasions. It was actually my wife who pointed out that the pregnancies were nothing in comparison with the work and commitment required after the births of our children.
... and Maternity Benefit rules recognise this reality ... it is required to go on maternity leave only 2 weeks before the baby is due ... and the benefit is payable for a further 24 weeks after the birth, with the possibility of taking a further 16 weeks unpaid leave.
This is a clear indicator of the relative commitments in time and effort between being pregnant and looking after a newborn baby.
Obviously, a tiny minority of pregnancies don't go smoothly ... but I was talking about the majority, who do.

J C · 21-01-2018 01:42PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It remains to be seen, of course, what the referendum question will be.

If it's a bit like the divorce referendum, with the absolute prohibition being replaced by a provision which accommodates abortion only in defined and constitutionally-entrenched circumstances, then obviously a vote for unlimited abortion isn't being offered, and the question raised in the OP won't arise.

If the proposal is simply to delete the prohibition, and leave it up to the Oireachtas to legislate to permit abortion in whatever circumstances it thinks fit from time to time, I don't think that would be a vote for unlimited abortion; it would be a vote to give the Oireachtas power to determine the limits within which abortion would be permitted.

Almost certainly, there'd be an explicit proposal as to how the Oireachtas would legislate, at least initially, and I very much doubt that it would be a complete decriminalisation of abortion in all circumstances.

The most you could say, I think, would be that someone might vote to give the Oireachtas power to permit unlimited abortion. Can a Christian countenance this state of affairs? Well, yes; it's the usual state of affairs in most countries, and there's no worldwide Christian movement to change this. And it's the current state of affairs in Ireland with respect to many other important moral questions; the Oireachtas can already legislate for which killings of people already born will be regarded as murder, for example, and which will not.

In short, I don't think the question raised in the OP has much application in the real world. Depending on the question put to the people in the referendum, the most people will be able to vote for is to permit abortion on terms to be written into the Constitution, or to permit abortion on the terms in which the government has said it intends to legislate, or to permit abortion on the terms in which the voter thinks, or fears, the Oireachtas is likely to legislate. Realistically, I don't think that in any of those cases are we looking at "unlimited abortion".

The current proposal is for the 8th Amendment to be repealed and for legisation to be introduced immedately upon a 'yes' vote to allow unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks.
So, my question is valid, we are indeed faced with voting for unlimited abortion.
... and 12 weeks will only be a starting point ... there will be nothing to stop it moving to 24 weeks as it is in England currently (on the basis that women who are 24 weeks pregnant shouldn't have to travel to England for an abortion) ... and it will likely be up to 9 months, as is currently the case in England for unborn children who "would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".

J C · 21-01-2018 02:31PM

gallifreya wrote: »

Why is the compassion only going one way -where is the compassion for women? There seems to be a blindness to any suffering or injury that could befall women due to pregnancy as long as the foetus is protected. So laws protect the unborn at the expense of women, Christians give their compassion to the unborn at the expense of women and the purported equality and balance are already skewed. Should a 12 week limit pass, the unborn will still be protected - just at a later stage of development.

We are dealing with two lives ... and Christians have compassion for both.
If a woman's life is threatened by a pregnancy, abortion should be available ... but it should not be available on demand for no reason whatsoever.
Where is the compassion for the unborn, whose lives are going to be snuffed out in unlimited abortion?

J C · 21-01-2018 02:49PM

gallifreya wrote: »

There is no dishonesty or pretence in that these supposed equal rights are currently harming women. I asked a question about compassion out of genuine curiosity. The 'love both' concept is just peddling the status quo imo. However, awarding all the concern and compassion for the unborn does indeed indicate a lack of concern and compassion for the pregnant women, 'loving both' notwithstanding. Maybe a balance in compassion could be achieved to repeal this draconian amendment that actually would achieve a balance of rights.

What is this 'harm' that you speak of which pregnant women suffer?
Pregnancy is a natural state for a fertile woman to find herself and most pregnancies proceed smoothly and with no ill effects.
If a pregnancy threatens a womans life or if necessary medication for a womans health and wellbeing has the effect of harming her unborn child, then so be it, the woman's life and health 'trumps' the unborn's rights in this regard.
However, unlimited abortion is abortion simply because a woman decides to abort (or those around her convince her, sometimes against her better judgement, to have an abortion).

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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