Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

Vinnie222 · 19-01-2018 12:03PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is definitely a huge problem with painkiller use in rugby. Bernard Jackman spoke on it earlier in the season and it was pretty shocking to hear the amount of guys who need them to stay on the field

Lots of ex players have also spoke freely about the use of painkiller and Tues in the ganme and their addition to painkillers

prawnsambo · 19-01-2018 12:15PM

Carlo del Fava was interviewed on Off The Ball am. Some quotes and links here.

The Specialist · 19-01-2018 12:19PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Carlo del Fava was interviewed on Off The Ball am. Some quotes and links here.

I see Chris Henry was in full hypocrite mode yesterday on the topic of Grobler, despite him playing alongside Carlo in 2009.

19-01-2018 12:30PM

The Specialist wrote: »

I see Chris Henry was in full hypocrite mode yesterday on the topic of Grobler, despite him playing alongside Carlo in 2009.

Yeah, he should have packed up and left Ulster the second they signed Carlo.

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, he doesn't decide who he plays alongside whether he likes it or not.

The Specialist · 19-01-2018 12:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, he should have packed up and left Ulster the second they signed Carlo.

Nothing hypocritical about it at all, he doesn't decide who he plays alongside whether he likes it or not.

He had nothing to say about that, though has plenty to say about Grobler. Hypocrite.

irishbucsfan · 19-01-2018 12:44PM

The Specialist wrote: »

He had nothing to say about that, though has plenty to say about Grobler. Hypocrite.

No. It would be hypocrisy if he had said it was OK at the time.

Former Former · 19-01-2018 12:48PM

If you go back to the current Munster players in a few years and ask them what they think of Grobler's presence, they will absolutely say they weren't comfortable with it. 100%.

There are more red herrings in this thread than a communist fishmongers.

Vinnie222 · 19-01-2018 12:52PM

Former Former wrote: »

If you go back to the current Munster players in a few years and ask them what they think of Grobler's presence, they will absolutely say they weren't comfortable with it. 100%.

There are more red herrings in this thread than a communist fishmongers.

I doubt that , how many ulster players came out against Del Favas . And who was del Fava's lock partner in his first season at Ulster only Justin Harrison who was banned for racial abuse 5 months before joining Ulster and banned for cocaine use the season after leaving Ulster.

Tomtom364 · 19-01-2018 12:52PM

How is a zero tolerance policy being understood to mean the IRFU shouldnt have given the go ahead for the signing.

Zero tolerance means that under no circumstances should the act go unpunished.
Not that the person should be punished for the rest of their career.

Nor does it mean they believe the punishment should be more severe then was handing out. Just that all infractions should receive the stated punishment regardless of circumstances

Former Former · 19-01-2018 12:58PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

I doubt that , how many ulster players came out against Del Favas . And who was del Fava's lock partner in his first season at Ulster only Justin Harrison who was banned for racial abuse 5 months before joining Ulster and banned for cocaine use the season after leaving Ulster.

Ah listen, if we have to go back to something that happened ten years ago for a reason to be outraged and convince ourselves that it's an anti-Munster conspiracy, then we're pretty hard up.

Del Fava is gone a long, long time. The game is constantly changing. Ten years before Del Fava, the IRFU was ignoring positive drug tests without so much as a hearing. Ten years before that, it was a bigger offence to accept money for playing the game than it was to take drugs.

Things move on.

Yes, the current Munster players (a lot of them at least) will be deeply uncomfortable with his presence. It's foolish to think otherwise.

19-01-2018 12:58PM

The Specialist wrote: »

He had nothing to say about that, though has plenty to say about Grobler. Hypocrite.

Criticise one of his teammates?

There are undoubtedly those in the Munster camp who have a problem with Grobler but there isn't a hope any of them will step out of line and criticise Munster / IRFU over it.

19-01-2018 01:00PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

I doubt that , how many ulster players came out against Del Favas . And who was del Fava's lock partner in his first season at Ulster only Justin Harrison who was banned for racial abuse 5 months before joining Ulster and banned for cocaine use the season after leaving Ulster.

You might want to have a look at Jonny Hollands AMA to see what a very recent former player thinks about it.

19-01-2018 01:01PM

Former Former wrote: »

Ah listen, if we have to go back to something that happened ten years ago for a reason to be outraged and convince ourselves that it's an anti-Munster conspiracy, then we're pretty hard up.

Del Fava is gone a long, long time. The game is constantly changing. Ten years before Del Fava, the IRFU was ignoring positive drug tests without so much as a hearing. Ten years before that, it was a bigger offence to accept money for playing the game than it was to take drugs.

Things move on.

Yes, the current Munster players (a lot of them at least) will be deeply uncomfortable with his presence. It's foolish to think otherwise.

There is a part of me that would love to see how this thread would read if Leinster had done this.

Vinnie222 · 19-01-2018 01:05PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You might want to have a look at Jonny Hollands AMA to see what a very recent former player thinks about it.

J Holland never played with him

19-01-2018 01:18PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

J Holland never played with him

So a very recent player has an issue with it, but you are happy to state that no current players do?

Vinnie222 · 19-01-2018 01:20PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So a very recent player has an issue with it, but you are happy to state that no current players do?

Do you know personally that they do ? I can only go by what Conor M and Peter O M have said

Former Former · 19-01-2018 01:21PM

The other thing that hasn't really been discussed on this thread is that Van Graan has been given the mother of all hospital passes by Rassie and IRFU. I've a lot of sympathy for him.

19-01-2018 01:28PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Do you know personally that they do ? I can only go by what Conor M and Peter O M have said

There is no way of proving it unless every player is anonymously canvassed on the issue which isn't going to happen.

That said I think it's infinitely more likely that a number of them have an issue than absolutely none of them. It's fantasy to suggest that no one in the squad has an issue with a convicted doper.

thebaz · 19-01-2018 01:45PM

The Indo which really broke the story with Paul Kimmage over the top analysis - now giving Del Favas story with the headline :-

" 'I wasn't big enough, wasn't strong enough' - Former Ulster lock opens up on why he took steroids "

I think the whole thing is pretty low level journalism just to sell papers, do young impressionable rugby players need to hear this or his excuses ?

jm08 · 19-01-2018 01:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no way of proving it unless every player is anonymously canvassed on the issue which isn't going to happen.

That said I think it's infinitely more likely that a number of them have an issue than absolutely none of them. It's fantasy to suggest that no one in the squad has an issue with a convicted doper.

Conor Murray in London Times:

The scrum half told The Times: “We had a good chat at the end of training because it’s affecting him badly, all the stuff people have been saying and writing and going after the club. It’s a time we need to remain tight and ignore this ****, and it is ****. It is people creating something.

“GG is part of the Munster family and it is important we stay together,” he added. “Everyone knew his situation and everyone accepted it. It’s a storm at the moment and it’s not nice. Some of the media are saying, ‘Take drug kids and you can get a contract at Munster’, but that’s an awful way to angle it.

19-01-2018 01:50PM

thebaz wrote: »

The Indo which really broke the story with Paul Kimmage over the top analysis - now giving Del Favas story with the headline :-

" 'I wasn't big enough, wasn't strong enough' - Former Ulster lock opens up on why he took steroids "

I think the whole thing is pretty low level journalism just to sell papers, do young impressionable rugby players need to hear this or his excuses ?

I'd go out and listen to it the full off the ball interview. He comes across very well and the as much as they can avoid GG as they wanted to have the larger conversation.

irishbucsfan · 19-01-2018 01:50PM

Basically if it wasn't for an injury to Johnny Holland, there would have been only one person in the Munster squad who would have had a problem with this.

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Trojan · 19-01-2018 06:16PM

CM wrote:

"Some of the media are saying, ‘Take drug kids and you can get a contract at Munster’, but that’s an awful way to angle it."

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

Neil3030 · 19-01-2018 06:33PM

I have to say that the coverage is really starting to annoy me. Half an hour AGAIN devoted to this on Wednesday night rugby on OTB, when the Irish squad was announced, and the final pool stages of the Heino are this weekend - both of which took a complete back seat to the hand wringing. The segment even featured a taped interview where Ger Gilroy asked Philip Browne questions like: "Why are you poisoning the Munster brand", "You brought a cheat in", "You could pay his contract up, so he doesn't have to play". This is completely over the top, I'm sorry. At this stage I wonder if it's a case that the media are trying to claw back some credibility after being caught completely sleeping when this guy signed.

19-01-2018 06:49PM

Trojan wrote: »

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

The actual Munster press release said that he was an example to the Academy players.

It may be the stupidest thing I've read this week and I read the comments sections on news sites.

prawnsambo · 19-01-2018 06:54PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

I have to say that the coverage is really starting to annoy me. Half an hour AGAIN devoted to this on Wednesday night rugby on OTB, when the Irish squad was announced, and the final pool stages of the Heino are this weekend - both of which took a complete back seat to the hand wringing. The segment even featured a taped interview where Ger Gilroy asked Philip Browne questions like: "Why are you poisoning the Munster brand", "You brought a cheat in", "You could pay his contract up, so he doesn't have to play". This is completely over the top, I'm sorry. At this stage I wonder if it's a case that the media are trying to claw back some credibility after being caught completely sleeping when this guy signed.

Yeah, there's probably a bit of that in it alright. But then again, we're still talking about it too. :rolleyes:

The Rape of Lucretia · 19-01-2018 07:12PM

Former Former wrote: »

The other thing that hasn't really been discussed on this thread is that Van Graan has been given the mother of all hospital passes by Rassie and IRFU. I've a lot of sympathy for him.

Why ? The guy is a dirty rotten cheat, and is lucky to be still in the game/profession as it is. And in that hybrid lies the problem. He didnt just commit a crime and serve his time, or commit professional malpractice and mend his ways, as might be the case in other spheres of society - sport is different. Despite being a profession to some, it is still at its core, a game. An artificial contest according to agreed rules, with success or winning, an ultimately meaningless event outside the game and only existing within the artificial construct of the sport. And success in it only has meaning if these artifical rules are observed. He didnt. In a big way. Such 'sport'men caught, should be flung out. They are not going to gaol, they are not being impeded from living otherwise free lives, and are able to earn an income in any other profession that they choose. Zero sympathy. And shame on Munster for sullying the rich heritage of Munster rugby.

prawnsambo · 19-01-2018 07:15PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Why ? The guy is a dirty rotten cheat, and is lucky to be still in the game/profession as it is. And in that hybrid lies the problem. He didnt just commit a crime and serve his time, or commit professional malpractice and mend his ways, as might be the case in other spheres of society - sport is different. Despite being a profession to some, it is still at its core, a game. An artificial contest according to agreed rules, with success or winning, an ultimately meaningless event outside the game and only existing within the artificial construct of the sport. And success in it only has meaning if these artifical rules are observed. He didnt. In a big way. Zero sympathy. Such 'sport'men caught, should be flung out. They are not going to gaol, they are not being impeded from living otherwise free lives, and are able to earn an income in any other profession that they choose. Zero sympathy. And shame on Munster for sullying the rich heritage of Munster rugby.

Classic rant!

Shame you didn't properly read the post you replied to.

:pac:

paddy no 11 · 19-01-2018 08:51PM

Trojan wrote: »

Awful and all as it it, that's precisely what Munster are saying when they circle the wagons and double down on "he served his time".

Just what incentive is there for a young 19 year old who is skilled but just a bit too small to make the cut NOT to take the risk? The prize is a pro rugby contract and possibly even an international career. Even if they're caught, two years is nothing. And then they've served their time.

Murray and the rest of his teammates HAVE to support him publicly- that's just the nature of rugby. The fanbase do not.

Absolutely supporters should be up in arms. Only people in favour of grobler are those over the top blow hards

Former Former · 19-01-2018 09:09PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

I have to say that the coverage is really starting to annoy me. Half an hour AGAIN devoted to this on Wednesday night rugby on OTB, when the Irish squad was announced, and the final pool stages of the Heino are this weekend - both of which took a complete back seat to the hand wringing. The segment even featured a taped interview where Ger Gilroy asked Philip Browne questions like: "Why are you poisoning the Munster brand", "You brought a cheat in", "You could pay his contract up, so he doesn't have to play". This is completely over the top, I'm sorry. At this stage I wonder if it's a case that the media are trying to claw back some credibility after being caught completely sleeping when this guy signed.

The story is still a story because Munster and IRFU had the exact same stance as you; they just wanted it to go away, and they figured it would. Just like the way no one noticed or cared when he signed because of the Lions, it was a good bet that European Rugby and Six Nations squad would hog the attention and it would fade out. So they kept the heads down and waited.

But it didn't pan out that way. It was easy enough to dismiss the initial questions as click bait in a slow week and posters here jumped all over that, the old "fake news- sad!" defence. So far, so good.

This week, however , the tone changed. Donal Lenihan - a bona fide Munster legend, an Ireland captain - wrote a column on it. Former player after former player from ALL provinces came out against it, you had Henshaw looking very uncomfortable when questioned - so it became impossible to ignore.

And then they decided to respond. Philip Browne gave the most garbled answers in which he simultaneously defended Grobler and hung him out to dry. If you want a laugh, watch the growing terror on the face of the IRFU press guy as a car crash unfolds on his watch.

Munster then came out with a statement that was just incredibly ham fisted, it's beyond belief that it was drafted by a pro sports organisation.

Both Munster and Browne just created more questions than they answered so on it rumbles.

And all the while, there's the narrative building that everyone is agin'us, that this is only a story because it's Munster, and some fans are getting their backs up so much that we were facing the prospect of not only having a "drugs cheat" playing at Thomond but getting a rapturous ovation for doing so. That forced Munster's hand on his selection for Castres. They simply couldn't pick him. Now we have a guy who played 20 games for Racing last season togging out for Munster A in an obscure turkey shoot in Cork.

So yeah, this story could easily have blown over by now. The fact that it hasn't is due to an organisation stonewalling legitimate media questions and hoping it all went away. If Munster/IRFU had headed this off at the pass with a vanilla statement on day one or two, a few bullet points was all that was needed, then it would have been a story for a day or two and we'd all have gone back to discussing Zebo.

That it's run for so long is not the fault of the dastardly media.

Munster's Gerbrandt Grobler signing - right or wrong?

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