Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

A question about Church sexual abuse

  • 17-01-2018 08:22PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭


    It was the 90s all the sexual scandals broke their way into the media.

    For people who lived in the 60s I am sure many had to be aware.
    What did you do did you just keep your mouth shut?


    Let's face it the local kiddie fiddler priests held high places of respect.
    Was it the children can go to Hell I am not losing face?

    For any priests that were not dirty perverts they kept their silence and they were every bit as guilty.

    What baffles me is so called decent people kept their mouths shut.
    Can anybody in their late 50s or 60s explain this to the rest of us?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    For any priests that were not dirty perverts they kept their silence and they were every bit as guilty.

    My dad would be in your target age group with the question and genuinely didn't know....(but my family wouldn't be most religious going back generations anyways)

    The priest in his parish growing up was seemingly shell shocked from ww1 so deffo didn't get up to anything funny



    But the fact other priests known and not told anyone and kept quiet put him off going to mass


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    It was fear. You didn't speak out against the church because of fear. Im not of that vintage op, but I know enough people who were affected, and who are not afraid to speak about it now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,371 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Only a small few % of priests were at that kind of carry on so for most it just wasn't an issue.

    The auld "all priests are kiddy fiddlers" mantra is getting a bit worn out at this stage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭falinn merking


    Only a small few % of priests were at that kind of carry on so for most it just wasn't an issue.

    The auld "all priests are kiddy fiddlers" mantra is getting a bit worn out at this stage.

    That is not in my post and you know it but nice strawman there.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    I'd say society rotted the church almost as much as the church rotted society. Irish people like a good scape goat; 800 years o f oppression, the catlick church, the bankers repeat until bored etc
    Don't get me wrong, the church needs to have the abuse scandal held over its head until the end of time, but if the can of worms is completely opened there would be plenty of blame to go around.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,371 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    That is not in my post and you know it but nice strawman there.;)

    Indeed it isn't but the usual suspects will be along shortly bringing with them the same auld nonsense they posted in the 100 previous threads similar to this one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭falinn merking


    Indeed it isn't but the usual suspects will be along shortly bringing with them the same auld nonsense they posted in the 100 previous threads similar to this one.

    So there not here yet.

    While we wait for them what do you think of the question I asked in the opening post?
    What is your opinion on peoples silence and lack of action?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    The revelations were a big surprise to many of those who lived through the time.

    The only questionable thing of which I had even a rudimentary awareness was the Magdalen laundries, but I had no idea how harsh the regime was, nor that the women found it very hard to leave them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    When I went to secondary school back in the 80's run by the Christian Brothers, there was one Brother we called Brother Feeler for obvious reasons. It was well known not to be caught alone with him. He was "transferred" to another school after a few stories came out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Indeed it isn't but the usual suspects will be along shortly bringing with them the same auld nonsense they posted in the 100 previous threads similar to this one.

    They never get bored with how boring they are.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,218 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    We really can’t throw our current values through a time warp onto older generations. Things were different and people really saw the church as a higher authority than the law. So even though plenty knew what was going on and I’m sure plenty of them wanted to do something they probably just felt they couldn’t and that they should keep their mouths shut for fear of being pariahs In their own communities.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    The revelations were a big surprise to many of those who lived through the time.

    The only questionable thing of which I had even a rudimentary awareness was the Magdalen laundries, but I had no idea how harsh the regime was, nor that the women found it very hard to leave them.
    The women couldn’t leave because they had no where to go.
    Their families who had dumped them in the convent in the first place definitely didn’t want them back .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭falinn merking


    salmocab wrote: »
    We really can’t throw our current values through a time warp onto older generations. Things were different and people really saw the church as a higher authority than the law. So even though plenty knew what was going on and I’m sure plenty of them wanted to do something they probably just felt they couldn’t and that they should keep their mouths shut for fear of being pariahs In their own communities.

    A bit like saying something very un PC these days?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    It was the 90s all the sexual scandals broke their way into the media.

    For people who lived in the 60s I am sure many had to be aware.
    What did you do did you just keep your mouth shut?


    Let's face it the local kiddie fiddler priests held high places of respect.
    Was it the children can go to Hell I am not losing face?

    For any priests that were not dirty perverts they kept their silence and they were every bit as guilty.

    What baffles me is so called decent people kept their mouths shut.
    Can anybody in their late 50s or 60s explain this to the rest of us?
    This may surprise you and, I suspect, is not what you want to hear but the vast majority of people knew nothing about it and were as taken aback when it started to be reported. So, what did decent people do? Nothing, because they didn't know the slightest thing about it. Of course somebody did but you asked about people in general.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    It was the 90s all the sexual scandals broke their way into the media.

    For people who lived in the 60s I am sure many had to be aware.
    What did you do did you just keep your mouth shut?


    Let's face it the local kiddie fiddler priests held high places of respect.
    Was it the children can go to Hell I am not losing face?

    For any priests that were not dirty perverts they kept their silence and they were every bit as guilty.

    What baffles me is so called decent people kept their mouths shut.
    Can anybody in their late 50s or 60s explain this to the rest of us?


    Having talked to many people who were the victims of such abuses back then, it was simply the case that people didn't care.

    Now obviously if a person didn't care, they were never going to admit that, and it's rather like the whole situation that's going on in Hollywood at the moment - everyone knew, but nobody knew.

    In other words, it simply suited peoples own purposes back then, as it does now, to turn a blind eye and pretend these things don't happen any more, pretend to be shocked when it comes out that actually these things do happen, and they are still happening, and they will continue to happen.

    For one simple reason - children do not have the power that adults do, and when it is reinforced in children that they have no power, it can take decades for them as adults to overcome that fear of social exclusion, humiliation and embarrassment, often times only after they feel that the perpetrators are no longer a threat to their safety, either because the perpetrators are dead, or the system in which the perpetrators thrived and were protected no longer exists.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    salmocab wrote: »
    We really can’t throw our current values through a time warp onto older generations. Things were different and people really saw the church as a higher authority than the law. So even though plenty knew what was going on and I’m sure plenty of them wanted to do something they probably just felt they couldn’t and that they should keep their mouths shut for fear of being pariahs In their own communities.

    You can replace 'plenty' with 'some'. Most people hadn't the foggiest notion anything was amiss.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭falinn merking


    This may surprise you and, I suspect, is not what you want to hear but the vast majority of people knew nothing about it and were as taken aback when it started to be reported. So, what did decent people do? Nothing, because they didn't know the slightest thing about it. Of course somebody did but you asked about people in general.

    I accept your full post to be true.

    A small percentage did have awareness and this small percentage was a lot of people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Indeed it isn't but the usual suspects will be along shortly bringing with them the same auld nonsense they posted in the 100 previous threads similar to this one.

    Sorry I’m late. Anyway, I think Fr Ted put it best:
    Not all Catholic priests are paedophiles. Let’s say there are 200 million priests in the world and 5% are paedophiles, that is only ten million.

    I’ll stop spouting the same old nonsense when the church open their files on the pedophine priests, pay the pitifully small amount of damages they agreed to and hand back control of the schools and hospitals. Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,218 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    You can replace 'plenty' with 'some'. Most people hadn't the foggiest notion anything was amiss.

    Well plenty is subjective, I certainly didn’t mean to suggest a majority or even a large minority but I’d still think in relation to what happened that plenty of people knew.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    It was the 90s all the sexual scandals broke their way into the media.

    For people who lived in the 60s I am sure many had to be aware.
    What did you do did you just keep your mouth shut?


    Let's face it the local kiddie fiddler priests held high places of respect.
    Was it the children can go to Hell I am not losing face?

    For any priests that were not dirty perverts they kept their silence and they were every bit as guilty.

    What baffles me is so called decent people kept their mouths shut.
    Can anybody in their late 50s or 60s explain this to the rest of us?

    I opened my gob in the 1980's (79/80 to be precise). I was ostracised, slandered and generally portrayed as satan by both members of the religous order in question and the rest of the school for 'breaking the school code' (which meant discussing what happened in school outside school). Teachers were forbidden from talking to me unless in the strict course of their duties. The head of the order in that school was still speaking about me "in confidence" in the mid 90's, afaik. I was denied jobs, friendships and access to some medical facilities in the area. All of the bastards are dead now, but I still have to deal with the fallout.

    So no, you wouldn't go complaining if you knew what was good for you.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭falinn merking


    Odhinn wrote: »
    I opened my gob in the 1980's (79/80 to be precise). I was ostracised, slandered and generally portrayed as satan by both members of the religous order in question and the rest of the school for 'breaking the school code' (which meant discussing what happened in school outside school). Teachers were forbidden from talking to me unless in the strict course of their duties. The head of the order in that school was still speaking about me "in confidence" in the mid 90's, afaik. I was denied jobs, friendships and access to some medical facilities in the area. All of the bastards are dead now, but I still have to deal with the fallout.

    So no, you wouldn't go complaining if you knew what was good for you.

    Jesus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Jesus.

    I'm 48 now, and there are still places I can't go. There's a lot more to it, but its best not mentioned publically. Could be worse though - I'm not on smack, I managed to (eventually )finish my education, get a job and work for two decades, the proceeds of which I saved and do me in emergencies now and have a roof over my head.

    There's no way I could take on the order involved in court, given their finances and connections - they are actually conspicous by their absence from the official inquiries. Essentially it didn't and doesn't suit anyone that it comes out, given the prestige associated with most of their schools (I was a "pay what you can" student at a private school - a few were taken on each year). The priest who abused me wasn't particularily rough, and I hold no great grudge against him personally, as others were far worse. It's the blackening of my name by that order and the senior priest in that community I hate them for. By the time I tried to report again, I was 16. The gardai didn't even take notes, and said no abuse had ever taken place, leaving with a not well veiled threat or two. That being said, there were out of court payments, and I know who to, but again, I lack the resources.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,715 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I came to Ireland in 1973. My husband was a Catholic and our children were reared as Catholics. He was a teacher in a small, private boys' boarding school run by an order of priests, some of the priests would come to the house on occasion and have a cup of tea. He also had an uncle who was a priest and visited occasionally.

    I had no previous experience of priests beyond the ones that very reluctantly married us abroad. I had no reason to have any opinion on them one way or another. The one or two from the school that called on us to chat were pleasant enough, and I had some interesting discussions with one in particular.

    In all aspects of life the Church was there, which did get on my nerves. You could not organise anything of a social nature without there being a priest involved somewhere along the line. In one case I joined a casual, social discussion group where we talked about life, the universe and everything (but nothing contentious, like sex or women's rights) and the PP saw fit to join the group, freely admitting it was to ensure that we didn't discuss anything 'inappropriate'.

    In another case the Parish Priest/Chairman was asked by the primary school management board (on which I was a Parents' Representative, which was very open minded of the parents :D ) to go to the DoE with a specific request. He had a different opinion, but everyone else was in agreement. We found out more or less by accident that he had actually put his own opinion rather than the Board's (and had been turned down, which destroyed our options). We could do nothing about it as the DoE would not talk to anyone but the Chairman - the priest. He thought he knew best, the department thought he knew best and there was nothing anyone else could do about it. That was what you were up against.

    However, at no time did I hear anything that might suggest any impropriety at all, not at the secondary school or the primary school, or indeed anywhere. I am not suggesting that there was nothing happening, just that I, or anyone I knew, was not aware of any issues.

    I did have a run-in with a nun who wanted my daughter to write with her right hand even though she was left handed. There was no abuse, she told me that Sister said she should use her right hand, I went and had words with Sister and that was the end of that.

    I know that it is difficult now to understand this level of unawareness. There are different attitudes to what is acceptable and what is not. There is an entirely different outlook on what can be repeated outside the home. There is a different approach to guilt and fault. People had far less communication with each other and discussion of what might or might not be happening was 'gossip' and not to be encouraged. Communication with 'authority' was pretty much impossible for the average person.

    It is easy now to say 'why didn't people do this' or 'you should have done that'. It was a different time. It does not make anything right to say that, but time has moved on and we need to make sure that things continue to improve.

    In 40 years time I wonder what the new generation will look back at and say, how could you allow it to happen.

    How could you allow the Travelling community to not educate their children, to live in caravans by the roadside, to not pay tax, or whatever the mores of that future time considers to be most important?

    How could you allow an education system that dictated a person's entire working life by two weeks of exams in their teens? Will they say 'could you not see how unfair - and unproductive - this was'?

    How could you allow a criminal on the streets to re-offend, or imprison him/her without attempting to reehabilitate them? You must have seen how much damage they did?

    How could you allow anti-social families to raise anti-social children to continue the spiral of criminality? You must have known about them?

    Or any number of other things that may in the future be seen as utterly unacceptable? This is not comparing clerical child abuse with the leaving cert of course, this is trying to point out that from a distant vantage point things are much easier to sort than they were on the ground, at the time.

    The church has lost a lot of its power and influence, it will eventually fizzle into insignificance. The next question is, for the benefit of those who like or need to be told how to live, what will take its place? If it becomes a toothless ceremonial as it is in many countries, maybe that will be sufficient. For the moment it is more important that the grip that it still has on some parts of life that do not concern it be loosened, so that it becomes a more accountable and manageable entity that serves, rather than controls, those parts of society that need it. That we can and are doing, and it is much more useful that trying to look back and find someone to blame.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭tara73


    Odhinn wrote: »
    I opened my gob in the 1980's (79/80 to be precise). I was ostracised, slandered and generally portrayed as satan by both members of the religous order in question and the rest of the school for 'breaking the school code' (which meant discussing what happened in school outside school). Teachers were forbidden from talking to me unless in the strict course of their duties. The head of the order in that school was still speaking about me "in confidence" in the mid 90's, afaik. I was denied jobs, friendships and access to some medical facilities in the area. All of the bastards are dead now, but I still have to deal with the fallout.

    So no, you wouldn't go complaining if you knew what was good for you.

    I think this post says it all. It's always easy to be on moral high ground when times changed and ask the people from that times 'why didn't you do anything? why didn't you open your mouth.'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    As someone who was only born in the late 90’s, I had only heard about, but never fully comprehended, the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland when the institution was at the height of it’s power.

    Some of the insights on this thread are a real eye opener and have definitely given me an understanding of how much control the church really had.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭falinn merking


    tara73 wrote: »
    I think this post says it all. It's always easy to be on moral high ground when times changed and ask the people from that times 'why didn't you do anything? why didn't you open your mouth.'

    I had no idea this is the first time I heard of anybody standing up to the church.
    That is why I started the thread as a question.

    And that post was a shocking eyeopener.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭NickNickleby


    Odhinn wrote: »
    I'm 48 now, and there are still places I can't go. There's a lot more to it, but its best not mentioned publically. Could be worse though - I'm not on smack, I managed to (eventually )finish my education, get a job and work for two decades, the proceeds of which I saved and do me in emergencies now and have a roof over my head.

    There's no way I could take on the order involved in court, given their finances and connections - they are actually conspicous by their absence from the official inquiries. Essentially it didn't and doesn't suit anyone that it comes out, given the prestige associated with most of their schools (I was a "pay what you can" student at a private school - a few were taken on each year). The priest who abused me wasn't particularily rough, and I hold no great grudge against him personally, as others were far worse. It's the blackening of my name by that order and the senior priest in that community I hate them for. By the time I tried to report again, I was 16. The gardai didn't even take notes, and said no abuse had ever taken place, leaving with a not well veiled threat or two. That being said, there were out of court payments, and I know who to, but again, I lack the resources.

    you know my own story, which I've now deleted as my identity is known to others on here.

    I hope that you can get to a stage where this something you can put behind you. I think you think a little like i do, that there are 'levels' of evil, and the behaviour of the 'authorities' in this case is appalling. Not only have they failed to protect you, they have actively sought to destroy you. This witch hunt isn't some sad man with a sudden uncontrollable urge, its premeditated and dare I suggest, worse than the original offence (and of course that is not to minimise the seriousness of that either).

    Good luck with everything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I had no idea this is the first time I heard of anybody standing up to the church.
    That is why I started the thread as a question.

    And that post was a shocking eyeopener.


    People were standing up to, and rallying against the Church or the religious orders back then too though btw. It's simply that nobody was prepared to listen then, but the massive abandonment of the RCC in the '90's had less to do with people's revulsion to any scandals, and much more to do with the fact that people generally became wealthier - the poorer classes simply moved up to the middle classes, and the RCC simply wasn't needed any more in people's lives, and that's how the RCC lost it's power and influence in Irish society - it simply became unnecessary, and thereby became irrelevant and held in less regard than it once was.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    I don't know but just one thing from my youth. When I was a very young my farther would threaten to send us to Letterfrack when we were bold - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Joseph%27s_Industrial_School,_Letterfrack . I recall vividly him saying things like "They'll sort ya out there" and similar comments along those lines. I also recall how I felt when he made such comments.

    He had no intention of sending anyone to Letterfrack - it was just an idel threat. My farther would be a stereotypical rural Irish working class farmer who wouldn't be in any way well read, well educated or well travelled. The point is how did he know of this place when he didn't even live in the same county as the so called institution. The only explanation for me is that it was 'common knowledge'.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    I had no idea this is the first time I heard of anybody standing up to the church.
    That is why I started the thread as a question.

    And that post was a shocking eyeopener.

    I might point out that had I a clue of what was going to happen, I never would have said anything.

    The specific incident involved "swimming classes" led by a certain priest - a charming, well read and intelligent man, seemingly, but an arch manipulator as many molesters are. He announced in the first week that we had currently no access to the swimming pool and thus would run to 'build up strength'. After the run it was back to the school for a shower. He had selected certain boys for abuse - in hindsight most of them were also "pay what you can" students with no family connection to the school. He would select the "best boy of the week" and you'd be brought to his rooms and violated therein after the showers. I was got once, and never went back. However I remembered the scream out of one of the lads (who had brain trauma and wasn't quite right) and couldn't keep my gob shut.

    I rang the gardai, they talked to the priest, and though nothing came of it for various reasons he was barred from leaving the school grounds, from teaching, and from being in a closed room with a child. This was solely because he had caused the gardai to arrive in the school, I might add. He was known as an abuser at least two years beforehand, so his crime to the order was indiscretion, rather than molestation. Another Priest there was quite open in front of me about his preference for teenage lads (my name being mud, it didn't matter what I said), but he said he preferred to "pay for his pleasure". I knew he frequented a certain place within walking distance of the school used by rent boys, but at this stage had aquired enough sense to keep that to myself.


Advertisement
Advertisement