Was Catholic Ireland better than Modern Ireland?

seamus · 17-01-2018 01:52PM

Grab All Association wrote: »

were a whole lot happier with what we had.

Yeah people were always happy here, that's why the Irish have never really been known for emigrating.

Oh, wait...

eviltwin · 17-01-2018 01:55PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime(Dublin went from having the lowest murder rate for a capital city in Europe to one of the highest during the Tiger), no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies.

A real sense of community. Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

When were you born?

BarryD2 · 17-01-2018 01:56PM

I think it mostly depends of what your position in society was. If you were what we might loosely classify as 'middle class' now, in profitable employment in a town or a medium/ large farmer, then things were grand and more stable than now. If you were poorer urban dweller or a small farmer/ labourer, then things weren't so bright and you'd be screwed by above.

Note this had little to do with the Catholic church per se, they just maintained a steering position in the first mentioned above.

Ubbquittious · 17-01-2018 01:57PM

A lot of the misery caused by Catholic Ireland was self-inflicted by society itself rather than the government or the church. If you moved to West Cork from some other country in the 1970's and stayed away from the Catholic church you could live a grand old life

A lot of people moved in from places like Holland to get away from the busy stressful urban humdrum, pressure, rules, regulations & property tax and it worked for them.

Until Irish politicians started trying so hard to make the country just like the rest of Europe

BarryD2 · 17-01-2018 01:58PM

D_D wrote: »

Not having statistics indicating the homelessness and poverty rates is not to be confused with it not existing...

Indeed, poorer people previously lived in slums, hovels, ditches and sod houses. No social welfare system beyond the charity of other people, the church and institutions like the mental homes etc.

ancapailldorcha · 17-01-2018 02:01PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

A lot of the misery caused by Catholic Ireland was self-inflicted by society itself rather than the government or the church. If you moved to West Cork from some other country in the 1970's and stayed away from the Catholic church you could live a grand old life

A lot of people moved in from places like Holland to get away from the busy stressful urban humdrum, pressure, rules, regulations & property tax and it worked for them.

Until Irish politicians started trying so hard to make the country just like the rest of Europe

That's absurd. The Church had permeated much of Irish society meaning that simply avoiding them was nearly impossible. It's 2018 and look at how they still wield influence over school curricula and the national broadcaster.

Trying to make the country more European was the best thing (aside from perhaps lowering corporation tax) that any Irish politician has ever done.

sbsquarepants · 17-01-2018 02:02PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

Hardly any crime.

Are you aware that slavery, child trafficking and rape are all technically all illegal?

Asus X540L wrote: »

A real sense of community. Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

Eh, I think you'll find far fewer go hungry today.
Plus if you cram a dozen people into a one room flat, they do indeed technically "have a roof over their heads" doesn't make it the playboy mansion however!

BarryD2 · 17-01-2018 02:03PM

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/mother-would-require-120k-salary-to-make-amount-she-receives-in-state-benefits-court-hears-36497788.html

Modern Ireland is a far better deal, it seems.

Ubbquittious · 17-01-2018 02:05PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's absurd. The Church had permeated much of Irish society meaning that simply avoiding them was nearly impossible. It's 2018 and look at how they still wield influence over school curricula and the national broadcaster.

Trying to make the country more European was the best thing (aside from perhaps lowering corporation tax) that any Irish politician has ever done.

Not absurd at all. I know a good few people who moved here back in the day and never had bother from the Church.

It wasn't as if you had to produce your Catholic membership card and say 6 hail Marys in order to buy a loaf of bread. Plenty of people successfully ignored the church.

Mrs OBumble · 17-01-2018 02:07PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

You could clatter the living sh1t out of your wife and abuse your kids as long as it was behind closed doors.

You still can in many places ...

ancapailldorcha · 17-01-2018 02:08PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Not absurd at all. I know a good few people who moved here back in the day and never had bother from the Church.

It wasn't as if you had to produce your Catholic membership card and say 6 hail Marys in order to buy a loaf of bread. Plenty of people successfully ignored the church.

And I know families that were almost destroyed by them, people who had to emigrate to keep their children and that's before we get into the children at Tuam and the mass abuses. How on Earth people think that this was a better society is beyond me.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 17-01-2018 02:09PM

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Speak for yourself. The 80s (if in scope for "Catholic Ireland") was miserable for a lot of people. 30s-70s (before my time) don't seem to have been much fun either

I grew up in the 70s. I think it was quite a good time. The real grinding poverty of the 30s-50s had been removed from most people's lives (not everyone, of course) but the rampant consumerism of later decades hadn't arrived yet. The majority of children could now expect to stay on in school and complete their Leaving Certificate, but the pressure on everyone to go to College didn't exist. There just seemed to be a better balance between things.

Obviously there were bad things about the 70s too (constant strikes for instance) but overall I think they had a lot of good things about them.

Sleepy · 17-01-2018 02:14PM

A field and a housing estate separate my house from a graveyard with a single headstone for the hundreds (thousands?) buried there who died in a local asylum.

Given that my wife was unmarried when my stepson was born, it's likely she'd have ended up there. Given that my 9 year old daughter was born out of wedlock, it's likely she'd have ended up there (or been sold off abroad). Given my atheism, and unwillingness to kowtow to the Catholic Church, it's likely I'd have ended up there.

I think I'll settle for being regularly irritated by the unwillingness of large amounts of modern Irish society to accept the responsibility for their own choices/actions and general vacuousness of our age TBH.

touts · 17-01-2018 02:15PM

When did we have a "Catholic Ireland" because when you compare Ireland of the past with the teachings of Christ and the supposed core values of the Catholic faith there is very little in common?

The church leaders, politicians and generally all authority figures were evil white male middle-aged bastards who promoted their fellow evil white male middle-aged bastards. It had little to do with the faith flag they wrapped around themselves. You could drop them into ISIS today and they would thrive like bacteria. "Evil Bastards Ireland" would be a better name.

One eyed Jack · 17-01-2018 02:17PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And I know families that were almost destroyed by them, people who had to emigrate to keep their children and that's before we get into the children at Tuam and the mass abuses. How on Earth people think that this was a better society is beyond me.

They could if they were to ignore what they don't see as any of the negative aspects of society then when comparing it to all the negative aspects of society today. In the same way, anyone who would argue that todays society is better has to ignore what they don't see as all the negative aspects of society today when comparing it to society as it was then.

I would suggest that there's a mixture of both good and bad aspects to society in both periods, but I really don't think Irish society and social attitudes really have changed all that much at all.

17-01-2018 02:19PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

no African gangs terrorizing North Dublin, women not going around dressed like prossies...

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

High mortality rates
Catholic controlled hospitals and schools (still to this day resulting in sub standard care and religious indoctrination)...

Better debates...

17-01-2018 02:22PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's absurd. The Church had permeated much of Irish society meaning that simply avoiding them was nearly impossible.

My father managed it.

You know how? He just didn't bother going to Church and had no great time for it all. As did many people. He wasn't seething with anger about it, or banging on about cults and indoctrination, it wasn't obligatory to be a practising Catholic, and it wasn't for him.

McTigs · 17-01-2018 02:22PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

A lot of the misery caused by Catholic Ireland was self-inflicted by society itself rather than the government or the church. If you moved to West Cork from some other country in the 1970's and stayed away from the Catholic church you could live a grand old life

A lot of people moved in from places like Holland to get away from the busy stressful urban humdrum, pressure, rules, regulations & property tax and it worked for them.

Until Irish politicians started trying so hard to make the country just like the rest of Europe

so we should have remained a backwater because it was a nice place for people other countries with money to escape to? Ah here.

One eyed Jack · 17-01-2018 02:24PM

Sleepy wrote: »

A field and a housing estate separate my house from a graveyard with a single headstone for the hundreds (thousands?) buried there who died in a local asylum.

Given that my wife was unmarried when my stepson was born, it's likely she'd have ended up there. Given that my 9 year old daughter was born out of wedlock, it's likely she'd have ended up there (or been sold off abroad). Given my atheism, and unwillingness to kowtow to the Catholic Church, it's likely I'd have ended up there.

I think I'll settle for being regularly irritated by the unwillingness of large amounts of modern Irish society to accept the responsibility for their own choices/actions and general vacuousness of our age TBH.

That's the thing though, it's unlikely you would have ended up there if you were wealthy enough at the time to avoid it, same as you are now, but there are still many people who aren't, who are still classed by middle class society as being an undesirable social class, on account of how they are perceived as detracting from those people's perception of 'civilised society'.

Your Face · 17-01-2018 02:24PM

Asus X540L wrote: »

Ok most people didn't have fancy goods but everyone had a roof over their heads and never went hungry unlike today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

17-01-2018 02:26PM

I lived through the Pope visit with rapists and priests that had fathered children on the same alter as John Paul. I lived through the Kerry babies thing the first time round, the original abortion referendum, several divorce referendums, we had to watch family solidarity and SPUC on the TV. At a time when it was illegal to be gay let alone married. At a time when Irish babies were taken from their mothers and SOLD to the highest bidder. We call it human trafficking when other countries do it but here is was God's work.

Ah yeah I miss the good old days

FFS

Ubbquittious · 17-01-2018 02:26PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And I know families that were almost destroyed by them, people who had to emigrate to keep their children and that's before we get into the children at Tuam and the mass abuses. How on Earth people think that this was a better society is beyond me.

Yet the vast majority of Irish people even got away unscathed. Just like with the people who "had to emigrate" during the recession emigration was rarely the only viable option. Maybe the easiest or the most profitable but not the only one.

Anyone who bought into the sh1te the Church peddled during those days and put pressure on their family members or friends is as much to blame as the Church itself, perhaps even moreso.

17-01-2018 02:29PM

Still, it only took a single income to buy a house in Dublin; nowadays two people must work to pay for the exact same house. Not exactly advancement by any definition. For some reason people can overlook that massive infringement on our personal freedom in 2018.

Also, despite the often abject poverty the state built thousands of houses for poor people per year - an enormous 130, 000 under the much demonised De Valera in the 1930s. Today, this much richer state for ideological reasons abnegates its duty to build social housing and tries to shift the obligation on to what the new god, "the market" and its ministers the property developers, will accept. Again, not what I'd view as progress.

Perhaps in 50 years time people will have less rose-tinted glasses about the current consumerist, inequality-boosting capitalist ideology we are living through. Decades ago you questioned the fundamentalism of the RCC at your peril. Now, you question the fundamentalism of our dominant "let the market decide" economic ideology at your peril.

JupiterKid · 17-01-2018 02:31PM

Absolutely not. It was backward, poor, stifling and oppressive.

Those who yearn for a return to those days have either never experienced it or are seriously deluded.

One eyed Jack · 17-01-2018 02:42PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Anyone who bought into the sh1te the Church peddled during those days and put pressure on their family members or friends is as much to blame as the Church itself, perhaps even moreso.

Don't mention the Tithe War :pac:

Or Catholic Emancipation for that matter.

Goes against the whole notion that the RCC were an oppressive force, when it was actually the people at the time who were the RCC who wanted society the way it was then, and actually had an ingrained "what will the neighbours think?" and "keeping up with the jones" mentality, no different than today.

Sleepy · 17-01-2018 02:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Still, it only took a single income to buy a house in Dublin; nowadays two people must work to pay for the exact same house. Not exactly advancement by any definition. For some reason people can overlook that massive infringement on our personal freedom in 2018.

Since my house was built in 1920, and we bought it as a single income family, I think I'd dispute that assertion.

Nor is it the exact same house since it's been extended, re-wired and generally thoroughly modernised since 1920...

Annasopra · 17-01-2018 02:49PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I really don't think Irish society and social attitudes really have changed all that much at all.

Do you think the result of the marriage equality referendum could have happened 20 years ago?

Irish Guitarist · 17-01-2018 02:51PM

When did Catholic Ireland end and when did modern Ireland begin?

I did a FAS training course (it was really just something for school drop outs) when I was sixteen in 1992. It was supposed to be a course for learning carpentry but in a lot of ways it was like being in school with different 'classes'. There was a trainee priest teaching one of these 'classes'. One day he brought in either his gay brother or cousin who had HIV to talk about safe sex. I later heard that he had brought in condoms to hand out but the woman running the course had stopped him.

I don't know what ever happened to the trainee priest but he was likeable and seemed progressive.

I remember one of the other lads there saying "keep your arse against the wall" when the gay man was talking to us. Later on when we went back to the usual carpentry 'class' the instructor, who probably would have been about 60 at the time, was joking with this idiot about the gay man. He said "he doesn't look like one of them". I remember thinking it wasn't a particularly nice way to talk about someone that was trying to stop teenagers making the same mistake he had made. His message seemed to have been lost on most people there.

Wibbs · 17-01-2018 02:56PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Since my house was built in 1920, and we bought it as a single income family, I think I'd dispute that assertion.

Oh it can be done S, but it's a lot harder for a single income to get a mortgage and buy a property today. Yes we have more "stuff" and that's great, but the cost of living is much higher than it was.

....... · 17-01-2018 02:57PM

This post has been deleted.

Was Catholic Ireland better than Modern Ireland?

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