The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Spanish Eyes · 12-01-2018 06:22PM

Look up Family and Life.

Where is their funding coming from?

Loafing Oaf · 12-01-2018 06:27PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Since up to now we have turned a blind eye to the thousands of women who go to Britain or elsewhere to terminate, I often wonder at the lack of extremism in those countries that provide the service in Europe (many of whom are Catholic) about the issue.

I often wonder if the same level of debate applied when abortion was introduced in Italy/Spain say for example, or was it democracy in action or something.

Never hear a peep now about any country in Europe that provides abortion apart from Malta and Ireland.

What is the reason for the acceptance everywhere else do you think?

Well pretty much everywhere else in Europe has long accepted the enlightenment and the separation of church and state. So when 'liberal abortion' became a thing In the 60s and 70s, it was generally adopted as just one more extension of individual freedoms. Reading a biography of Roy Jenkins a while ago, I had the general impression that he was pushing at an open door with his 'liberal reforms'.

c.p.w.g.w · 12-01-2018 06:29PM

Has there been any word from government on what will replace the 8th Amendment?

Or are we just voting on whether to remove it or not?

Spanish Eyes · 12-01-2018 06:32PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well pretty much everywhere else in Europe has long accepted the enlightenment and the separation of church and state. So when 'liberal abortion' became a thing In the 60s and 70s, it was generally adopted as just one more extension of individual freedoms. Reading a biography of Roy Jenkins a while ago, I had the general impression that he was pushing at an open door with his 'liberal reforms'.

Ah yes, the adoption of individual freedoms outside the Church's dictats. The State should provide for everyone surely.

Odhinn · 12-01-2018 06:34PM

Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »

Isaac burke (a self-identified Christian anti-choicer) keeps appearing on my youtube ads. He is complaining his group has been bullied & silenced in NUI, Galway for 4 years

Is this the start of the flow of “keep the 8th money” from the US or maybe his parents are paying for this?

His parents, going on this
http://www.rabble.ie/2014/03/04/irelands-phelps-family-and-nuig/

Spanish Eyes · 12-01-2018 06:49PM

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Has there been any word from government on what will replace the 8th Amendment?

Or are we just voting on whether to remove it or not?

There will be a Heads of Bill outlining the rules, such as twelve weeks, FFA and etc. I think.

But sure we know all that already.

c.p.w.g.w · 12-01-2018 06:53PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There will be a Heads of Bill outlining the rules, such as twelve weeks, FFA and etc. I think.

But sure we know all that already.

But will those things be voted on, or will they need to be agreed before the repeal or not vote takes place

Loafing Oaf · 12-01-2018 06:55PM

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Has there been any word from government on what will replace the 8th Amendment?

Or are we just voting on whether to remove it or not?

This is the most significant news on that front since the committee report, buried in the middle of an IT article

The Government will continue to prepare legislation along the lines of the committee recommendations, with the intention of publishing the heads of a Bill to allow abortion — which would include a summary of the Bill’s intentions – before any referendum. No other legislative proposals on abortion are being prepared.

Going by that, it will be, to paraphrase John Hume, abortion on demand (within 12 weeks) or nothing.

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2018 06:56PM

....... wrote: »

Are you back with this nonsense plus added personal attacks now?

I was going to let your last effort go, but after seeing you of all people complain about anyone using personal attacks? You've done little else throughout this entire thread! :pac:

Like this for instance -

....... wrote: »

Again, for someone who claims to have so much mysterious experience with pregnant women you are sadly ignorant of the factual reality out there.

Where did I make any such claim first of all?

Secondly, whether you think I'm ignorant of what you call "the factual reality" (which is really just your opinion and therefore not in any way factual), is literally just that - your opinion, informed by your own bias, and that's why when you accuse me of this -

....... wrote: »

Right - so if you understand the facts - then stop minimising them.

I have to remind you yet again that you don't get to determine how I make my arguments, nor do you get to determine what perspective I make my arguments from, nor do you get to determine what I should and shouldn't consider relevant in the context of the 8th amendment, nor do you get to determine that I should have to make my arguments to suit your argument, nor do I nor anyone else have to answer any of your questions, nor do I nor anyone else have to justify themselves to you, nor do I nor anyone else even owe you the courtesy of taking you seriously.

In short, you have far more in common with the authoritarian egotists you despise, than you have anything in common with the people you claim to advocate for. You might want to examine your own attitude before you start complaining about the attitudes of others and how they're doing the pro-choice side any favours, because you sure as hell aren't.

Spanish Eyes · 12-01-2018 06:57PM

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

But will those things be voted on, or will they need to be agreed before the repeal or not vote takes place

Why are you asking me?

No the Bill will not be voted on by us individually. That is for the Oireachtas to vote on, on our behalf. Democracy rules.

If the referendum is carried, abortion will no longer be cast ironed in the Constitution, so will be legislated for, going forward and all that.

c.p.w.g.w · 12-01-2018 07:00PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why are you asking me?

No the Bill will not be voted on by us individually. That is for the Oireachtas to vote on, on our behalf. Democracy rules.

If the referendum is carried, abortion will no longer be cast ironed in the Constitution, so will be legislated for, going forward and all that.

I was asking, because i don't know exactly what the current situation is...

I would of thought that gathering all the information is important before voting...

I'm all for abortion on demand(well all for people having the option of getting it done in Ireland), but i think the time limit is very important.

The government haven't confirmed anything yet, or if they did i have missed it

Annasopra · 12-01-2018 07:05PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The reason I used the word potential with regards to the 8th amendment Joey is because of the many, many women who have been pregnant and who have given birth since the inception of the 8th amendment, a negligible amount of those women will have been negatively affected by it's existence. That's not downplaying it's negative effects, it's an acknowledgement that the negative effects are often over-stated by opponents to the 8th amendment.

In other words you are minimising the effects. As I said you are tying yourself up in knots to say "No I am not saying X". The truth is you are saying very clearly. You are repeatedly at every step minimising the negative effects and implications of the 8th amendment.

Dressing them up as "potential" suggests exist. They do. You really are tying yourself in so many nonsense knots here.

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2018 07:08PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

In other words you are minimising the effects. As I said you are tying yourself up in knots to say "No I am not saying X". The truth is you are saying very clearly. You are repeatedly at every step minimising the negative effects and implications of the 8th amendment.

Dressing them up as "potential" suggests exist. They do. You really are tying yourself in so many nonsense knots here.

I'm not Joey, but if you choose to interpret anything I've said that way, then there's nothing I can do about that.

Annasopra · 12-01-2018 07:12PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I was going to let your last effort go, but after seeing you of all people complain about anyone using personal attacks? You've done little else throughout this entire thread! :pac:

Like this for instance -

Where did I make any such claim first of all?

Secondly, whether you think I'm ignorant of what you call "the factual reality" (which is really just your opinion and therefore not in any way factual), is literally just that - your opinion, informed by your own bias, and that's why when you accuse me of this -

I have to remind you yet again that you don't get to determine how I make my arguments, nor do you get to determine what perspective I make my arguments from, nor do you get to determine what I should and shouldn't consider relevant in the context of the 8th amendment, nor do you get to determine that I should have to make my arguments to suit your argument, nor do I nor anyone else have to answer any of your questions, nor do I nor anyone else have to justify themselves to you, nor do I nor anyone else even owe you the courtesy of taking you seriously.

In short, you have far more in common with the authoritarian egotists you despise, than you have anything in common with the people you claim to advocate for. You might want to examine your own attitude before you start complaining about the attitudes of others and how they're doing the pro-choice side any favours, because you sure as hell aren't.

The truth is at every opportunity you can you are trying to completely minimise to the point of almost denial that the 8th amendment has many negative effects and implications on womens healthcare. I am not sure why you are getting upset when peoole highlight tgis.

Annasopra · 12-01-2018 07:13PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not Joey, but if you choose to interpret anything I've said that way, then there's nothing I can do about that.

I do interpret it that way. It is very very clear for all to see.

Spanish Eyes · 12-01-2018 07:13PM

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I was asking, because i don't know exactly what the current situation is...

I would of thought that gathering all the information is important before voting...

I'm all for abortion on demand(well all for people having the option of getting it done in Ireland), but i think the time limit is very important.

The government haven't confirmed anything yet, or if they did i have missed it

I agree with you in many ways. The referendum on the 8th has been proposed without any information as to what the legislature may propose instead.

But that may be a way of just getting the amendment repealed, and then the legislature will decide on the rules in time.

I think the legislative proposals will be published before the referendum though. I think Vlad said that somewhere.

I doubt very much this referendum will pass. There are anti choice forces out there who have not gone beyond first gear yet. But we shall see.

I don't mind either way as long as it is not hijacked by either pro or anti choice zealots.

There is a middle ground who will make their own minds up.

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2018 07:21PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The truth is at every opportunity you can you are trying to completely minimise to the point of almost denial that the 8th amendment has many negative effects and implications on womens healthcare. I am not sure why you are getting upset when peoole highlight tgis.

I'm not upset at all by anything that anyone has said here. I'd have to have lived a fairly sheltered life for that to happen, and I've heard far worse offline from people who weren't complete strangers.

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2018 07:48PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I do interpret it that way. It is very very clear for all to see.

Perhaps it's because I don't agree with some of the posters here that pregnancy is solely just a women's healthcare issue, or a women's medical care issue, or however they choose to frame it, and in doing so attempt to minimise the fact that pregnancy isn't just solely a women's healthcare or women's medical care or women's issue. It's very much like the way the 8th amendment is a Constitutional issue, and that's why it's not only pregnant women who get to vote on whether it is repealed or not.

Even at that, I wouldn't be too certain that were it only pregnant women were allowed to vote on the issue, that they would vote the way some posters here would want them to vote.

I'm not at all minimising the negative effects of the 8th amendment, I'm weighing the negative effects of it's existence against the potential negative effects of it's removal. I am therefore acknowledging the negative effects, but for me they do not outweigh the potential negative effects of it's removal.

I hope that makes my position clearer, as I'm certain I can't be any clearer, and if you still think I'm minimising the negative effects of the 8th amendment, then you're only looking at one side of the story and minimising the potential negative effects of the removal of the 8th amendment in order to do so.

Bannasidhe · 12-01-2018 07:55PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Perhaps it's because I don't agree with some of the posters here that pregnancy is solely just a women's healthcare issue, or a women's medical care issue, or however they choose to frame it, and in doing so attempt to minimise the fact that pregnancy isn't just solely a women's healthcare or women's medical care or women's issue. It's very much like the way the 8th amendment is a Constitutional issue, and that's why it's not only pregnant women who get to vote on whether it is repealed or not.

Even at that, I wouldn't be too certain that were it only pregnant women were allowed to vote on the issue, that they would vote the way some posters here would want them to vote.

I'm not at all minimising the negative effects of the 8th amendment, I'm weighing the negative effects of it's existence against the potential negative effects of it's removal. I am therefore acknowledging the negative effects, but for me they do not outweigh the potential negative effects of it's removal.

I hope that makes my position clearer, as I'm certain I can't be any clearer, and if you still think I'm minimising the negative effects of the 8th amendment, then you're only looking at one side of the story and minimising the potential negative effects of the removal of the 8th amendment in order to do so.

This reads to me that essentially you believe that those already born, breathing, living, women who are impacted - in some cases dying - because of the 8th are merely collateral damage in some ethical battle to 'save' potential living, breathing, people.
Any women (or girl) who is 'of child bearing age' in Ireland could be the next victim but that is a necessary step...

That is awful.

uptherebels · 12-01-2018 08:07PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The reason I used the word potential with regards to the 8th amendment Joey is because of the many, many women who have been pregnant and who have given birth since the inception of the 8th amendment, a negligible amount of those women will have been negatively affected by it's existence. That's not downplaying it's negative effects, it's an acknowledgement that the negative effects are often over-stated by opponents to the 8th amendment.

Again you have any evidence to support this claim? As you have been shown that the 8th affects more pregnant women than just those who want an abortion.
Your very good at making claims and portraying them as fact but very poor at actually providing any evidence of such claims.

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2018 08:11PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This reads to me that essentially you believe that those already born, breathing, living, women who are impacted - in some cases dying - because of the 8th are merely collateral damage in some ethical battle to 'save' potential living, breathing, people.
Any women (or girl) who is 'of child bearing age' in Ireland could be the next victim but that is a necessary step...

That is awful.

Must you really read malicious intent into everything I write?

Can you not possibly imagine that for most people they would be terribly conflicted by an issue that for them is incredibly complex and isn't just a matter of looking at an issue only from one perspective?

The people you're arguing with are also born, living, breathing human beings who are also impacted by the decisions of others, who themselves are born, living, breathing human beings, and not the caricatured, devoid of any human empathy, monsters or people who haven't the intellectual capacity to have thought about this issue, that you and others seem so fond of painting them out to be, simply because they don't see the world the same way you do.

NuMarvel · 12-01-2018 08:11PM

Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »

Isaac burke (a self-identified Christian anti-choicer) keeps appearing on my youtube ads. He is complaining his group has been bullied & silenced in NUI, Galway for 4 years

Is this the start of the flow of “keep the 8th money” from the US or maybe his parents are paying for this?

The Burkes of Mayo. They set up the Campaign for Conscience to campaign against civil partnership, and Mandate for Marriage to campaign against the marriage equality. So presumably their anti-repeal group will alliterate with the letter A.

Most famous for: the mother and one of the sons calling Liveline at the same time to complain about the marriage equality referendum and pretending they didn't know each other!

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

I was asking, because i don't know exactly what the current situation is...

I would of thought that gathering all the information is important before voting...

I'm all for abortion on demand(well all for people having the option of getting it done in Ireland), but i think the time limit is very important.

The government haven't confirmed anything yet, or if they did i have missed it

Nothing's been confirmed yet. It'll be next month at the earliest before they announce what change to the constitution we'll be voting on, and probably March at the earliest before they announce what legislation they're proposing should we vote to change the constitution.

However, we have a reasonably good idea of what's expected based on the report released last month by the Oireachtas Committee.

Annasopra · 12-01-2018 08:14PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Perhaps it's because I don't agree with some of the posters here that pregnancy is solely just a women's healthcare issue, or a women's medical care issue, or however they choose to frame it, and in doing so attempt to minimise the fact that pregnancy isn't just solely a women's healthcare or women's medical care or women's issue. It's very much like the way the 8th amendment is a Constitutional issue, and that's why it's not only pregnant women who get to vote on whether it is repealed or not.

Even at that, I wouldn't be too certain that were it only pregnant women were allowed to vote on the issue, that they would vote the way some posters here would want them to vote.

I'm not at all minimising the negative effects of the 8th amendment, I'm weighing the negative effects of it's existence against the potential negative effects of it's removal. I am therefore acknowledging the negative effects, but for me they do not outweigh the potential negative effects of it's removal.

I hope that makes my position clearer, as I'm certain I can't be any clearer, and if you still think I'm minimising the negative effects of the 8th amendment, then you're only looking at one side of the story and minimising the potential negative effects of the removal of the 8th amendment in order to do so.

But this is minimising.

Oh what are the negative effects
Oh they are small compared to having no 8th amendment.

As I said earlier you are minimising while at the same time tying yourself up in numerous knots saying you are not minimising. Quite bizarre really.

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2018 08:19PM

uptherebels wrote: »

Again you have any evidence to support this claim? As you have been shown that the 8th affects more pregnant women than just those who want an abortion.
Your very good at making claims and portraying them as fact but very poor at actually providing any evidence of such claims.

I've never denied that the 8th amendment affects more than just pregnant women who want an abortion. It affects every single person living in this country, including those yet to be born. I have claimed that the number of women who have been negatively affected by the 8th amendment is negligible in terms of the number of women who have been pregnant and have given birth in this country since the inception of the 8th amendment. I would never claim anything as fact as that's solely my opinion, so if you interpreted what I said as claiming it was fact, you really shouldn't have.

Annasopra · 12-01-2018 08:29PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've never denied that the 8th amendment affects more than just pregnant women who want an abortion. It affects every single person living in this country, including those yet to be born. I have claimed that the number of women who have been negatively affected by the 8th amendment is negligible in terms of the number of women who have been pregnant and have given birth in this country since the inception of the 8th amendment. I would never claim anything as fact as that's solely my opinion, so if you interpreted what I said as claiming it was fact, you really shouldn't have.

Exactly. You are minimising the negative effects of the 8th.

Bannasidhe · 12-01-2018 08:32PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Must you really read malicious intent into everything I write?

Can you not possibly imagine that for most people they would be terribly conflicted by an issue that for them is incredibly complex and isn't just a matter of looking at an issue only from one perspective?

The people you're arguing with are also born, living, breathing human beings who are also impacted by the decisions of others, who themselves are born, living, breathing human beings, and not the caricatured, devoid of any human empathy, monsters or people who haven't the intellectual capacity to have thought about this issue, that you and others seem so fond of painting them out to be, simply because they don't see the world the same way you do.

Step away from the drama.

You have said, several times, that you are aware that the 8th has had a negative impact on some women's health and well-being but that, for you, that is outweighed by the benefits of having the 8th in place.

You may not like how others interpret your statements but I am not the only one who thinks this is how you feel.

A vote to retain the 8th in it's current form is a vote to retain the current situation.

It is a vote which says that some women will die but that is a necessary 'evil' in order to protect the unborn. What is that if not an acceptable amount of collateral damage for a perceived 'greater good'?

You may not like it put that bluntly but the reality is there is nothing complex or nuanced about that. It is what has been happening for over 30 years.

sondagefaux · 12-01-2018 08:38PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Since up to now we have turned a blind eye to the thousands of women who go to Britain or elsewhere to terminate, I often wonder at the lack of extremism in those countries that provide the service in Europe (many of whom are Catholic) about the issue.

I often wonder if the same level of debate applied when abortion was introduced in Italy/Spain say for example, or was it democracy in action or something.

Never hear a peep now about any country in Europe that provides abortion apart from Malta and Ireland.

What is the reason for the acceptance everywhere else do you think?

It could be linked to emigration. Both Malta and Ireland have had high rates of emigration traditionally until relatively recently, usually of young people.

An older society is likely to be more socially conservative - look at how Poland has gone in recent years, coinciding with several years of high emigration.

Malta has only recently legalised divorce, although, like Ireland, there seems to have been a major shift in attitudes towards gay people and Malta is now one of the few jurisdictions in the world where same-sex marriage is legally available.

I don't know if there's going to be any interest in the upcoming Irish referendum in Malta, although if it does decide to move towards liberalising it's abortion laws, it's likely that the debate will be conducted on similar lines to the Irish debate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38235264

thee glitz · 12-01-2018 08:47PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A vote to retain the 8th in it's current form is a vote to retain the current situation.

It is a vote which says that some women will die but that is a necessary 'evil' in order to protect the unborn. What is that if not an acceptable amount of collateral damage for a perceived 'greater good'?

Promoting abortion on demand as being the result of repealing the 8th is also putting women's lives in danger, by making it less likely to pass.

Bannasidhe · 12-01-2018 08:50PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Promoting abortion on demand as being the result of repealing the 8th is also putting women's lives in danger, by making it less likely to pass.

Lovely soundbite and all but where is your proof of that?

NuMarvel · 12-01-2018 08:53PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Promoting abortion on demand as being the result of repealing the 8th is also putting women's lives in danger, by making it less likely to pass.

In other words, the 8th puts women's lives at risk. By jove, I think we've finally hit common ground!

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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