Breaking: At least 1 man dead after stabbing rampage in Dundalk

Tell me how wrote: »

I hear what you're saying, clearly, but it still didn't answer the question I asked. But that's fine.

Seeing as you assumed my position km this, let me clarify it. (At least you'll consider it).
I'm not suggesting there aren't problems with refugees relocating in to new cultures.

But I don't agree that it can't work. I think as humans, we, and them should want to make it work.

As it stands, I do think they need to integrate more but I don't think threatening them with expulsion and assuming they are plotting to kill us will help.

Not only that but adopting a "them and us" approach is likely to cause far more problems than it would solve. The countries that have the worst experiences with multiculturalism are the ones where integration between communities is very poor.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

What do you think is going to happen to all those thousands of migrants wherever they land?...all stuck together in some neighbourhood and it won't be long before ghettoisation occurs

Its already occurred. I live between the two Mosques in D8, its a real eye opener.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

What do you think is going to happen to all those thousands of migrants wherever they land?...all stuck together in some neighbourhood and it won't be long before ghettoisation occurs

It's the job of any country to encourage the full integration of all communities who live within that society.

The countries that have the least problems with terrorism, criminality, violence etc are the ones who have the best record with integration.

Tell me how wrote: »

So what to do?
Turn them away or try to integrate them? (Which isn't easy)

As said previously, the Irish as late as 5-10 yrs ago travelled in droves out of the country. Does that not suggest we should be tolerant of those coming here?

About the Irish over the last 5-10yrs. Most of this was all perfectly legal immigration. In many cases the destination countries were actively looking for immigrants to fill specific needs in the labour market - even presenting at jobs fairs here. Also a lot of it is transitory - many will go to Canada/US/Australia/Middle-East spend a few years working and move back home. All the while being self-sufficient over there. Those that have gone to the US and overstayed illegally - well that's their risk. If the authorities there catch up with them I'd have no sympathy for them.

Contrast that to the massive immigration that we've seen into say Sweden and Germany. Plenty of these were what I would call genuine asylum seekers. I would have every sympathy for anyone that got caught up in say the Syrian Civil War who weren't part of the uprising itself. Where I disagree with the policy response that we've seen is that it's totally unsustainable - there were figures in the media last year about a cost of 250k/head for the refugees in Ballaghadreen. Does that sound like an even remotely sustainable way of helping those afflicted by war/famine/natural disasters around the world? Bear in mind that those that have been able to make it to Europe are a tiny proportion compared to those left in Syria/South Sudan/wherever. I would contend that there has to be much more effective and cost-effective ways of helping a much greater number of people. So I would err on the side of 'turning them away' if that's how you want to phrase it, but doing a vastly better job of helping people closer to the conflict zones.

Make no mistake, if I was in Syria right now I'd be putting my family and myself #1 and would have no qualms at all trying to make it to Europe if I thought we were in danger. Heck, if I was living in any 3rd world country I'd probably give it a go - it would be like a lottery win.

I've no personal beef with any assylum seekers or even with any economic migrants chancing their arm. I just don't see how unfettered migration is going to make the World a much better place.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's not correct. Multiracial does not equal multicultural. Culture is about social norms, values, and expressions of art etc. It's perfectly possible to have a society which welcomes individuals of all colours and nationalities, without accepting that they can live - and more crucially, demand that their children born and raised here live - according to foreign and incompatible social norms.

For instance: I would have absolutely no issue with banning non medical circumcision in Ireland for infants. I find the very concept of it obscene and barbaric. Now, this would straight away mean that Ireland would cease to be a multicultural society - we would be saying to Jewish people, "if you want to live here, you must accept that this aspect of your culture is illegal under Irish law, so if you want to live here, you'll have to leave that part of your culture behind".

Many, many countries do this in all sorts of different ways. If you grew up in Amsterdam then legalised weed is part of your culture, if you come to Ireland, it is not. If you grew up in Ireland and move to America at 18, then drinking at your age is probably part of your culture but it is illegal in America.

This is what multiculturalism means. It doesn't just mean people of different ethnicities living in the same geographic region, it also means allowing them to live according to their own cultural norms as opposed to demanding that they adopt Ireland's. And I have never been fully on board with multiculturalism in the latter manner - for instance, if you teach your daughter that her role in life is to be subservient to men and that she must hide her face in public or be punished at home, that in my view is something which in our culture we should regard as child abuse, and insist that people either refrain from practising that in Ireland or else get the f*ck out of here.

Multiculturalism is *not* the same as multiracialism and it is *not* in any way racist to disagree with or oppose the concept of multiculturalism.

A very good rundown of definitions and I appreciate the education. I wonder though if you actually intended to effectively say that multiculturalism does not exist in Ireland and therefore isn't a problem - or was that accidental? I ask because, whilst it is a cultural norm to smoke marijuana in public buildings in Amsterdam, it is illegal here. Does that mean Ireland effectively is no longer a multicultural country, along with all the other cultural norms which are legal in other countries but which are illegal here? Because if that's your point, then you are admitting that multiculturalism is not a problem here because it effectively doesn't exist.

Going back to the point at hand, I have to make it clear that I am a non-religious person who thinks both Christianity and Islam are both fairly depressing and authoritarian. I am not here to defend the practice of making women wear burkhas anymore so than I am here to defend the horrific practice of forcing rape victims to bear the children of their rapists -- as is of course the law in this lovely little green island whose beautiful and progressive laws are under threat from the foreign hordes (unless of course they fly over to London where all those Muslims have apparently ruined everything and get the treatment they deserve as human beings). But of course, making a woman wear a burka is worse because the burka isn't the 'Irish' way to abuse women right?

Anyway, you appear to be pushing the view that the wearing of the burka is a cultural norm among Muslim immigrants. Any figures for the percentage of Muslim women in Ireland, or the UK even, who cover their faces?

gw80 wrote: »

That would be all great and fantastic, and we could hold hands across the world and sing kumbya,
I have no problem with educated, intelligent, hard working people who understand the world coming to Europe to do well, but thats not whats happening here, what we are getting here is the dregs and criminals and the wasters of the north and sub SaharanAfrica, the guys who have probably murdered and robbed their way to Europe on the fantasy of an easy life here.
What do you think is going to happen when they realise the dream is just that, a dream.
They are going to turn to crime, because a lot of them do not have skills that we need, are uneducated and cannot speak the language, do you think they are going to be happy sitting in some asylum or refugee centre to sit out the rest of their days.

You've been reading too much of the Daily Express and Daily Mail. What possible evidence do you have that the vast majority of asylum seekers to Europe are "criminals, wasters and murderers"? Those far right rags aiming nonsensical rubbish at their bigoted / racist audience are not evidence of anything.

Tell me how wrote: »

I wouldn't be someone who holds this belief but I do belive there are common personality traits seen in every society.

You take 1000 people from any grouping and you'll find a similar breakdown of grafters, chancers, geniuses, idiots, etc.

Social norms and mores differ vastly depending on what part of the planet you're on.

Heinous crimes such as the one linked in the link below go way beyond what I'd have ever thought possible in a developed society like Italy in this case.


http://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news/italia/13295496/immigrato-somalo-roma-entra-sala-parto-tenta-violentare-partoriente.html

Strazdas wrote: »

You've been reading too much of the Daily Express and Daily Mail. What possible evidence do you have that the vast majority of asylum seekers to Europe are "criminals, wasters and murderers"? Those far right rags aiming nonsensical rubbish at their bigoted / racist audience are not evidence of anything.

I never said the vast majority of them were,
And I dont think I have ever even held any of those news papers in my hands let alone read one,
Nice covert way of calling me a racist though

Ronaldinho wrote:

Maybe you have another name for it? Or a more long winded way of describing it?

Here's an article in The Spectator by the man who coined the phrase.

So anyone with a moral compass is a virtue signaller?

Cool, where can I get my badge?

Also, what do you call someone without a moral compass?

Tell me how wrote: »

So anyone with a moral compass is a virtue signaller?

Cool, where can I get my badge?

Eh - I never said any of that so you can lay off putting words in my mouth.

The term and phenomenon exist - simples.

Strazdas wrote: »

What would be the alternative to trying to have an integrated society? Go the Trump-esque route of attempting to ban or reduce immigration and build a wall around the country? The right wing solutions are easily the worst ones - most countries who lurch to the right and go for "security", borders and law and order solutions invariably end up with a deeply divided country and divided communities.

Brexit Britain seems to have descended into chaos, with a foul, toxic atmosphere and people at each other's throats - and this is supposed to be all in the name of reducing or stopping immigration and bringing back hard borders.

Yes that seems like a real problem in Japanese society, all the violence and divison between Japanese and...er other Japanese. (Truth be told there are some intriguing trends going on with in japan atm but for the sake of simplicity) All the terror attacks, bombings and civil strife: except of course there is little of that. And dont give me the aging population bit either, we face the same problem plus the difficutly of dealing with an enormous movement of population.