Number26/N26 Mastercard/Account now for Irish Residents

pasquale83 · 25-12-2017 09:18PM

I recently paid motorway tolls with N26 card (in Italy) and cannot see some of the transactions. Does anybody have had the same issue?

Quackster · 26-12-2017 12:42AM

pasquale83 wrote: »

I recently paid motorway tolls with N26 card (in Italy) and cannot see some of the transactions. Does anybody have had the same issue?

Toll payments generally aren't processed in real time, although I'd expect them to be processed by the toll operator within 24 hours. Maybe some operators in Italy process batches less frequently or there's a delay with one particular operator.

Elessar · 26-12-2017 01:14PM

Recently tried to use my N26 card for purchases in Germany but a lot of places didn't accept it. I found it strange considering they are based there. Seems to be coded as a credit card even though it says debit card - mind you some places would not take a credit card either, only German bank cards or cash. I wonder how German citizens use it?

Yggr of Asgard · 26-12-2017 02:13PM

Elessar wrote: »

Recently tried to use my N26 card for purchases in Germany but a lot of places didn't accept it. I found it strange considering they are based there. Seems to be coded as a credit card even though it says debit card - mind you some places would not take a credit card either, only German bank cards or cash. I wonder how German citizens use it?

They try to use the Maestro card variant they get.

In Germany most shops do only accept what is called the girokarte (similar to what we had with Laser). These days the girokarte is co-branded with maestro or vpay so that it can be used internationally.

They use girokarte because it's cheaper for the retailer, in fact most retailers won't even use the card element (higher fee) but rather convert the transaction into a direct debit. I.e. you give the retailer permission to do a one time direct debit from your account when you pay with the card. Only if you are a blacklist or you choose to do so (new EU rules) they will do the transaction via the card payment system rather than direct debit. German people often still refer to their card as "EC" despite that no longer being in existence and that trademark now with mastercard.

German N26 customers use the mastercard outside germany or at those retailers which have now started to accept credit cards (which is growing).

But as you experienced often retailers want girocard. N26 is not even a real girocard so unless the retailer also accepts maestro they might also have to use cash.

Bob24 · 26-12-2017 04:59PM

So basically most German businesses won’t take payments from foreign cards?

This really sounds strange: if it is that case as a tourist or business traveller I would find that pretty backwards and be annoyed about it :-s

Fred Swanson · 26-12-2017 05:03PM

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Yggr of Asgard · 26-12-2017 05:12PM

Bob24 wrote: »

So basically most German businesses won’t take payments from foreign cards?

This really sounds strange: if it is that case as a tourist or business traveller I would find that pretty backwards and be annoyed about it :-s

Nothing strange about it, every country has some local preferred payment systems. In the Netherlands you can in most shops pay with your maestro card (giving that it's very cheap for the merchant) but you can't use you Mastercard (even it it's debit or prepaid), it requires the maestro logo.

In Germany most stores take the girocard (or by virtue of the cobranding now maestro/vpay) but not "credit cards". German refer to credit cards to cards with mastercard/visa logo even if it's a debit card. The concept of a debit mastercard/visa is relatively new to the country.

Larger stores (and chains) are mostly accepting mastercard/visa branded cards (debit/credit) but you should always check, especially in restaurants as those of the tourist path might not accept credit cards or have minimum spending requirements.

Germans don't like credit cards, it's just a small percentage of people who own credit cards (and most of those are not really credit cards but charge cards which have to be paid back once a month). It's very unusual for the average German to have a real credit card (paid back in installments). There are only a few banks offering such cards.

You should have no problem using your mastercard/visa branded card (debit/credit) in hotels, large chain stores, aldi/lidl (they recently started) or tourist frequented areas but you might find a shop in the middle of nowhere accepting it.

This is why N26 is also issuing Maestro cards to German account holders, so that they can pay in those stores. However those are not Girocards which is why there are some shops they won't work in.

Jim2007 · 26-12-2017 07:43PM

Elessar wrote: »

Recently tried to use my N26 card for purchases in Germany but a lot of places didn't accept it. I found it strange considering they are based there. Seems to be coded as a credit card even though it says debit card - mind you some places would not take a credit card either, only German bank cards or cash. I wonder how German citizens use it?

This is closer to normal than strange on mainland Europe. Generally most people will pay cash or use some kind of nationally accepted debit card or one co-branded with Maestro. In Switzerland it is the PostFinance Card (PF) and in Germany I believe it is the GiroCard or something like that.

In general credit cards are not that widely used of the tourist track. Here in Switzerland I can tell you most of my local shops etc are cash or the PF card only. People tend to finance their PayPal account with a cash transfer and the credit in the credit card is the time between when you buy the item and when you pay of the card in full each month.

Bob24 · 26-12-2017 08:43PM

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Nothing strange about it, every country has some local preferred payment systems. In the Netherlands you can in most shops pay with your maestro card (giving that it's very cheap for the merchant) but you can't use you Mastercard (even it it's debit or prepaid), it requires the maestro logo.

Having a local preferred payment system is one thing and is fine. But not accepting international payment systems as a fallback option is another thing which I don’t think is friendly to international visitors (I guess the question is what is the percentage of shops who don’t support them, if it’s only a few percentage points it’s not the same as if it is 50%, but in any case it’s annoying as you know there is always a risk of your card being declined).

If you compare to France: there also is a local payment system called CB (carte bleue) and by default all cards issued by a French bank and used at a French POS terminal or online retailers will rely on that that system. But all French terminals and online stores also accept Visa and MasterCard (not always Amex) and CB cards usually also double as a Visa or MasterCard so that they can but used abroad (most of them are coded as credit cards but are actually debit cards with a bit of extra functionality from the bank so that they can be used at places which put large amounts of money on hold in a transparent way).

Actually a bank like N26 would be at a strong disadvantage when trying to recruit French (or Irish) customers of retailed didn’t accept Visa/MasterCard... and not accepting Visa/MasterCard as universally as the local system could be seen as anticompetitive behaviour by the banking industry of an EU member state.

Yggr of Asgard · 26-12-2017 09:37PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

This is closer to normal than strange on mainland Europe. Generally most people will pay cash or use some kind of nationally accepted debit card or one co-branded with Maestro. In Switzerland it is the PostFinance Card (PF) and in Germany I believe it is the GiroCard or something like that.

In general credit cards are not that widely used of the tourist track. Here in Switzerland I can tell you most of my local shops etc are cash or the PF card only. People tend to finance their PayPal account with a cash transfer and the credit in the credit card is the time between when you buy the item and when you pay of the card in full each month.

Yes, my German Creditcard (shows credit on it as per EU rules and is coded as such) is due for full payment 2 days after the invoice is automatic taken from my current account. It's a charge card really but named credit card.

It's not only Germany, the swiss example is a good one or the maestro card preference in the Netherlands or Belgium.

Bob24 wrote: »

Having a local preferred payment system is one thing and is fine. But not accepting international payment systems as a fallback option is another thing which I don’t think is friendly to international visitors (I guess the question is what is the percentage of shops who don’t support them, if it’s only a few percentage points it’s not the same as if it is 50%, but in any case it’s annoying as you know there is always a risk of your card being declined). .

There are stickers which tells you what cards are accepted. If you see "EC" or "Girocard" than forget it, your mastercard/visa won't work. Your Maestro/Vpay might, if there is a sticker as these days most Girocard terminal also take Maestro/Vpay due to cobranding.

There are about 500.000 mastercard / 490.0000 visa acceptance points in Germany while there are above 800.000 girocard acceptance point, so there is a large amount of shops which only take girocard (or maestro/vpay).

This comes down to cost (mastercard/visa being more expensive), local payment profiles (direct debit initiated from the girocard being the preferred option by some shops) and also local preference not to engage in obtaining credit.

It's not anticompetitive as such, some shops have just made the decision not to accept the high cost of credit card (mastercard/visa) transactions and rather use the girocard to generate a direct debit for example which costs them nearly nothing. You still can pay cash if you want (which is the legal tender).

In addition the EU has rules that retailers have the right to refuse card types. Previously if they took Mastercard they had to take all of them, now the retailer can choose for example only to take consumer cards but not commercial cards.

This is why some of the challenger banks like Fidor for example have some crazy card combinations like a Mastercard/Maestro card combination so that you can pay nearly everywhere. When you swipe the card the terminal will ask you how you want to pay "Credit Card" / "Maestro" / "Direct Debit".

Arbie · 26-12-2017 10:50PM

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Nothing strange about it, every country has some local preferred payment systems. In the Netherlands you can in most shops pay with your maestro card (giving that it's very cheap for the merchant) but you can't use you Mastercard (even it it's debit or prepaid), it requires the maestro logo.

My experience in the Netherlands is very different. When I lived there in the mid-2000s I used my Bank of Ireland credit card for 90% of my transactions. I used my Rabobank card/Chipknip for the rest and occasionally cash. The only time I remember having trouble using cards was in places which took no cards at all (not even Maestro), and even then those few instances were in small towns.

Bob24 · 26-12-2017 11:23PM

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

It's not anticompetitive as such, some shops have just made the decision not to accept the high cost of credit card (mastercard/visa) transactions and rather use the girocard to generate a direct debit for example which costs them nearly nothing. You still can pay cash if you want (which is the legal tender).

What could be considered anticompetitive is the fact that German banks have a fee structure which gives an insentive for local businesses to only accept German cards.

Seen from the eyes of let’s say AIB (or BOI) this can seem imbalanced: AIB provides Irish businesses with POS terminals which all accept Visa/MasterCard, meaning that a German banks (like N26) can start poaching Irish personal banking customers and issue them Visa/MasterCard which the Irish banking industry will accept everywhere. But on the other hand, if N26 was Irish and trying to poach German customers exactly in the same way it would have a hard time because the German banking industry is not issuing POS terminals in a way which provides universal Visa/MasterCard acceptance. And the exact same argument applies for French banks which even though they have their own national system clearly don’t incentivise business to *only* support that one as Visa/MasterCard is also supported everywhere.

I understand transaction costs with the local payment system can be lower and I am not especially found of giving Visa/MasterCard a cut of every transaction. But in other occurrences EU rules do impose universal services even if it means forcing the service provider to support a higher service cost for “universal” customers (for exemple mandatory and free international SEPA credit transfers, or in another industry forcing mobile networks to provide free roaming charges even though roaming usage by their customers costs them more than local usage).

Yggr of Asgard · 27-12-2017 12:44AM

Bob24 wrote: »

What could be considered anticompetitive is the fact that German banks have a fee structure which gives an insentive for local businesses to only accept German cards.

In the end it comes down to the business and what cards and methods they want to accept and what they are willing to pay.

Any Irish Bank could issue a compatible card if they want to enter the German Market. Barclaycard Germany is issuing maestro cards in conjunction to their visa credit card because of the German specifics.

N26 has made the decision to go with a Mastercard (Debit) and is issuing Maestro Cards (Debit) in addition for German and Austrian Residents so that they can pay where Mastercard does not work.

Wirecard has new card that combines Visa and vpay, Fidor has a Mastercard/Maestro and there are other examples out where the physical card has several different payment ways on the Chip.

Plus Girocard is only good for Germany, outside it relies on the other app on the chip (maestro/vpay) and most banks charge for using the card outside Germany. In that case people use a Visa/Mastercard they have from their bank for travelling outside Germany.

Why force something on customer that they don't wont. Most customer still miss their "EC" card and don't wont this foreign mastercard/visa logo on their card.

Fred Swanson · 27-12-2017 12:49AM

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fritzelly · 27-12-2017 12:51AM

Who'd have thought that a EU "unified" banking system across Europe would be so against the German way of banking/paying...

I'm actually surprised someone hasn't come up with a system of cross border payments thru a card (like Laser) that all countries have to adopt and incurs an absolute minimum cost fee that does not translate to an extra 50c charge every time you want to use said card in any country
Why do we still need to rely on the likes of what was primarily just a credit system that is still making money on the backs of payment system that takes money directly out of your account ergo no credit given

Yggr of Asgard · 27-12-2017 12:53AM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's complicated.

Most people refer to their girocard as "EC" but legally it's no longer an EC card. EC started for Eurocheque than became electronic cash, all which no longer is there and the german banks sold that trademark.

Mastercard now owns the EC trademark is currently trying to use it to roll out Mastercard Debit cards in Germany by telling people it's the new EC card.

So they are heavily promoting Mastercard Debit cards as the new EC card just to find that people can't use it to pay where they want because it's not a girocard.

Girocard is what you need to get your cigarettes.

Yggr of Asgard · 27-12-2017 01:02AM

fritzelly wrote: »

Who'd have thought that a EU "unified" banking system across Europe would be so against the German way of banking/paying...

I'm actually surprised someone hasn't come up with a system of cross border payments thru a card (like Laser) that all countries have to adopt and incurs an absolute minimum cost fee that does not translate to an extra 50c charge every time you want to use said card in any country
Why do we still need to rely on the likes of what was primarily just a credit system that is still making money on the backs of payment system that takes money directly out of your account ergo no credit given

Which is why for example vpay (visa) exists. It's Visa's European solution to comply with the PSD. It's directly taken from your account when you pay anywhere in Europe.

Some banks also add a visa electron app onto the chip of the card so that you can use it outside Europe but it's primary the answer to low cost transactions in Europe. Loads of banks in continental Europe are issuing vpay cards linked to the current accounts. In Germany they co-brand it onto the Girocard, in Italy on the PagoBancomat etc.

Maestro from Mastercard tried something similar but that is more popular in the Netherlands and Belgium.

fritzelly · 27-12-2017 01:05AM

But are they still not getting a cut of the action? It's still Visa/Mastercard

Bank transfers are free so why not a European card that is free?

Yggr of Asgard · 27-12-2017 01:08AM

fritzelly wrote: »

But are they still not getting a cut of the action? It's still Visa/Mastercard

Bank transfers are free so why not a European card that is free?

Getting a cut of your transaction every time you use your Mastercard is why N26 can offer you free banking. It's part of how they make money and it used to finance your free bank transfers.

We have already seen what happened after the EU restricted the amount banks can get as kickbacks (interchange fee) and it lead to the demise of reward cards and higher banking charges in some cases. If you eliminate that totally in the long run banks need to charge higher overall fees.

fritzelly · 27-12-2017 01:16AM

Point is why should the consumer pay (those 50c charges if you don't spend 10 euro or more etc) and the retailer pays the merchant as well - are clearing houses not just money makers for doing nothing more than moving money from one account to another and done automatically so no actual human intervention
How much does paying by card actually cost anyone? 1c, 2c...

Laser for example was a tiny fee charge, the move to Visa increased those charges

Bob24 · 27-12-2017 06:47AM

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Why force something on customer that they don't wont.

In the same way you could say why force customers to take mobile subscriptions which include EU voice , SMS and data roaming. Not including it would reduce cost for the mobile network which could pass it to the subscriber, and some customers would prefer it that way.

Yet the EU forces everyone (networks and customers alike) to do it that way with the goal of making EU wide mobile service a standard.

And mind you, I am not taking about forcing Germans to use Visa/MasterCard, but forcing German banks to provide POS termainals which accept all type of card with no financial incentive for vendors accepting local ones only.

Bob24 · 27-12-2017 06:47AM

***

Yggr of Asgard · 27-12-2017 10:36AM

fritzelly wrote: »

Point is why should the consumer pay (those 50c charges if you don't spend 10 euro or more etc) and the retailer pays the merchant as well - are clearing houses not just money makers for doing nothing more than moving money from one account to another and done automatically so no actual human intervention
How much does paying by card actually cost anyone? 1c, 2c...

Laser for example was a tiny fee charge, the move to Visa increased those charges

Which is why there is girocard or vpay to address that. Irish banks just have decided to not use vpay but rather visa debit because it gives them more money. All the merchant does is charge you the fee he has to pay (or in some cases like Airlines way more) so that people who use cheaper payment methods don't have to pay for you using the more expensive method. It that fair giving that cash is most likely more expensive to handle, possible, but it's the reality that loads of retailers in some countries still prefer to have cash.

Bob24 wrote: »

And mind you, I am not taking about forcing Germans to use Visa/MasterCard, but forcing German banks to provide POS termainals which accept all type of card with no financial incentive for vendors accepting local ones only.

Well the EU has decided to go a different way for cards than mobile phones and allow discrimination, it's part of the PSD which is why thing like vpay sprung up. Most of the terminals in use could in theory do Visa/Mastercard but the retailer does choose not to accept those cards. Because they either don't like the cost or they don't want the liability of cards or they customer base is just happy with local payment methods.

N26 for a while (while being a wirecard reseller) did offer credit cards (with 0 limit) to give them a nice kickback every time you swiped the card which is why we had that 30€ stamp duty debacle.

With the new kickback limits and them starting issuing the card themselves and decided to go down the debit card route but also to issue maestro to allow German/Austrian people better acceptance.

Now that some of the larger German banks are moving from vpay/maestro to Mastercard Debit I'm sure acceptance is going to growth. Deutsche Bank started issuing and some Sparkasse shops have also started.

jester77 · 27-12-2017 01:22PM

I have the girocard and I have not had to use it once. Anywhere that didn't take the MasterCard, also didn't take the girocard.

I just avoid those places now, as do most of the the guys I work with when we go to lunch. Just too much hassle always having to find a bloody ATM, and then one that won't charge you fees.

Things have improved dramatically in Germany in the last 12 months, most places take the MasterCard and the majority of them are now contactless. It is nowhere near as bad as it was 2 or 3 years ago.

Abominable JoMan · 29-12-2017 06:18PM

Quick question. How can N26 get away with selling the Black card as MasterCard World Elite, have "World Elite" branded on the back of it, but in fact have no World Elite benefits and it can't even be registered on the MasterCard website as a World Elite Member.

Fred Swanson · 29-12-2017 07:17PM

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Yggr of Asgard · 29-12-2017 08:52PM

Abominable JoMan wrote: »

Quick question. How can N26 get away with selling the Black card as MasterCard World Elite, have "World Elite" branded on the back of it, but in fact have no World Elite benefits and it can't even be registered on the MasterCard website as a World Elite Member.

Because you are most likely looking at the benefits of the World Elite CREDIT card not the benefits of the World Elite DEBIT card.

Mastercard is offering different benefits for CREDIT and DEBIT card on all of their card variants.

World Elite DEBIT cards are in most cases nothing but an attempt to make you feel good as card owner by having a "status card" and outside the EU to make more money from the interchange fee (which is higher for that card variant).

World Elite CREDIT cards are those which usually carry all of the additional service benefits for travel / priority pass / concierge with them.

World Elite DEBIT card are usually issued in the former east block, the Caribbean and the middle east as a status symbol because a normal Mastercard is just for the masses. Plus some banks throw in some additional benefits.

Abominable JoMan · 30-12-2017 11:43AM

That clears that up! Thanks Yggr!

Bob24 · 04-01-2018 07:39PM

Has anyone else noticed significantly slower SEPA transfers lately.

My transfers from N26 used to hit the target account within 2-3 hours. But one I initiated this morning around 10AM still isn’t there, and this is not the first time I’m seeing this since around Christmas time.

gawker · 05-01-2018 12:38PM

Everything to do with banking slows down around Christmas and New Years, especially with different countries having different national holidays etc. - I'd imagine normal service will resume next week.

Number26/N26 Mastercard/Account now for Irish Residents

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