BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

devnull · 21-12-2017 9:02pm

Can we keep this topic related strictly to BusConnects please.

Off topic posts may be removed.

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XPS_Zero · 21-12-2017 9:35pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ultimately that's what it comes down to IMO - and it applies to my livery point above as well

This is a wholly State owned entity, NOT a private/commercial company regardless of what DB might like to think.

There should be no reason (other than apathy/laziness/incompetence - delete as applicable) that the powers in Government can't simply issue instructions that from here on out, this is the way it is.

Why should the public (who are funding the entire operation) come secondary to the notions and spiel of CIE staff/management?

It's nonsense.. and it's why everything takes far longer than it should, is usually significantly different and watered down from the original objective, and costs far more than it should have.

You hit on something on the head I'd been asking for a long time. The livery and BusConnects teething problems are but a symptom of a wider issue that always affects reform of anything technical in Irish policy but public transport a lot more, and it's going to affect BusConnects and this change of bus market model a lot for the same reasons. If you'll allow me some lee-way I'm going somewhere with this:

I've been involved in politics since I was a kid (which was the 2000s just so you don't think I'm a wise aul fella lol) and it used to always bother me there were obvious reforms in various govt agencies and depts that ministers knew about but were afraid to do. I would ask why and the answer every time would be "ps unions" the toys will go flying out of the pram and tantrums will ensue, so it's a matter of picking battles.

It's always frustrated me hearing from more experienced people about what a mess CIE is (which at first to my shame I thought was an exaggeration) and I would think "they have the clear power to fix it and won't - WHY". I began to even question if they did have the power. I even went so far as to look up the Ministers and Secretaries Acts (the laws that define various ministers powers) and other laws specific to various depts, to figure out if I was missing something.

But no, sure enough, they do indeed have the power to do almost whatever they want in their departments which is very relevant to Transport where it's technical rather than more ambiguous harder to solve issues like homelessness or poverty. In fact some (like Justice) have emergency powers I didn't even realize they had. You'll usually get an act listing a long list of powers the minister has over their dept (and anything or anyone under that dept) A,B,C,D,E,F,G etc then you'll have like (H) which will be right at the end and say something like "and any other directive the minister thinks necessary and proper" so what it comes down to is they can do whatever they want subject to only three limitations:
1. The Taoiseach overrides them
2. What they wanna do is specifically banned by some other law (eg the Minister for Justice can order an investigation, and sometimes even arrest, but can't order a prosecution)
3. They need to spend money to do what they wanna do so need the finance ministers approval.

So why, I asked someone I know who is often greatly amused at my frustration in times such as these, who worked with several ministers including a transport minister for a short while, why they don't (in situations like this ^) just issue a ministerial order and tell them "STFU me boss you subordinate do as you are told". It's not unions this time because were talking management. The answer, even for someone as hardened to this stuff by now as myself, kinda depressed me: "you have this idea that a minister should be this big passionate reformer constantly trying to improve things, I often think if and when you get to that level you'll be the only one still in your office working after dark while the rest are getting p1ssed down in the bar laughing at you thinking how adorable it is that you care that much...but most of them just...don't...they don't care THAT much, you'll get the odd Donogh O'Malley coming up with radical ideas but most of them just wanna go to a few ribbon cuttings collect their money and go home and the rest only care about the ministry to the extent it helps them in their constituency, and have no big ideas nationally, Ross is a huge example of that, I wish I had a more glamorous answer for you ..most just don't care enough to get THAT involved and they'd laugh their asses off at you're adorable passion there"

bk · 22-12-2017 2:27am

XPS_Zero, that is exactly it. I've personally witnessed the powers of ministers when they are passionate about something, I've seen a minister of comms radically reshape the entire Irish telecoms industry in a matter of weeks with just one ministerial order, much to the chagrin of Eircom.

But as you say, most just don't care enough and they don't want to rock the boat and put their own poltical career at risk.

bk · 22-12-2017 2:30am

BTW as a fun aside, Jarrett Walker, the consultant employed to redesign the Dublin Bus Network under Bus Connects has gotten into a bit of a twitter argument with Elon Musk and was called an "idiot" by Elon!

http://humantransit.org/2017/06/dublin-imagine-a-better-bus-network-design.html

Great fun, I think Elon and Jarrett are both very smart guys, so fun to watch them bump heads.

devnull · 22-12-2017 10:20am

Several Photos now on http://dublinbuses.com/ - click link to see them all.

No grey thankfully - still odd there is no logo on the front.

Bray Head · 22-12-2017 11:06am

From terminus to terminus of the 75 is 18 kilometres. This is something I could walk in three hours, although probably not twice a day.

I know December is the slowest time of year......................but for any mode of motorised transport to manage a mere 33% faster than walking pace is appalling.

Devilman40k · 22-12-2017 11:10am

Bray Head wrote: »

From terminus to terminus of the 75 is 18 kilometres. This is something I could walk in three hours, although probably not twice a day.

I know December is the slowest time of year......................but for any mode of motorised transport to manage a mere 33% faster than walking pace is appalling.

Thats shocking, for comparison.. I get Bus Eireann 115 from Mullingar to CC and Luas out to work.. and its takes 1hr 50 minutes, as does the evening return (80km in both directions)

punisher5112 · 22-12-2017 11:38am

Bray Head wrote: »

From terminus to terminus of the 75 is 18 kilometres. This is something I could walk in three hours, although probably not twice a day.

I know December is the slowest time of year......................but for any mode of motorised transport to manage a mere 33% faster than walking pace is appalling.

It doesn't go in a straight line and has to deal with huge traffic congestion and stopping ever 100 metres or so....

devnull · 22-12-2017 11:42am

punisher5112 wrote: »

It doesn't go in a straight line and has to deal with huge traffic congestion and stopping ever 100 metres or so....

Plus people also need to bear in mind that the idea of such routes is not simply to carry traffic from one terminus to another, there will be far more people making local journeys.

Bray Head · 22-12-2017 12:08pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

It doesn't go in a straight line and has to deal with huge traffic congestion and stopping ever 100 metres or so....

Likewise my legs face the biological constraint of not being able to propel me faster than 6km/h in an urban environment.

Stephen15 · 22-12-2017 12:47pm

Devilman40k wrote: »

Thats shocking, for comparison.. I get Bus Eireann 115 from Mullingar to CC and Luas out to work.. and its takes 1hr 50 minutes, as does the evening return (80km in both directions)

The 75 is not intended for going terminus to terminus its similar to a cross city in so far as it's serves points along the way such as Dun Laoghaire, Stillorgan, Dundrum, Ballinteer, Nutgrove, Rathfarnham, Knocklyon, Firhouse and Tallaght. It should not be judged on its terminus to terminus performance but rather how well and effectively it serves the areas between the two termini.

Comparing the 75 with a BE bus to Mullingar is not comparing like with like. BE'S 115 service connects a city with a number of towns while the 75 interconnects a number of South Dublin suburbs. It's like comparing an Inter City express train with a stopping commuter train each have their own purpose. We have to remember the 75 dosen't serve A to B it's serves A to Z via B,C,D and E.

Dyr · 22-12-2017 12:48pm

devnull wrote: »

Several Photos now on http://dublinbuses.com/ - click link to see them all.

[/img]

No grey thankfully - still odd there is no logo on the front.

That's actually pretty nice, not crazy on the turquoise but otherwise its good

Devilman40k · 22-12-2017 12:51pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

The 75 is not intended for going terminus to terminus its similar to a cross city in so far as it's serves points along the way such as Dun Laoghaire, Stillorgan, Dundrum, Ballinteer, Nutgrove, Rathfarnham, Knocklyon, Firhouse and Tallaght. It should not be judged on its terminus to terminus performance but rather how well and effectively it serves the areas between the two termini.

Comparing the 75 with a BE bus to Mullingar is not comparing like with like. BE'S 115 service connects a city with a number of towns while the 75 interconnects a number of South Dublin suburbs. It's like comparing an Inter City express train with a stopping commuter train each have their own purpose. We have to remember the 75 dosen't serve A to B it's serves A to Z via B,C,D and E.

I know its not like for like - but the way Dublin has developed and the demand on the M50 every morning/evening - there is a need for some kind of higher speed / frequency orbital option(s).

bk · 22-12-2017 12:57pm

devnull wrote: »

Several Photos now on http://dublinbuses.com/ - click link to see them all.

Not the clearest pictures, but the Double Decker actually doesn't look too bad at all. Certainly much better then the previously shown colour schemes.

I'll hold off until seeing better quality pictures or even better in person, but from the above, might work out quiet well.

Blue for Dublin City Buses might even come semi iconic, like London Red.

However I hope they don't plan on using the same colour scheme in the rest of the country, folks in Cork wouldn't be too happy with blue

I quiet like the new green and white livery for Swords Express, Green like that might work well for the rest of the country.

Stephen15 · 22-12-2017 12:58pm

Devilman40k wrote: »

I know its not like for like - but the way Dublin has developed and the demand on the M50 every morning/evening - there is a need for some kind of higher speed / frequency orbital option(s).

That may be so but the 75 is would still be nessecary to connect the areas by bypassed by a quicker service. Anyway thats something Bus Connects aims to achieve.

Stephen15 · 22-12-2017 1:09pm

bk wrote: »

Not the clearest pictures, but the Double Decker actually doesn't look too bad at all. Certainly much better then the previously shown colour schemes.

I'll hold off until seeing better quality pictures or even better in person, but from the above, might work out quiet well.

Blue for Dublin City Buses might even come semi iconic, like London Red.

However I hope they don't plan on using the same colour scheme in the rest of the country, folks in Cork wouldn't be too happy with blue

I quiet like the new green and white livery for Swords Express, Green like that might work well for the rest of the country.

Blue could be used for local city and town services in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Sligo and Athlone. Another colour such as as Green could be used for longer distance services that are currently operated by BE.

An example of such a colour scheme would be traditionally in Italy urban buses are orange and longer distance buses are blue altough that is changing as many cities are adapting their own liveries.

As for the livery itself I quite like it better than the current DB livery and much than the vomit like liveries that were spewed up for the survey. Altough I think the stripes on it could be a bit smaller and more subtle. Also the colour looked much better in the other image that devnull posted.

Peregrine · 22-12-2017 1:12pm

devnull wrote: »

Better photo of the double decker now in - click the link for bigger - Has full TFI branding.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/67013704@N04/39156683912/sizes/o/

devnull wrote: »

Several Photos now on http://dublinbuses.com/ - click link to see them all.

No grey thankfully - still odd there is no logo on the front.

The pictures on Dublinbuses aren't great although you see more of the bus. I think the first image is a much better representation of the true colour. Judging from that, I think it looks quite good. I was never a fan of the blue and yellow.

Tickityboo · 22-12-2017 2:00pm

Bray Head wrote: »

From terminus to terminus of the 75 is 18 kilometres. This is something I could walk in three hours, although probably not twice a day.

I know December is the slowest time of year......................but for any mode of motorised transport to manage a mere 33% faster than walking pace is appalling.

The actual route is roughly 27 Kms direct and 30kms via Sandyford Ind. Estate.

Evil-1 · 22-12-2017 8:48pm

bk wrote: »

However I hope they don't plan on using the same colour scheme in the rest of the country, folks in Cork wouldn't be too happy with blue

.

We will happily take the blue over the current mud stained dealer white with red stickers.lol

dublinman1990 · 22-12-2017 11:11pm

dublinbuses.com keeps timing out on my web browsers. I can't get into it to see these pictures.

Stephen15 · 23-12-2017 12:06am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

dublinbuses.com keeps timing out on my web browsers. I can't get into it to see these pictures.

It is Christmas so Ile do I kind gesture for ya. Hopefully you view these images for yourself. Credit: dublinbuses.com

Stephen15 · 23-12-2017 12:08am

If they're getting longer streetlites I think they should have middle doors.

john boye · 23-12-2017 1:00am

Interesting that this testbed livery hasn't been applied to a bus with ad frames, I assume buses in this scheme will have them? If they do then that offside TFI logo will need to be much smaller or shifted somewhere else.

Bray Head · 23-12-2017 8:26am

Tickityboo wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

From terminus to terminus of the 75 is 18 kilometres. This is something I could walk in three hours, although probably not twice a day.

I know December is the slowest time of year......................but for any mode of motorised transport to manage a mere 33% faster than walking pace is appalling.

The actual route is roughly 27 Kms direct and 30kms via Sandyford Ind. Estate.

Yes but the OP was taking the route from end to end.
Even by your metric the 75 manages just over twice walking pace which is still lousy for a vehicle with a motor.

Stephen15 · 23-12-2017 4:30pm

Just speaking of the 75 I was driving yesterday and I saw two 75's towards The Square on a RTPI display at Bakers Corner one was in 11 mins and the other in 16 mins. The 75 is only timetabled to arrive every half hour so 5 minute gap is riddiculous considering its not too far from the terminus so its not like the two got bunched towards the end of the route and traffic wasn't that awful. 2 75's within 5 mins would mean it could be an hour till the next one.

punisher5112 · 23-12-2017 5:29pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Just speaking of the 75 I was driving yesterday and I saw two 75's towards The Square on a RTPI display at Bakers Corner one was in 11 mins and the other in 16 mins. The 75 is only timetabled to arrive every half hour so 5 minute gap is riddiculous considering its not too far from the terminus so its not like the two got bunched towards the end of the route and traffic wasn't that awful. 2 75's within 5 mins would mean it could be an hour till the next one.

Quite possible held up from the square.

Its an extremely busy route and with all the shopping centres it passes I would hazard a guess that didn't help.

Stephen15 · 23-12-2017 6:17pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Quite possible held up from the square.

Its an extremely busy route and with all the shopping centres it passes I would hazard a guess that didn't help.

If thats the case there needs to be extra capacity. An extra bus could have been sent from Donnybrook.

punisher5112 · 23-12-2017 6:54pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

If thats the case there needs to be extra capacity. An extra bus could have been sent from Donnybrook.

That could be done but they wouldn't have enough staff to do so...

Saturday and Sunday are already very difficult to staff Saturday the worst of course.

tabbey · 24-12-2017 9:35pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Its an extremely busy route and with all the shopping centres it passes I would hazard a guess that didn't help.

This is why the 75 route is unfit for purpose.

It needs to be split into two routes;

1. an express route from Dun Laoghaire to Sandyford then via M50 to N81 and direct along the bypass to the Square.

2. a revised version of the present route, skipping the village area in Tallaght.

The present setup is so unreliable that the potential market has long abandoned the bus.
If a reasonable service was provided, it would be used.

Stephen15 · 24-12-2017 10:34pm

tabbey wrote: »

This is why the 75 route is unfit for purpose.

It needs to be split into two routes;

1. an express route from Dun Laoghaire to Sandyford then via M50 to N81 and direct along the bypass to the Square.

2. a revised version of the present route, skipping the village area in Tallaght.

The present setup is so unreliable that the potential market has long abandoned the bus.
If a reasonable service was provided, it would be used.

Would it be safe for city bus without seatbelts to travel on the m50.

Also the potential market has not abandoned the bus. The 75 is ok if travelling shorter distances but not for long distance.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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