Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

tayto lover · 19-12-2017 03:07PM

Lollipop95 wrote: »

See, I accept that he may have had a mental illness and I don't mean to be graphic but if he was that gripped by it, he surely would have given himself the same death he gave his poor family. The fact he chose an arguably less horrendous way to die himself suggests to me he can't have been in a hugely psychotic state

His meticulous planning is what causes confusion.
He wanted to spare certain people the horror of seeing his handiwork yet he butchered his poor wife and kids. The notes he left also give rise to wanting to look look "caring".
They can label him psychotic, mad or whatever they like but murdering bast*** with huge ego is still what I think.

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 03:07PM

demfad wrote: »

https://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2017/12/19/news/alan-hawe-was-troubled-depressed-and-severely-mentally-ill-in-the-months-before-murder-suicide--1214775/

Professor Kennedy's testimony is at odds with the testimony of Hawe's psychotherapist and doctor.

From his doctor: "Mr Hawe did not have any overt psychological or mental problems leading up to the events on August 29"

That statement is also contradicted by the fact he had been attending counselling in the preceeding period. Furthermore the comments of the Professor Kennedy addressing the difference in accounts is highly relevant: 'Hindsight is always a very unfair advantage'

Stuckforcash · 19-12-2017 03:08PM

Lollipop95 wrote: »

See, I accept that he may have had a mental illness and I don't mean to be graphic but if he was that gripped by it, he surely would have given himself the same death he gave his poor family. The fact he chose an arguably less horrendous way to die himself suggests to me he can't have been in a hugely psychotic state

That post is idiotic at best. You'd have him inflict knife or axe wounds to himself?

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:08PM

Lollipop95 wrote:

See, I accept that he may have had a mental illness and I don't mean to be graphic but if he was that gripped by it, he surely would have given himself the same death he gave his poor family. The fact he chose an arguably less horrendous way to die himself suggests to me he can't have been in a hugely psychotic state

Why would the type of death give you that understanding? What are you basing that opinion on?

19-12-2017 03:09PM

I don't see that a medical opinion that hawe wasn't in his right mind when he did this provides any fresh information.

It's as vanilla and obvious an assessment as there can be in the circumstances.

Anyone claiming it strengthens the view they hold of this affair or weakens any other perspective is kidding themselves.

bobsman · 19-12-2017 03:12PM

Professor Kennedy never treated Hawe. He is basing his decisions on the content of the suicide notes, which the coroner has decided will not be made public.

It seems very at odds with the psychotherapist's and GP's opinion.

Stuckforcash · 19-12-2017 03:13PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't see that a medical opinion that hawe wasn't in his right mind when he did this provides any fresh information.

It's as vanilla and obvious an assessment as there can be in the circumstances.

Anyone claiming it strengthens the view they hold of this affair or weakens any other perspective is kidding themselves.

Out of interest, what's to be gained from writing this off as the acts of a despicable man? Surely we must explore the possibility of mental health issues in relation to this in the hope of preventing this from happening again?

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:13PM

Deleted User wrote:

I don't see that a medical opinion that hawe wasn't in his right mind when he did this provides any fresh information.It's as vanilla and obvious an assessment as there can be in the circumstances.

It provides fresh information people who claim mental illness has nothing to do with it.

What's the difference between 'not in his right mind' and a psychotic break?

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 03:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see that a medical opinion that hawe wasn't in his right mind when he did this provides any fresh information.

It's as vanilla and obvious an assessment as there can be in the circumstances.

Anyone claiming it strengthens the view they hold of this affair or weakens any other perspective is kidding themselves.

Is anyone doing that? This thread is a toxic mess because some people pointed out ages ago that mental health issues may have played a role in this atrocity, and others reacted by dismissing that out of hand and trying to portray those who raised this issue as somehow trying to excuse the behaviour of Alan Hawe. That is the sum of the matter.

demfad · 19-12-2017 03:14PM

demfad wrote: »

https://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2017/12/19/news/alan-hawe-was-troubled-depressed-and-severely-mentally-ill-in-the-months-before-murder-suicide--1214775/

Professor Kennedy's testimony is at odds with the testimony of Hawe's psychotherapist and doctor.

From his doctor: "Mr Hawe did not have any overt psychological or mental problems leading up to the events on August 29"

It seems Clodagh's family who also knew him agree with the doctors diagnosis. They also point out that no motive has been attributed for the methodical killing by the inquest.

"They were executed in a manner which rendered them unable to cry out for help" added Liam Keane, speaking on behalf of Clodagh's mother
The family of Clodagh Hawe issued a statement through their solicitor after the inquest

"The inquest does not address why Alan Hawe committed this savagery but his counsellor said that he was concerned about his position as 'a pillar of the community' and we are aware that he was concerned at his imminent fall from that position and the breakdown of his marriage.
"While a psychiatrist has attempted a retrospective diagnosis based on notes and records, his GP who knew him for five years said he never displayed any signs of depression."

Again his GP who personally knew him for 5 years alleged NO DEPRESSION.

Edit: LINK

jobbridge4life wrote: »

That statement is also contradicted by the fact he had been attending counselling in the preceeding period. Furthermore the comments of the Professor Kennedy addressing the difference in accounts is highly relevant: 'Hindsight is always a very unfair advantage'

It actually doesn't as the counselor did not give a diagnosis of depression AFAIK. The counselor only revealed that he was troubled by an incident with a work colleague. Attending a counsellor does not indicate depression (and depression is no mitigation for mass murder: approx 15% of Irish population suffer?).

Zubeneschamali · 19-12-2017 03:15PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What's the difference between 'not in his right mind' and a psychotic break?

One of them is vague, and tars all people with mental health issues with the same brush.

The other does not match the facts we know.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:16PM

bobsman wrote:

Professor Kennedy never treated Hawe. He is basing his decisions on the content of the suicide notes, which the coroner has decided will not be made public.

No he's basing his opinion on the collection of the evidence.

bobsman wrote:

It seems very at odds with the psychotherapist's and GP's opinion.

The GP and psychotherapist are basing their testimony on the evidence that Hawe presented to them. If he didn't show any outward signs of danger to them, then its right and proper for them to report that at the inquest. The fact that the expert whose reviewing the whole body of evidence is at odds with individual pieces of evidencen isn't that confusing.

kunst nugget · 19-12-2017 03:16PM

demfad wrote: »

It seems Clodagh's family who also knew him agree with the doctors diagnosis. They also point out that no motive has been attributed for the methodical killing by the inquest.

Again his GP who personally knew him for 5 years alleged NO DEPRESSION.

Edit: LINK

Why was he attending a psychotherapist? For the craic?

Stuckforcash · 19-12-2017 03:19PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

One of them is vague, and tars all people with mental health issues with the same brush.

I suffer from panic disorder and don't feel tarred with any brush. Again it just sounds like you don't know anything about about the nuances of mental health, it's not just one big all encompassing illness. There's hundreds of conditions. Your attitude is fairly condescending in fact.

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 03:23PM

demfad wrote: »

It seems Clodagh's family who also knew him agree with the doctors diagnosis. They also point out that no motive has been attributed for the methodical killing by the inquest.

Again his GP who personally knew him for 5 years alleged NO DEPRESSION.

Edit: LINK

The GP stated herself that Hawe had only presented for physical ailments. So of course her knowledge of his mental state would have been limited.

The Director of the Central Mental Hospital, a forensic psychatriast having examined the evidence, including evidence that the GP did not have access too has concluded “He progressed from a long-standing depressive illness with anxiety and somatic concerns to a severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms,”.

The jury added a rider to their judgement that steps be taken to “raise awareness of mental health issues at work”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-had-depressive-symptoms-for-almost-a-decade-inquest-told-1.3332363

kunst nugget · 19-12-2017 03:24PM

demfad wrote: »

It seems Clodagh's family who also knew him agree with the doctors diagnosis.

My wife's cousin ended up being hospitalised for severe depression - the mother of the cousin told her husband he wasn't allowed to tell his family about it even though she was telling everyone on her side - to his family, everything was hunky dory even though he was going through hell because he never told him. It all came out months after when she deigned that he was allowed to say something. It can be easy enough for information to be withheld from family if you choose.

The aunt's a bit of a bint tbh.

BarryD2 · 19-12-2017 03:24PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see that a medical opinion that hawe wasn't in his right mind when he did this provides any fresh information.

It's as vanilla and obvious an assessment as there can be in the circumstances.

Anyone claiming it strengthens the view they hold of this affair or weakens any other perspective is kidding themselves.

That's what struck me too, smacks of the professionals always having the answers after the event. Doctors, economists etc. etc.

BinLiner2 · 19-12-2017 03:24PM

Nekarsulm wrote: »

It's incredible how Hawe still has apologists.
Even yesterday's news on Newstalk was describing his family as having been "killed" by Hawe.
You get killed in an accident, or if a tree falls on you or you fall off a cliff
If someone takes a carving knife and a hatchet to you, you've been murdered.

Had a younger sibling a victim of murder-suicide

I remember the framing of the incident as a tragedy rather than flat out murder was a major cause of anger in the family at the time

19-12-2017 03:28PM

Plenty of kickback presuming that I'm attributing the events to 'evil' just because I don't think a mental health expert reviewing scant enough info shines much light here.

In a way, the desire to have a signed cert here that covers causation is coming from exactly the same motivation as the fuzzy 'evil' attribution.

Neither is an answer tbh. Fella did what he did, we'll likely never know why. It was an evil act from a mentally ill man.

I was more interested to see if her family's hints at a dark secret had a more prosaic motive for his actions but no hint of that as yet

kunst nugget · 19-12-2017 03:28PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

That's what struck me too, smacks of the professionals always having the answers after the event. Doctors, economists etc. etc.

20/20 is hindsight and all that.. Generally, people are only going to be able to make the full connections in terms of behaviour or events when they are looking back on them. Very hard to do that on the fly when you're only really seeing it from a certain viewpoint.

fg1406 · 19-12-2017 03:32PM

The narrative that’s played out in Alan Hawe being a sick murderer is quite justified. He butchered his entire family in a most horrific manner. However I do wonder why when a woman does it, we feel sorry for her? As if a woman, a mother cannot be evil. I recall the case of a lady in Firhouse about 10 or more years ago who stabbed her 2 boys to death in a similar way, and committed suicide. At the time I was living about a mile away and the papers, the locals, everyone was saying “poor so-and-so”.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:35PM

Zubeneschamali wrote:

One of them is vague, and tars all people with mental health issues with the same brush.

Which is which?

I suppose if you know very little about mental illness then you might think it's just one condition. That would be a very ignorant position to take.

Why would you pussy foot around by using a more have term 'not in his right mind' to say mental illness but with even less detail.

What does not in his right mind' actually mean to you as distinct from mental ill health?

demfad · 19-12-2017 03:37PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

The aunt's a bit of a bint tbh.

To whom are you referring here?

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:37PM

jobbridge4life wrote:

Is anyone doing that? This thread is a toxic mess because some people pointed out ages ago that mental health issues may have played a role in this atrocity, and others reacted by dismissing that out of hand and trying to portray those who raised this issue as somehow trying to excuse the behaviour of Alan Hawe. That is the sum of the matter.

Oh yeah I forgot that was the main accusation earlier in the thread. That saying it was mental illness is excusing what he did. Strange how some people like to simplify things beyond reason.

19-12-2017 03:40PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Which is which?

I suppose if you know very little about mental illness then you might think it's just one condition. That would be a very ignorant position to take.

Why would you pussy foot around by using a more have term 'not in his right mind' to say mental illness but with even less detail.

What does not in his right mind' actually mean to you as distinct from mental ill health?

You're quoting me, not this poster.

And I don't think your combative tone is particularly fitting but hey whatever.

I'm very capable of distinguishing between mild depressive episodes, severe depressive episodes, psychosis, all the other terminology relevant in this instance.

I've also had significant personal experience of those and more in immediate family members.

I don't believe that the diagnosis tells us anything we did not know already, that a man who killed his family and himself was, wait for it, not in his right mind.

Why you would act so continuously pugnaciously in the thread before and after an uninvolved expert states that the elements of a psychotic episode here suggest a psychotic episode is a mystery to me tbh.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:41PM

demfad wrote:

Again his GP who personally knew him for 5 years alleged NO DEPRESSION.

The fact that he knew him personally is a double edged sword. Personally knowing your GP can lead to overlooking symptoms as it is seen as just part of their personality.

I actually know someone who had undiagnosed bipolar disorder. The GP was a close family friend and overlooked symptoms of manic episodes for years. They knew them in a personal capacity they saw the mania as part of their personality.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:46PM

BarryD2 wrote:

That's what struck me too, smacks of the professionals always having the answers after the event. Doctors, economists etc. etc.

Description is easier than prescription. It's hardly surprising that someone who is using all the facts in hindsight, knowing the outcome will come to a different conclusion than someone who is working with the facts available at the time.

I don't see the problem.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:50PM

Deleted User wrote:

I don't believe that the diagnosis tells us anything we did not know already, that a man who killed his family and himself was, wait for it, not in his right mind.

What does that mean as distinct from mental ill health? I don't know what it adds except vagueness.

Lollipop95 · 19-12-2017 03:50PM

Stuckforcash wrote: »

That post is idiotic at best. You'd have him inflict knife or axe wounds to himself?

No, that's not what I meant. Poorly worded, but as another poster said, it does suggest something he meticulously planned. That combined with the hand written note (he obviously had the peace of mind to write one) suggests it may not have been a psychotic episode. I mention this because I saw a comment (it may have been the initial thread here a year ago or the Daily Mail) that he may not have been able to bring himself to stab himself and so chose another way. But I don't want to get into a debate about that that. That's besides the point.

All that matters now is seeing what society can do to take measures to prevent this from ever happening again. Thing is, if it was mental illness, that's something society can work towards (improving the MY services in the country). But if it was simply a case of this guy being pure evil, what do you do in that case? Not everybody who is evil suffers from a mental illness.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 03:56PM

Deleted User wrote:

Plenty of kickback presuming that I'm attributing the events to 'evil' just because I don't think a mental health expert reviewing scant enough info shines much light here.

In a way, the desire to have a signed cert here that covers causation is coming from exactly the same motivation as the fuzzy 'evil' attribution.

That's not true at all. We have no way to investigate evil (I don't think the term has any real use except to describe feelings about the incident). We can investigate mental illness, so while saying it's just evil leaves no path for understanding, acknowledgement that it's mental illness at play means we can actually find out more about it and hopefully prevent future harm

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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