The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

mrkiscool2 · 17-12-2017 11:06AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

For the record I am pro choice. I don’t believe I have the right to dictate what another woman chooses to do with her body.

That being said I think a complete repeal of the 8th is unreasonable. I don’t want to end up in a situation where you can simply walk in off the street, demand an abortion and be given one then and there. There has to be proper legislation and guidelines in place.

Abortion is not just another form of contraception and I admit that I worry that is how many of the more militant pro choicers see it.

I also do not like the idea that many pro lifers are afraid to speak their opinions out loud. You are completely entitled to your beliefs and should not feel you have to hide them.

I think we need a middle ground in this debate, not an all out ban on abortion but not all out repeal either. Both sides need to be heard.

So, you're not in favor of what the Oireachtas recommended for the referendum? Abortion on demand until 12 weeks and then for any health issues with the mother (fatal abnormality, risk to the mothers life and adverse mental health affects, most specifically suicidal tendencies)

Crea · 17-12-2017 11:08AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed. I just think a lot of people want to repeal with no limits and that doesn’t sit well with me.

You do know that if the 8th was repealed tomorrow abortion would still be illegal because of our legislation. The law would need to change to allow for abortion on demand. Do you honestly believe our politicians are prepared to do that?

Mr. CooL ICE · 17-12-2017 11:17AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m not taking that bait sorry.

There is no bait. That has literally happened. Multiple times by the same people and in an orchestrated manner.

Edward M · 17-12-2017 12:19PM

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

There is no bait. That has literally happened. Multiple times by the same people and in an orchestrated manner.

So is the manner some people act in a reason for voting against them?
Look, I'd say the pro side reps are totally over the top, unreasonable even, but like audreyhepburn, I'd have reservations on abortion on demand, no prob for genuine mental or physical illness issues with the mother's health!

Zubeneschamali · 17-12-2017 12:25PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed. I just think a lot of people want to repeal with no limits and that doesn’t sit well with me.

The constitution is the wrong place to put limits.

Zubeneschamali · 17-12-2017 12:28PM

volchitsa wrote: »

I think most people who want the 8th repealed would be perfectly happy with a time limit for abortions for non medical reasons, choice/demand if you like (serious medical issues would be a different matter).

I think the proposal is for no limits for rape/incest and no requirement to report or prove rape, so no limits in practice.

The pro-lifers should be OK with that, they are OK with abortion on demand today with its little "as long as it actually doesn't happen on Holy Catholic Soil" condition. A "let on it was rape" clause should add the layer of hypocrisy they seem to favour.

Edward M · 17-12-2017 12:31PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The constitution is the wrong place to put limits.

But a committee system might not be agreeable to everyone either, who decides on when or what is,the right circumstances or time for an abortion?
If the repeal side go with a wording including a 12 week abortion on demand wording in it, I will be voting no.

Mr. CooL ICE · 17-12-2017 12:52PM

Edward M wrote: »

So is the manner some people act in a reason for voting against them?
Look, I'd say the pro side reps are totally over the top, unreasonable even, but like audreyhepburn, I'd have reservations on abortion on demand, no prob for genuine mental or physical illness issues with the mother's health!

You're completely missing the point of what I said. I think their behaviour is childish but it's not why anybody should vote either way.

They had a chance to represent their viewpoint but instead of staying in and taking part of a debate, they opted to leave and put on a performance.

If anybody wants 'both sides' to sit down and talk, then both sides need to sit down and talk and not leave in a huff.

Edward M · 17-12-2017 01:32PM

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

You're completely missing the point of what I said. I think their behaviour is childish but it's not why anybody should vote either way.

They had a chance to represent their viewpoint but instead of staying in and taking part of a debate, they opted to leave and put on a performance.

If anybody wants 'both sides' to sit down and talk, then both sides need to sit down and talk and not leave in a huff.

Fair enough, I'm in total agreement on that.

Odhinn · 17-12-2017 01:34PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m not taking that bait sorry.

There are people stomping their feet and acting like children on both sides of the debate and we all know it.

No one should feel like they can’t have an opinion or that that they are constantly being shouted down.

There's only one crowd doing that at the moment.

AudreyHepburn wrote:

Agreed. I just think a lot of people want to repeal with no limits and that doesn’t sit well with me.

There's no such thing as "repeal with no limits". Once the act is repealed, the dail has to legislate.

Shenshen · 17-12-2017 01:35PM

Edward M wrote: »

But a committee system might not be agreeable to everyone either, who decides on when or what is,the right circumstances or time for an abortion?
If the repeal side go with a wording including a 12 week abortion on demand wording in it, I will be voting no.

How else would you like to see it implemented? I hear a lot of the pro-life side saying they'd be happy to make exceptions for rape and incest - but accusations of rape or incest can take years before the courts actually reach a verdict on them. Unless you give victims the option to have the abortion before the circumstances have been legally clarified, you essentially do not give them the option at all.

thee glitz · 17-12-2017 01:44PM

volchitsa wrote: »

So where are you getting this claim that "a lot of people" want no limits from?

It's a red herring afaict.

Abortion Rights Campaign probably.

NuMarvel · 17-12-2017 02:34PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Agreed. I just think a lot of people want to repeal with no limits and that doesn’t sit well with me.

Maybe they do, but that won't be what will happen. If a repeal referendum is passed, the most the Oireachtas will do is legislate as per the Committee's recommendations, which are:

1) As a matter of choice in the first 12 weeks
2) In specified circumstances after that (eg risk to health, risk to life, ffa).

Ireland is not going to go from having one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the world to having none in one fell swoop. The most that's going to happen is we'll have laws similar to most other EU countries, eg Portugal, Spain, France.

captbarnacles · 17-12-2017 02:38PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

For the record I am pro choice. I don’t believe I have the right to dictate what another woman chooses to do with her body.

That being said I think a complete repeal of the 8th is unreasonable. I don’t want to end up in a situation where you can simply walk in off the street, demand an abortion and be given one then and there. There has to be proper legislation and guidelines in place.

Abortion is not just another form of contraception and I admit that I worry that is how many of the more militant pro choicers see it.

I also do not like the idea that many pro lifers are afraid to speak their opinions out loud. You are completely entitled to your beliefs and should not feel you have to hide them.

I think we need a middle ground in this debate, not an all out ban on abortion but not all out repeal either. Both sides need to be heard.

Who are these people who will use abortion as contraception? Do they exist?

The MAP is not something you'd want to experience regularly so I'd guess abortion pills are even more severe. Hard to believe women are going to choose that over regular contraception.

Most likely they and late term abortions are a pro life fantasy.

end of the road · 17-12-2017 02:55PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's why we have to repeal the 8th and pass some legislation.

With the 8th in place, we are stuck with something like our current regime - 14 years in jail for anyone caught taking abortion pills bought off the internet.

anyone importing drugs illegally will serve a long sentence. as much as i am for legalisation of all drugs, being sentenced to a long sentence for importing abortion pills illegally is no different to importing any other drug as far as the law is concerned and nor should it be.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The constitution is the wrong place to put limits.

it really is though. it's an insurence that the limits cannot be gone over without consent of society as a whole.

markodaly · 17-12-2017 02:59PM

If the 8th is repealed is should be replaced with something else to protect the life of the unborn, you can call it the 8th-lite.

Odhinn · 17-12-2017 03:12PM

markodaly wrote: »

If the 8th is repealed is should be replaced with something else to protect the life of the unborn, you can call it the 8th-lite.

That puts us back to square one.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-12-2017 03:27PM

markodaly wrote: »

If the 8th is repealed is should be replaced with something else to protect the life of the unborn, you can call it the 8th-lite.

No thanks and public opinion does not support this.

Zerbini Blewitt · 17-12-2017 03:41PM

Some anti-choice posters here still seem to be at the comfortable, theoretical, armchair exercise stage when it comes to the issues of proving rape and the reality of ever growing usage of abortion pills.

Undecided, middle ground voters will have to decide between now and the likely referendum if they agree with the experts involved (eg. those at the CA & Dail committee)

1) that there is no real-world or satisfactory way to go about proving a victim was raped and

2) if it is sensible to continue to criminilise those who take abortion pills with the threat of 14 years in prison – along with the head-in-the-sand, potentially unsafe healthcare abdication consequences.

nice_guy80 · 17-12-2017 03:47PM

markodaly wrote: »

Been thinking of this more and to be honest I am going to be voting no if the proposal in its current form goes before us, unless there are constitutional safegards put in place to protect the life of the unborn. Also, its too wide as someone can get an abortion for any reason.

so basically you want the current situation, which is a mess

nice_guy80 · 17-12-2017 03:47PM

markodaly wrote: »

Been thinking of this more and to be honest I am going to be voting no if the proposal in its current form goes before us, unless there are constitutional safegards put in place to protect the life of the unborn. Also, its too wide as someone can get an abortion for any reason.

so basically you want the current situation, which is a mess

end of the road · 17-12-2017 03:58PM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so basically you want the current situation, which is a mess

we just don't want abortion on demand. if there was a guarantee that wouldn't happen then more would vote for repeal.

NuMarvel · 17-12-2017 04:46PM

end of the road wrote: »

we just don't want abortion on demand. if there was a guarantee that wouldn't happen then more would vote for repeal.

Ireland had an absolute ban on abortion for 120 years before the 8th was passed. Whatever your stance on abortion is, there's no logical or rational reason for wanting to put it in the constitution.

AudreyHepburn · 17-12-2017 05:21PM

volchitsa wrote: »

What exactly do you mean by "no limits"?
I think most people who want the 8th repealed would be perfectly happy with a time limit for abortions for non medical reasons, choice/demand if you like (serious medical issues would be a different matter). Possibly even a limit that is a good deal shorter than the UK 24-week one. I know I would. And I'm not aware of anyone who actively wants abortions to be able to take place at any time up to birth.

So where are you getting this claim that "a lot of people" want no limits from?

It's a red herring afaict.

I mean pretty much what you’ve just said - a limit on the time in which you can avail of an abortion would be where I’d start. Anything over 12 weeks wouldn’t sit right with me.

I’d also expect that there be a process to be followed to determine if abortion is really wanted or required in each situation - assessments of the mothers physical and mental health, a proper discussion with her about her options, making sure the father is listened to etc.

I don’t think I’m being unreasonable tbh. I just don’t want a situation where you can just demand and be given an abortion just like that.

AudreyHepburn · 17-12-2017 05:23PM

Crea wrote: »

You do know that if the 8th was repealed tomorrow abortion would still be illegal because of our legislation. The law would need to change to allow for abortion on demand. Do you honestly believe our politicians are prepared to do that?

To be fair no I don’t. I think it’s what many on the pro choice want though and I foresee a lot of trouble if they don’t get it.

AudreyHepburn · 17-12-2017 05:27PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

So, you're not in favor of what the Oireachtas recommended for the referendum? Abortion on demand until 12 weeks and then for any health issues with the mother (fatal abnormality, risk to the mothers life and adverse mental health affects, most specifically suicidal tendencies)

I couldn’t in good conscience say I agree with abortion on demand at any stage unless there is an actual threat to the mother’s life or the baby would suffer if carried to term.

But as I said I will vote in favor of whatever legislation the government brings in because I am even less comfortable with telling my fellow women what they can or can’t do with their own bodies.

AudreyHepburn · 17-12-2017 05:29PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The constitution is the wrong place to put limits.

So where do we put limits if not in law?

Crea · 17-12-2017 05:36PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

To be fair no I don’t. I think it’s what many on the pro choice want though and I foresee a lot of trouble if they don’t get it.

Many people on the pro repeal side are advocaying for legislation as per the citizens assembly which is abortion on demand eith time limits.

Crea · 17-12-2017 05:37PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

So where do we put limits if not in law?

You can legislate outside of the constitution. Most of our laws are not in the constitution.

end of the road · 17-12-2017 05:54PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Ireland had an absolute ban on abortion for 120 years before the 8th was passed. Whatever your stance on abortion is, there's no logical or rational reason for wanting to put it in the constitution.

there absolutely is . having it in the constitution means special protection for the unborn. society and the state recognises the right to life of the unborn, and that cannot be changed via any means other then referendum.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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