Should unkel sell his Ioniq?

Evd-Burner · 14-12-2017 10:01PM

unkel wrote:

Half the countries population lives in the greater Dublin area and anytime any one of them needs to make a trip beyond the range of the car, every single one of them will go on the motorway. Except of course L drivers (joke)

KCross wrote:

Realistically you'd need to add another 3kWh's or so at your half way point which will take an extra 8mins @22kW rate so now your 13mins is 21mins!

My mum's Ioniq was charging at more than double that rate right up to 90% when before it majorly tapered off. So more like 4 to 5 mins.

KCross · 14-12-2017 10:09PM

Evd-Burner wrote: »

My mum's Ioniq was charging at more than double that rate right up to 90% when before it majorly tapered off. So more like 4 to 5 mins.

Nylands video clearly showed it tapering aggressively after 80% but fair enough, probably depends on battery temp.... its still 5 mins on top of the 13mins....

So, we went from the initial figure of 39mins v 19mins. Then we went to 26mins v 13mins and now we are at 26mins v18mins.

So, on a 250km, 2hr trip the Ioniq has beaten the Leaf by a whopping 8mins!!!!!!

And thats using some very questionable efficiency figures for the Leaf and also not allowing for the reasonable possibility that the Leaf might actually charge at 50kW vs 45kW.

I stick to my point.... the advantage is slight. You are all focussed on the headline max charge rate and not putting it together with the reduced battery size and tapering that the Ioniq has.

unkel · 14-12-2017 10:17PM

KCross wrote: »

So, we went from the initial figure of 39mins v 19mins. Then we went to 26mins v 13mins and now we are at 26mins v18mins.

No we're not. The point I made was that for motorway driving, Ioniq charges twice as fast. It does in practice. That was the point I made and that I supported with pretty realistic and reasonable figures and assumptions. You're clutching at straws trying to show I was "not even close, not a chance" because you know I was close

A 28kWh Ioniq will win the race to Cork from a 40kWh new Leaf. And it does so with just a 13 minute stop. Still a stop, but not a very long one. Hopefully in another year or two, a cheap econobox EV like Leaf or Ioniq can do it without stopping

KCross · 14-12-2017 10:48PM

unkel wrote: »

No we're not. The point I made was that for motorway driving, Ioniq charges twice as fast. It does in practice. That was the point I made and that I supported with pretty realistic and reasonable figures and assumptions. You're clutching at straws trying to show I was "not even close, not a chance" because you know I was close

You're not close though. You are talking about the headline figure. You are not talking about a real world journey where you would consider a 2hr journey and arriving with 1kWh to spare.... thats just nonsense. You wouldn't do that willingly unless you are willing to risk a flatbed.

The reality is you would have to charge longer in the Ioniq. You need to see passed the headline figure and apply it to a real world scenario.

unkel wrote: »

A 28kWh Ioniq will win the race to Cork from a 40kWh new Leaf. And it does so with just a 13 minute stop. Still a stop, but not a very long one. Hopefully in another year or two, a cheap econobox EV like Leaf or Ioniq can do it without stopping

Yes, and tbf, its a significant achievement that a 28kWh Ioniq can theoretically do that vs a 40kWh Leaf. I haven't questioned or argued that point, except the BS figures you posted... I'm in agreement with the overall figures but its not the "twice as fast" as your saying. Its 8mins (at best) on a 2hr journey. Hardly mind blowingly faster is it?

And its just one scenario (250km @120kmh) which is not a typical everyday drive and as you have already agreed the Leaf is potentially, maybe even probably, better than the Ioniq for those... so again, its not uncompetitive.

So lets get back to the reason this debate started.... the statement made was that the new Leaf is not competitive because of 45kW Chademo charging. Clearly, even using your figures, thats not true.

Evd-Burner · 14-12-2017 11:31PM

KCross wrote: »

So lets get back to the reason this debate started.... the statement made was that the new Leaf is not competitive because of 45kW Chademo charging. Clearly, even using your figures, thats not true.

To be honest I do see it as a competitor but I still think the 45kw charging is pathetic, it should be closer to 100kw and taper down as the battery charges. Not making any improvement on charging speed in 6 years is just nuts and Nissan should have and easily could have done better!

KCross · 14-12-2017 11:39PM

Evd-Burner wrote: »

To be honest I do see it as a competitor but I still think the 45kw charging is pathetic, it should be closer to 100kw and taper down as the battery charges. Not making any improvement on charging speed in 6 years is just nuts and Nissan should have and easily could have done better!

Agreed.

I'm sure they will support higher rates. Surely in the longer range Leaf which they said will be announced next year for 2019.

It boils down to this..., some journeys will be quicker in an Ioniq if you pick the right scenario. Other journeys will be quicker in a Leaf. So it depends and is not as simple as 45 vs 70. That's all I was trying to get across.... badly maybe!

unkel · 14-12-2017 11:56PM

KCross wrote: »

the statement made was that the new Leaf is not competitive because of 45kW Chademo charging

Surely I never made any statement like that?

Of course the new Leaf is competitive. By all means it looks like a very good car. And it has a lot to say for itself. It will do a brilliant job as the only car for a one car family for the vast majority of people (if only they realised it). If Ioniq never existed or was impossible to get, I'd possibly buy a new Leaf myself.

What is a bit disappointing is that a 2018 Leaf is nowhere near as efficient as a 2016 Ioniq and can charge nowhere near as quickly.

15-12-2017 12:10AM

unkel wrote: »

Surely I never made any statement like that?

Of course the new Leaf is competitive. By all means it looks like a very good car. And it has a lot to say for itself. It will do a brilliant job as the only car for a one car family for the vast majority of people (if only they realised it). If Ioniq never existed or was impossible to get, I'd possibly buy a new Leaf myself.

What is a bit disappointing is that a 2018 Leaf is nowhere near as efficient as a 2016 Ioniq and can charge nowhere near as quickly.

"nowhere near" that's like when you tried to claim the Ioniq was "much faster" than a leaf........:rolleyes:

15-12-2017 12:11AM

Lads when ye are quoting figures for a leaf charging etc will you quote whether it's a 24 or 30 Kwh battery ? because for anyone reading that does not know , there is a significant difference in charge times, 24 Kwh is a lot slower.

15-12-2017 12:12AM

I did not find a big difference really charging a i3 or ioniq what was there in it, 5 odd mins for 23 Kwh ?

unkel · 15-12-2017 12:58AM

Deleted User wrote: »

"nowhere near" that's like when you tried to claim the Ioniq was "much faster" than a leaf........:rolleyes:

Ioniq is much faster than old Leaf. In acceleration and in top speed. It also charges much quicker than old or new Leaf. It is also more efficient than old or new Leaf. If you publicly argue with facts like these, it won't do much for your general credibility I'm afraid.

KCross · 15-12-2017 10:12AM

unkel wrote: »

Surely I never made any statement like that?

Not you, no, but thats what the debate was about.

unkel wrote: »

What is a bit disappointing is that a 2018 Leaf is nowhere near as efficient as a 2016 Ioniq and can charge nowhere near as quickly.

I agree on the efficiency and I agree that its disappointing it doesn't have faster charging but I don't agree on the "nowhere near" element. I won't drag up all the previous points again.

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq is much faster than old Leaf. In acceleration and in top speed. It also charges much quicker than old or new Leaf. It is also more efficient than old or new Leaf. If you publicly argue with facts like these, it won't do much for your general credibility I'm afraid.

For speed... what is it 150 vs 165? Thats not much of a difference and irrelevant to almost everyone who buys a family hatch.

Just for context, on the current chargers we have in this country, it does charge much quicker than the 24kWh Leaf but not the 30kWh Leaf. Its quicker but not much quicker but methinks you have a different definition of "much" to me based on the last few posts anyway!

For the new Leaf, if we had a bunch of 70kW chargers then we would be looking at roughly 63kW vs 50kW for a 10-80%... is that "much quicker"? Thats not "much quicker" in my eyes but I think we need to move on from that debate.

unkel · 15-12-2017 10:22AM

KCross wrote: »

For speed... what is it 150 vs 165?

144 vs 167

Relevant to me - obviously only when I drive on my private roads

KCross · 15-12-2017 10:37AM

unkel wrote: »

144 vs 167

Relevant to me - obviously only when I drive on my private roads

No, the Leaf is 150 (GPS speed). I know from my private roads!

15-12-2017 11:31AM

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq is much faster than old Leaf. In acceleration and in top speed. It also charges much quicker than old or new Leaf. It is also more efficient than old or new Leaf. If you publicly argue with facts like these, it won't do much for your general credibility I'm afraid.

Unkel, Ioniq is not notably faster in acceleration to the leaf even Cros dismissed this.

The acceleration in 2011 V 2014 Leaf was pretty close because the reduced weight at the same time. You're not doing your own credibility any favours mate !

Regarding charge times the Ioniq wins hands down.

unkel · 15-12-2017 11:45AM

Ioniq does 0-60mph in just over 8s - I've posted the links before. That feels about right to me too. I've another car that does 0-60 in about 6s which is notably faster again

Although I'm the first to admit that if the grip is compromised (which it often is) then you won't get anywhere near this.

Don't take my word for it, but do you really want me to dig up those links again?

n97 mini · 15-12-2017 01:56PM

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq is much faster than old Leaf. In acceleration and in top speed. It also charges much quicker than old or new Leaf. It is also more efficient than old or new Leaf. If you publicly argue with facts like these, it won't do much for your general credibility I'm afraid.

You and I will have a race, you in your Ioniq and me in the Leaf. First to make it to Sligo and back wins.

unkel · 15-12-2017 02:27PM

You win

North west is a terrible spot for CCS. The only charger is Laghey and that one seems to be down quite a lot

thierry14 · 15-12-2017 02:45PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unkel, Ioniq is not notably faster in acceleration to the leaf even Cros dismissed this.

The acceleration in 2011 V 2014 Leaf was pretty close because the reduced weight at the same time. You're not doing your own credibility any favours mate !

Regarding charge times the Ioniq wins hands down.

I didnt believe it either

Math doesnt work

118bhp 1500kg car shouldn't be able to do 0-60 in 8's, heavy and slow it should be

Using the commonly used formula for ICE of kg/bhp for 0-60 it should be 12's, EV's break all the rules as we know

Your average 150bhp tdi hatchback @ 1350kg and 150bhp is 1350/150 = 9 secs ( 0-60)

http://www.motortrend.com/news/hyundai-ioniq-2018-car-of-the-year-contender/

Motortrend confirm a 8.8sec 0-60 for Ioniq, should feel noticeably quicker than Leaf

Loads of videos on YouTube of guys getting those times too

unkel · 15-12-2017 02:54PM

8.1s 0-60mph

Linky

It's difficult for me to understand how people who have driven both didn't notice. Fair enough if you compare the official stats for both cars and haven't driven both.

I guess with EVs it not so simple with power to weight etc. like it is with ICE cars. All depends on how the system is setup. But I do agree, it defies logic that a heavy car with just 118BHP can accelerate that quickly. Particularly off the mark. I'm going to have to do quite some research in getting tyres with the most possible grip should I decide to keep the car (quite likely)

n97 mini · 15-12-2017 03:03PM

The software on the Leaf limits power to the motor initially, up until about 30km/h (at a guess). It's noticeable.

The 2018 Leaf has the exact same motor and drivetrain. The only changes are software.

unkel · 15-12-2017 03:05PM

Yes it must be the software. Ioniq does have a very good initial acceleration but it drops off considerably once you go over 80km/h or so. And there is nothing much there in terms of acceleration over 140km/h. Takes ages to reach 167km/h (indicated 172km/h)

KCross · 15-12-2017 03:07PM

thierry14 wrote: »

Motortrend confirm a 8.8sec 0-60 for Ioniq, should feel noticeably quicker than Leaf

Depending on what site you look at the times from 0-60mph seem to be around 8.5-9.0 vs 9.8-10 in favour of the Ioniq.

How many people would really notice the difference of ~1 sec?

unkel · 15-12-2017 11:29PM

KCross wrote: »

How many people would really notice the difference of ~1 sec?

:eek:

Leaf 10s

Ioniq 8s

Next very noticeable step faster is my Porsche 6s.

Next step after that is supercar territory like Tesla Model S 90D or BMW M5 5.0 V10 in 4s (I drove both of these - pretty awesome)

And final step is hypercars like the fastest car ever, the Porsche 918 or the latest Tesla Model S P100D ludicrous in 2s (never drove anything like this, but it's on my reasonably small and modest bucket list

I guess most EV drivers can't exactly be described as petrol heads and some of them don't even notice the difference, but I am and I do

KCross · 15-12-2017 11:29PM

As I said it depends on what site you read. I've seen figures of 8.8 for the Ioniq and 9.8 for Leaf so that's a 1 sec difference.

I don't think most would notice 1sec

2secs, yes.

The fact that people on here disagree about how much faster the Ioniq is relative to the Leaf kinda proves my point.

unkel · 15-12-2017 11:36PM

All the figures in my post are from the same, independent site (zeroto60times.com). It's the best and most trusted comparison that we've got. I have driven all the cars (apart from the hypercars) and to me they feel pretty much exactly as quick and slow compared to each other as above figures would suggest. I'd say they are spot on.

10s - 8s - 6s - 4s - 2s

KCross · 15-12-2017 11:38PM

unkel wrote: »

I have driven all the cars (apart from the hypercars) and to me they feel pretty much exactly as quick and slow compared to each other as above figures would suggest. I'd say they are spot on.

Sure that's that settled so!

unkel · 16-12-2017 12:33AM

I guess it is. I made comments based on my driving experience in this and other threads in the past, which you disputed. I backed my comments up with figures from a single independent comparison site, and you seem to dispute these figures too. I guess there isn't much more to say about this.

unkel · 16-12-2017 12:46AM

I did up a wee signature. Might convince some ICE owners to consider EV

KCross · 16-12-2017 01:01AM

unkel wrote: »

I guess it is. I made comments based on my driving experience in this and other threads in the past, which you disputed.

Not sure what you are referring to on other threads but this is a discussion forum for debating/disputing things. Can I not dispute what you post even if you have experience in something? I drive too btw?!

unkel wrote: »

I backed my comments up with figures from a single independent comparison site, and you seem to dispute these figures too. I guess there isn't much more to say about this.

The point I made is that there are different figures depending on the site you visit. Nissan have also made changes to the take off of the Leaf as some people were complaining of wheel spin so you will get different figures depending on the year of Leaf you test drive.

http://autotk.com/0-60-times/nissan/leaf/

Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

Im not saying your source is any more or less reliable just that other experienced people on here have also driven both cars and disagree with you, so its fair to challenge you I think.

Should unkel sell his Ioniq?

Comments