Why do people Virtue Signal?

lufties · 08-12-2017 9:29pm #1

Especially on social media. I'm a fairly conservative person. I never feel ashamed for my views, at the end of the day we are humans with good and bad in us. Of course there are moral limits for the bad. Anyway, I find that on Facebook people like to be moral police and there is sort of an unspoken rule that going against popular opinion is bad. I just wondered why folk feel the need to demonstrate how virtuous they are. Its sort of pathetic.

Crann na Beatha · 11-12-2017 12:38am

This post has been deleted.

JuliusCaesar · 14-12-2017 4:31pm

"Virtue signalling" is a pejorative cliche that is used to denigrate people, like using the phrase "politically correct" or 'Nanny state" etc.

What does the phrase actually mean? It is used to mean people who are aware of social injustices, and seek to correct them. People who are concerned with fairness.

There you go! If you are politically conservative, it means that you aren't against social injustice, and that you believe that the wealthy should be rewarded and the poor penalised. Is that what YOU want?

The Specialist · 14-12-2017 4:36pm

It's a patethic back slapping state of mind - if you follow the herd and their accepted view then people will like or possibly even praise you for joining the herd opinion. Independent thinking is lost on these people - they see a bandwagon and jump on it when deep down they may not really believe the same.

People are entitled to their own opinions on anything, not matter how unsavory or "wrong" someone else believes them to be. For virtue signallers, the topic that is "flavor" of the moment generally sees them agree with whatever side they see as being the most accepted/"right".

lufties · 14-12-2017 8:26pm

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

"Virtue signalling" is a pejorative cliche that is used to denigrate people, like using the phrase "politically correct" or 'Nanny state" etc.

What does the phrase actually mean? It is used to mean people who are aware of social injustices, and seek to correct them. People who are concerned with fairness.

There you go! If you are politically conservative, it means that you aren't against social injustice, and that you believe that the wealthy should be rewarded and the poor penalised. Is that what YOU want?

Well spot the SJW lol. I was a 'Lefty' until I was 34, then I got some sense and realised that we live in a meritocracy, and began to embrace traditional values such there are only 2 genders, nationalism, and how the powers that be have being beating men over the head with feminism for years to weaken the men in society.
I discovered this through life experience and reading books. Most Irish people are now left leaning, and those who aren't are afraid they are anything else. I'm gone from Ireland nearly 9 years now and have experienced living in several different countries which I am grateful for.
Anyhow, a friend of mine likes to virtue signal a lot online for social brownie points, he also thinks that it will get him female intimacy. There is a case that beta men become feminists and SJWs because this is the only way they can attract women.
Now, there is no need to bite my head off for holding these views. I didn't get personal with you for holding yours (which I don't agree with).

lufties · 14-12-2017 8:30pm

The Specialist wrote: »

It's a patethic back slapping state of mind - if you follow the herd and their accepted view then people will like or possibly even praise you for joining the herd opinion. Independent thinking is lost on these people - they see a bandwagon and jump on it when deep down they may not really believe the same.

People are entitled to their own opinions on anything, not matter how unsavory or "wrong" someone else believes them to be. For virtue signallers, the topic that is "flavor" of the moment generally sees them agree with whatever side they see as being the most accepted/"right".

You know what, you are 100% correct. Sometimes I feel so lonely because I can't believe how stupid people behave nowadays. Even things like diet, most people just eat junk IMO. Personally I quit drinking earlier this year. I eat well generally with plenty of fruit and veg.

lufties · 14-12-2017 8:30pm

The Specialist wrote: »

It's a patethic back slapping state of mind - if you follow the herd and their accepted view then people will like or possibly even praise you for joining the herd opinion. Independent thinking is lost on these people - they see a bandwagon and jump on it when deep down they may not really believe the same.

People are entitled to their own opinions on anything, not matter how unsavory or "wrong" someone else believes them to be. For virtue signallers, the topic that is "flavor" of the moment generally sees them agree with whatever side they see as being the most accepted/"right".

You know what, you are 100% correct. Sometimes I feel so lonely because I can't believe how stupid people behave nowadays. Even things like diet, most people just eat junk IMO. Personally I quit drinking earlier this year. I eat well generally with plenty of fruit and veg.

super_furry · 14-12-2017 8:31pm

Why people think that someone caring and displaying empathy about a situation is 'virtue signalling' and why do they feel the need to attack and denigrate these people?

alchemist33 · 14-12-2017 8:34pm

People who agree with the majority view are just as entitled to their views as those in the minority, and their views may be just as sincerely held. Using the term Virtue Signalling is very similar to the overused "faux outrage", an attempt to dismiss someone's views as being insincere.

lufties · 14-12-2017 8:39pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

People who agree with the majority view are just as entitled to their views as those in the minority, and their views may be just as sincerely held. Using the term Virtue Signalling is very similar to the overused "faux outrage", an attempt to dismiss someone's views as being insincere.

Not insincere, its just presenting a debate. Look at Billionaire JK Rowling bleating about refugees, but taking none in herself into her multi roomed mansion. Look at meryl streep bleating about weinstein, but simultaneously supporting roman polanski. I have a relative who constantly bleats on social media about a particular issue but simultaneously ignores members of his own family when they are in need. See what I'm getting at?

lufties · 14-12-2017 8:55pm

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

"Virtue signalling" is a pejorative cliche that is used to denigrate people, like using the phrase "politically correct" or 'Nanny state" etc.

What does the phrase actually mean? It is used to mean people who are aware of social injustices, and seek to correct them. People who are concerned with fairness.

There you go! If you are politically conservative, it means that you aren't against social injustice, and that you believe that the wealthy should be rewarded and the poor penalised. Is that what YOU want?

Also, I'm not rich. But I've worked damn hard to get where I am, coming from a poor family and working for a euro an hour as a teenager. I'm not gonna let some jumped up idiot college student with no life experience, moralise or tell me what I can or cannot do, or how I should be living.
We live in a meritocracy, ok in Ireland its more different due to an embedded culture of 'who you know'. There is always gonna be an element of that as we are humans after all. However if I can be reasonably successful coming from nothing, then anyone can.

eviltwin · 14-12-2017 9:07pm

lufties wrote: »

Also, I'm not rich. But I've worked damn hard to get where I am, coming from a poor family and working for a euro an hour as a teenager. I'm not gonna let some jumped up idiot college student with no life experience, moralise or tell me what I can or cannot do, or how I should be living.
We live in a meritocracy, ok in Ireland its more different due to an embedded culture of 'who you know'. There is always gonna be an element of that as we are humans after all. However if I can be reasonably successful coming from nothing, then anyone can.

I'd be similar to you in that I came from a difficult background as a homeless teenager with a baby and I'm now doing well for myself. I worked hard for everything I've achieved, I've made a lot of sacrifices but I was also very lucky to be able to benefit from state supports and I had some good people around to help me out. Not everyone has that so you can't expect more disadvantaged than you to achieve the same outcomes. If only one of the links in my chain hadn't been there I wouldn't be where I am now. No one does it alone.

lufties · 14-12-2017 9:27pm

eviltwin wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

Also, I'm not rich. But I've worked damn hard to get where I am, coming from a poor family and working for a euro an hour as a teenager. I'm not gonna let some jumped up idiot college student with no life experience, moralise or tell me what I can or cannot do, or how I should be living.
We live in a meritocracy, ok in Ireland its more different due to an embedded culture of 'who you know'. There is always gonna be an element of that as we are humans after all. However if I can be reasonably successful coming from nothing, then anyone can.

I'd be similar to you in that I came from a difficult background as a homeless teenager with a baby and I'm now doing well for myself. I worked hard for everything I've achieved, I've made a lot of sacrifices but I was also very lucky to be able to benefit from state supports and I had some good people around to help me out. Not everyone has that so you can't expect more disadvantaged than you to achieve the same outcomes. If only one of the links in my chain hadn't been there I wouldn't be where I am now. No one does it alone.

Yeah I hear you. Personally, i never had state support for anything whatsoever, bar the nhs in the UK. I left Ireland for Australia taking a debt of 6k with me in 2009. I worked to pay all that back, and funded travelling the world along with a university degree. Yes, some people are disadvantaged of course, but where is the line. People need to be accountable for their actions, I know we all make mistakes, but we pay for them too in many ways.

Professor Moriarty · 14-12-2017 9:28pm

Would there be any examples of virtue signalling on this thread?

eviltwin · 14-12-2017 9:35pm

lufties wrote: »

Yeah I hear you. Personally, i never had state support for anything whatsoever, bar the nhs in the UK. I left Ireland for Australia taking a debt of 6k with me in 2009. I worked to pay all that back, and funded travelling the world along with a university degree. Yes, some people are disadvantaged of course, but where is the line. People need to be accountable for their actions, I know we all make mistakes, but we pay for them too in many ways.

Yeah people do need to be held accountable but you also have to look at the long term picture. The money the state gave me to fund my education has been paid back through my taxes in multiple amounts. It was a good investment. It would have taken me years to raise that money myself. I'm a big believer in the power of education to get people out of welfare and so I will always support my taxes going towards education supports. People sometimes make bad choices, I don't believe in using that against them or denying them help because of it.

superglue · 15-12-2017 6:14am

lufties wrote: »

I'm not gonna let some jumped up idiot college student with no life experience, moralise or tell me what I can or cannot do, or how I should be living.

Who is the jumped up idiot college student? Is it someone in here, or is it students in general who push your buttons? Who is telling you how to live?

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 6:49am

Virtue signalling is not something only done by lefties; in fact the term was originally coined to describe ostentatious displays of piety, intended to impress those who admire religiosity. It that context it would be more associated with a generally socially conservative stance.

But it is, or at any rate has become, a pejorative term; we never use it with respect to our own behaviour. I express support for my principles and convictions in discussing public affairs; you follow the crowd; he or she engages in virtue signalling. The same behaviour is being described in each case.

The OP asks why people engage in virtue signalling. Once you understand what virtue-signalling is, the question answers itself. Virtue-signalling is the expression of some moral or ethical position in order to protect or enhance one's standing within a group. People engage in virtue signalling because they value and seek social status or approbation.

Is it pathetic? Possibly, but it's also very human. We're social animals and we attach great importance to what other people think of us. Is it something characteristic of lefties? Don't kid yourself.

Mellor · 15-12-2017 7:04am

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

What does the phrase actually mean? It is used to mean people who are aware of social injustices, and seek to correct them. People who are concerned with fairness.

That's not what it means.

super_furry wrote: »

Why people think that someone caring and displaying empathy about a situation is 'virtue signalling'

That's not what it means.

Virtue signalling is not caring and having empathy. It's acting in a way so as to appear like you have empathy, lots of empathy, the best empathy.
Very big difference. As for why people do it, I'd have though that was obvious.

JuliusCaesar · 15-12-2017 7:42am

Not to take on a mods role, but can I remind everyone that this is the Psychology forum, not the politics forum?

Because all I'm seeing here is opinion, not psychology - a lot of confirmation bias."If I can do it, anyone can." I think any of the counsellors and psychologists on the forum here can tell you that that isn't the truth. Fundamental Attribution Error, anyone?

lufties · 15-12-2017 8:25am

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Not to take on a mods role, but can I remind everyone that this is the Psychology forum, not the politics forum?

Because all I'm seeing here is opinion, not psychology - a lot of confirmation bias."If I can do it, anyone can." I think any of the counsellors and psychologists on the forum here can tell you that that isn't the truth. Fundamental Attribution Error, anyone?

If my argument is moot, I'll take the role of teachers pet to make up for my lack debating skills.

lufties · 15-12-2017 8:43am

Mellor wrote: »

That's not what it means.

That's not what it means.

Virtue signalling is not caring and having empathy. It's acting in a way so as to appear like you have empathy, lots of empathy, the best empathy.
Very big difference. As for why people do it, I'd have though that was obvious.

On fb, a cousin of mine filmed himself doing push ups every day for veterans. In all fairness how does that help veterans.

superglue · 15-12-2017 8:47am

I find the recent incidence of Irish people seemingly parroting phrases mostly used/abused in American political commentary quite interesting, for example, "liberal leftist", "SJW", "snowflake", "gay agenda", "feminazi", etc. It could be interesting to see if there are particular correlates with the usage of such phrases.

In relation to the OP, you clearly have your own idea of what "virtue signalling" is, but there are differing opinions here as to it's meaning, so I'm not sure you're going to going to find the answers you're looking for if everyone can't agree how virtue signalling might be measured.

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 8:58am

lufties wrote: »

On fb, a cousin of mine filmed himself doing push ups every day for veterans. In all fairness how does that help veterans.

It doesn't help verterans, but that doesn't mean it's an example of virtue-signalling.

It would be virtue-signalling if your cousin knew very well that it wouldn't help veterans, but thought that appearing to be concerned about veterans would somehow benefit him.

On the other hand, your cousin might have thought that doing lots of pushups on social media would attract attention to him, and he could then use his (relatively) enhanced profile to attract attention to a cause which he genuinely considers worthy and wishes to advance.

Either way, no offence to your cousin, but it's probably more an example of woolly thinking that of anything else. Most people would file "pushups for veterans" next to "aerobics for Jesus". The project was never going to enhance either your cousin's status or the cause of veterans' welfare. Might do wonders for his upper body strength, though.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:19am

Peregrinus wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

On fb, a cousin of mine filmed himself doing push ups every day for veterans. In all fairness how does that help veterans.

It doesn't help verterans, but that doesn't mean it's an example of virtue-signalling.

It would be virtue-signalling if your cousin knew very well that it wouldn't help veterans, but thought that appearing to be concerned about veterans would somehow benefit him.

On the other hand, your cousin might have thought that doing lots of pushups on social media would attract attention to him, and he could then use his (relatively) enhanced profile to attract attention to a cause which he genuinely considers worthy and wishes to advance.

Either way, no offence to your cousin, but it's probably more an example of woolly thinking that of anything else. Most people would file "pushups for veterans" next to "aerobics for Jesus". The project was never going to enhance either your cousin's status or the cause of veterans' welfare. Might do wonders for his upper body strength, though.

Definintely an effort in virtue signalling I'd argue. He's not stupid, and is a king of making himself look good on social meeja, and is what I would call a covert show off. The veteran thing being a prime example. Demonstrating virtue while showing off his muscles at the same time.
Its a lot to do with keeping up with the jones' too.

I think my main point is that I don't need to demonstrate to others how virtuous I am. I know I'm a good soul, and don't need others' reassurance. People who virtue signal are deeply insecure and weak IMO.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:20am

Peregrinus wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

On fb, a cousin of mine filmed himself doing push ups every day for veterans. In all fairness how does that help veterans.

It doesn't help verterans, but that doesn't mean it's an example of virtue-signalling.

It would be virtue-signalling if your cousin knew very well that it wouldn't help veterans, but thought that appearing to be concerned about veterans would somehow benefit him.

On the other hand, your cousin might have thought that doing lots of pushups on social media would attract attention to him, and he could then use his (relatively) enhanced profile to attract attention to a cause which he genuinely considers worthy and wishes to advance.

Either way, no offence to your cousin, but it's probably more an example of woolly thinking that of anything else. Most people would file "pushups for veterans" next to "aerobics for Jesus". The project was never going to enhance either your cousin's status or the cause of veterans' welfare. Might do wonders for his upper body strength, though.

Definintely an effort in virtue signalling I'd argue. He's not stupid, and is a king of making himself look good on social meeja, and is what I would call a covert show off. The veteran thing being a prime example. Demonstrating virtue while showing off his muscles at the same time.
Its a lot to do with keeping up with the jones' too.

I think my main point is that I don't need to demonstrate to others how virtuous I am. I know I'm a good soul, and don't need others' reassurance. People who virtue signal are deeply insecure and weak IMO.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:20am

Peregrinus wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

On fb, a cousin of mine filmed himself doing push ups every day for veterans. In all fairness how does that help veterans.

It doesn't help verterans, but that doesn't mean it's an example of virtue-signalling.

It would be virtue-signalling if your cousin knew very well that it wouldn't help veterans, but thought that appearing to be concerned about veterans would somehow benefit him.

On the other hand, your cousin might have thought that doing lots of pushups on social media would attract attention to him, and he could then use his (relatively) enhanced profile to attract attention to a cause which he genuinely considers worthy and wishes to advance.

Either way, no offence to your cousin, but it's probably more an example of woolly thinking that of anything else. Most people would file "pushups for veterans" next to "aerobics for Jesus". The project was never going to enhance either your cousin's status or the cause of veterans' welfare. Might do wonders for his upper body strength, though.

Definintely an effort in virtue signalling I'd argue. He's not stupid, and is a king of making himself look good on social meeja, and is what I would call a covert show off. The veteran thing being a prime example. Demonstrating virtue while showing off his muscles at the same time.
Its a lot to do with keeping up with the jones' too.

I think my main point is that I don't need to demonstrate to others how virtuous I am. I know I'm a good soul, and don't need others' reassurance. People who virtue signal are deeply insecure and weak IMO.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:25am

superglue wrote: »

I find the recent incidence of Irish people seemingly parroting phrases mostly used/abused in American political commentary quite interesting, for example, "liberal leftist", "SJW", "snowflake", "gay agenda", "feminazi", etc. It could be interesting to see if there are particular correlates with the usage of such phrases.

In relation to the OP, you clearly have your own idea of what "virtue signalling" is, but there are differing opinions here as to it's meaning, so I'm not sure you're going to going to find the answers you're looking for if everyone can't agree how virtue signalling might be measured.

Well I can tell right away that you are quite left leaning since you never mentioned the phrase 'alt right' or 'broflake'. Anyway, I don't live in Ireland, but you'd be naive to dismiss the impact 'The yanks' have had. As much as you dismiss these as 'Americanisms', they are relevant in Irish society, along with political correctness. I'm shocked at how liberal leaning Ireland has become, and I've only been away 9 years.

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 9:27am

lufties wrote: »

Definintely an effort in virtue signalling I'd argue. He's not stupid . . . .

No offence. If he genuinely thinks that people will admire him for doing "pushups for veterans", then he is a bit stupid.

What could be going on here, of course, is that the ". . . for veterans" bit is just an excuse for him to put his muscles on facebook. (He wouldn't be doing these pushups while shirtless, by any chance?)

And he may be perfectly aware that everybody will know this, and nobody will admire his moral character (in which case this is not really virtue-signalling). But he doesn't care, since it means they'll get a chance to admire his muscles, or at any rate he'll get a chance to display them, which is what he is really after here. The ". . . for veterans" bit is just a fig-leaf cover story which he will deploy to reject accusations of narcissism and vanity.

lufties wrote: »

I think my main point is that I don't need to demonstrate to others how virtuous I am. I know I'm a good soul, and don't need others' reassurance. People who virtue signal are deeply insecure and weak IMO.

Whereas people who open a thread in which they can tell everybody how they don't crave the affirmation and reassurance of others, so very unlike those insecure and weak people over there, are secure and strong?

NollagShona · 15-12-2017 9:31am

Virtue Signalling is the pejorative terms used by individualists when others dare to try to put the needs of the many ahead of the few.

There is nothing equal in this world

I’m white male living in the western world - I’m aware how things are stacked in my favour.

I’m Gay so that’s a minus. But I will fight for minority and women’s rights, because if you genuinely believe the world is equal, or somehow White Straight Men are now maligned, I’d advise take your head out of breitbart and look around you everyday.

The traveller family living in squalid conditions
The woman being beaten by her partner - afraid to tell anyone and now she has died from her injuries (in aware there is also FoM domestic violence- I see it in my work)
The young woman taking the lonely flight to London
The guy working minimum wage jobs to try to support his family - never being able make ends meet
The children with cancer and other terminal illnesses and their families- trying to cope with the huge struggle
The man so up to his eyes in debt and unable to talk about it due to toxic masculinity he takes his own life as he thinks society views him as one of life’s failures
The refugee family after escaping the horrors of Aleppo having to live in a new county- no idea of the language etc and being met with racism and bitterness

Call me a SJW all you want- it won’t deter me from trying any small way I can to try and redress the balance of the burden life placed on people

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:37am

Peregrinus wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

Definintely an effort in virtue signalling I'd argue. He's not stupid . . . .

No offence. If he genuinely thinks that people will admire him for doing "pushups for veterans", then he is a bit stupid.

What could be going on here, of course, is that the ". . . for veterans" bit is just an excuse for him to put his muscles on facebook. (He wouldn't be doing these pushups while shirtless, by any chance?)

And he may be perfectly aware that everybody will know this, and nobody will admire his moral character (in which case this is not really virtue-signalling). But he doesn't care, since it means they'll get a chance to admire his muscles, or at any rate he'll get a chance to display them, which is what he is really after here, while having a fig-leaf cover story which allows him to reject accusations of narcissism and vanity.

lufties wrote: »

I think my main point is that I don't need to demonstrate to others how virtuous I am. I know I'm a good soul, and don't need others' reassurance. People who virtue signal are deeply insecure and weak IMO.

Whereas people who open a thread in which they can tell everybody how they don't crave the affirmation and reassurance of others, so very unlike those insecure and weak people over there, are secure and strong?

I don't crave affirmation one bit. Its difficult to talk about psychology in normal day to day life. These days if you question anything deemed 'virtuous', you'll be labelled a naysayer or negative etc. I'm purely interested in getting to the psychology behind it. Simply because well, it bugs me that people go for cheap brownie points.
On your first point I agree, he did it topless in a desperate attempt to show off his muscles. If anyone says 'look at that muppet', he can say 'whattaya mean, I was doing it for the..em...veterans'

server down · 15-12-2017 9:43am

NollagShona wrote: »

Virtue Signalling is the pejorative terms used by individualists when others dare to try to put the needs of the many ahead of the few.

There is nothing equal in this world

I’m white male living in the western world - I’m aware how things are stacked in my favour.

I’m Gay so that’s a minus. But I will fight for minority and women’s rights, because if you genuinely believe the world is equal, or somehow White Straight Men are now maligned, I’d advise take your head out of breitbart and look around you everyday.

The traveller family living in squalid conditions
The woman being beaten by her partner - afraid to tell anyone and now she has died from her injuries (in aware there is also FoM domestic violence- I see it in my work)
The young woman taking the lonely flight to London
The guy working minimum wage jobs to try to support his family - never being able make ends meet
The children with cancer and other terminal illnesses and their families- trying to cope with the huge struggle
The man so up to his eyes in debt and unable to talk about it due to toxic masculinity he takes his own life as he thinks society views him as one of life’s failures
The refugee family after escaping the horrors of Aleppo having to live in a new county- no idea of the language etc and being met with racism and bitterness

Call me a SJW all you want- it won’t deter me from trying any small way I can to try and redress the balance of the burden life placed on people

The term white as you use it is directly borrowed from an Americanised ideology that has little to do with Ireland. What does “white” even mean. Travellers are white. Northern Irish catholics are white. Most immigrants to Ireland are white. Irish people are hardly any dominant group - our nearest neighbours can’t even find the border, most would have no idea of the shared history.

On the other hand all Americans, regardless of race, do belong to a dominant culture, economy and project a military hegemony.

The rest of the stuff you care about might be related to you being a “minority” but it’s not necessarily virtue signalling. Unless of course it is. This is generally dependent on the person.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:44am

NollagShona wrote: »

Virtue Signalling is the pejorative terms used by individualists when others dare to try to put the needs of the many ahead of the few.

There is nothing equal in this world

I’m white male living in the western world - I’m aware how things are stacked in my favour.

I’m Gay so that’s a minus. But I will fight for minority and women’s rights, because if you genuinely believe the world is equal, or somehow White Straight Men are now maligned, I’d advise take your head out of breitbart and look around you everyday.

The traveller family living in squalid conditions
The woman being beaten by her partner - afraid to tell anyone and now she has died from her injuries (in aware there is also FoM domestic violence- I see it in my work)
The young woman taking the lonely flight to London
The guy working minimum wage jobs to try to support his family - never being able make ends meet
The children with cancer and other terminal illnesses and their families- trying to cope with the huge struggle
The man so up to his eyes in debt and unable to talk about it due to toxic masculinity he takes his own life as he thinks society views him as one of life’s failures
The refugee family after escaping the horrors of Aleppo having to live in a new county- no idea of the language etc and being met with racism and bitterness

Call me a SJW all you want- it won’t deter me from trying any small way I can to try and redress the balance of the burden life placed on people

Toxic masculinity? wow...so what is toxic femininity?

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 9:47am

lufties wrote: »

I don't crave affirmation one bit.

Yet you have opened a thread to tell us this. Just sayin'.

lufties wrote: »

These days if you question anything deemed 'virtuous', you'll be labelled a naysayer or negative etc. I'm purely interested in getting to the psychology behind it. Simply because well, it bugs me that people go for cheap brownie points.

Why does it bug you? Does the fact that it bugs you point to any "insecurity and weakness" on your part?

As I said above, everybody craves the approbation of others - its a basic human need - and we do various things that can look vain or foolish to get it. Your cousin invites people to observe his exercise routine. Others attempt to demonstrate their moral character with conspicuous displays of empathy. You open threads in which you can assert your independence and self-realisation. I do stuff too, but I'm far too repressed to tell you what it is.

This is a commmon human foible, in other words. If a one manifestation of it particularly bugs you, the reason for that probably lies with you, rather than with the people doing the manifesting.

lufties wrote: »

In your first point I agree, he did it topless in a desperate attempt to show off his muscles. If anyone says 'look at that muppet', he can say 'whattaya mean, I was doing it for the..em...veterans'

But that's not virtue-signalling. It's narcissism plus, since your cousin is bright enough to know that he will be accused of narcissism, a degree of defensiveness against accusations of narcissism.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:49am

server down wrote: »

NollagShona wrote: »

Virtue Signalling is the pejorative terms used by individualists when others dare to try to put the needs of the many ahead of the few.

There is nothing equal in this world

I’m white male living in the western world - I’m aware how things are stacked in my favour.

I’m Gay so that’s a minus. But I will fight for minority and women’s rights, because if you genuinely believe the world is equal, or somehow White Straight Men are now maligned, I’d advise take your head out of breitbart and look around you everyday.

The traveller family living in squalid conditions
The woman being beaten by her partner - afraid to tell anyone and now she has died from her injuries (in aware there is also FoM domestic violence- I see it in my work)
The young woman taking the lonely flight to London
The guy working minimum wage jobs to try to support his family - never being able make ends meet
The children with cancer and other terminal illnesses and their families- trying to cope with the huge struggle
The man so up to his eyes in debt and unable to talk about it due to toxic masculinity he takes his own life as he thinks society views him as one of life’s failures
The refugee family after escaping the horrors of Aleppo having to live in a new county- no idea of the language etc and being met with racism and bitterness

Call me a SJW all you want- it won’t deter me from trying any small way I can to try and redress the balance of the burden life placed on people

The term white as you use it is directly borrowed from an Americanised ideology that has little to do with Ireland. What does “white” even mean. Travellers are white. Northern Irish catholics are white. Most immigrants to Ireland are white. Irish people are hardly any dominant group - our nearest neighbours can’t even find the border, most would have no idea of the shared history.

On the other hand all Americans, regardless of race, do belong to a dominant culture, economy and project a military hegemony.

The rest of the stuff you care about might be related to you being a “minority” but it’s not necessarily virtue signalling. Unless of course it is. This is generally dependent on the person.

As a straight white man who has travelled the world, I've experienced racism, bigotry (against christianity). The problem is people like this guy are brainwashed into victimhood by the mass media.

superglue · 15-12-2017 9:53am

lufties wrote: »

Well I can tell right away that you are quite left leaning since you never mentioned the phrase 'alt right' or 'broflake'. Anyway, I don't live in Ireland, but you'd be naive to dismiss the impact 'The yanks' have had. As much as you dismiss these as 'Americanisms', they are relevant in Irish society, along with political correctness. I'm shocked at how liberal leaning Ireland has become, and I've only been away 9 years.

I was using those phrases as an example. I refrained from referring to anything as being "alt-right" because I don't think those phrases are exclusively used by the so-called alt-right movement these days. I genuinely have never heard of the term "broflake". I was trying to think of other pejorative phrases that might be used against the "right", but none came to mind. That's not saying that there are no such phrases in use of course.

I'm not dismissing the effect America has had on our political commentary at all. Quite the opposite in fact: I genuinely find it interesting. I do, however, find it discouraging that we should feel the need to model how we discuss politics on American habits, considering that too often debate in America is so poisonous, divided, and childish currently.

JC is correct though, this is all related to politics and not psychology, so again, I'm not sure what answers you hope to get in a psychology forum.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:56am

Peregrinus wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

I don't crave affirmation one bit.

Yet you have opened a thread to tell us this. Just sayin'.

lufties wrote: »

These days if you question anything deemed 'virtuous', you'll be labelled a naysayer or negative etc. I'm purely interested in getting to the psychology behind it. Simply because well, it bugs me that people go for cheap brownie points.

Why does it bug you? Does the fact that it bugs you point to any "insecurity and weakness" on your part?

As I said above, everybody craves the approbation of others - its a basic human need - and we do various things that can look vain or foolish to get it. Your cousin invites people to observe his exercise routine. Others attempt to demonstrate their moral character with conspicuous displays of empathy. You open threads in which you can assert your independence and self-realisation. I do stuff too, but I'm far too repressed to tell you what it is.

This is a commmon human foible, in other words. If a one manifestation of it particularly bugs you, the reason for that probably lies with you, rather than with the people doing the manifesting.

lufties wrote: »

In your first point I agree, he did it topless in a desperate attempt to show off his muscles. If anyone says 'look at that muppet', he can say 'whattaya mean, I was doing it for the..em...veterans'

But that's not virtue-signalling. It's narcissism plus, since your cousin is bright enough to know that he will be accused of narcissism, a degree of defensiveness against accusations of narcissism.

Ah that old chestnut of, if it bothers you it must be a manifestation of your own insecurities. Well I have adressed that in a previous post, if you cared to read.
It bugs me because its a deceptive social interaction and cheap brownie points. If you were truly virtuous, you'd do it without broadcasting it over the internet.
Also, I started the thread beacuse its hard to talk about because you'll be met with a wall of silence. Did you read my previous post? Or maybe you are one of those fingers in ears 'lalalala' types? If your not gonna bother reading my posts, and trying to provoke with the same lines over again. Its prob better you don't reply at all.

lufties · 15-12-2017 9:58am

superglue wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

Well I can tell right away that you are quite left leaning since you never mentioned the phrase 'alt right' or 'broflake'. Anyway, I don't live in Ireland, but you'd be naive to dismiss the impact 'The yanks' have had. As much as you dismiss these as 'Americanisms', they are relevant in Irish society, along with political correctness. I'm shocked at how liberal leaning Ireland has become, and I've only been away 9 years.

I was using those phrases as an example. I refrained from referring to anything as being "alt-right" because I don't think those phrases are exclusively used by the so-called alt-right movement these days. I genuinely have never heard of the term "broflake". I was trying to think of other pejorative phrases that might be used against the "right", but none came to mind. That's not saying that there are no such phrases in use of course.

I'm not dismissing the effect America has had on our political commentary at all. Quite the opposite in fact: I genuinely find it interesting. I do, however, find it discouraging that we should feel the need to model how we discuss politics on American habits, considering that too often debate in America is so poisonous, divided, and childish currently.

JC is correct though, this is all related to politics and not psychology, so again, I'm not sure what answers you hope to get in a psychology forum.

Answers? This isn't ask jeeves. I'm looking for opinions.
By the way, I know its not politics, but a thread like this is bound to have an element of it.

Jerichoholic · 15-12-2017 10:02am

alchemist33 wrote: »

People who agree with the majority view are just as entitled to their views as those in the minority, and their views may be just as sincerely held. Using the term Virtue Signalling is very similar to the overused "faux outrage", an attempt to dismiss someone's views as being insincere.

Most people are insincere. Fishing for likes, for example putting a French flag on a facebook profile, it's just for the attention and a pat on the back. It helps absolutely nobody. A lot of people are that way unfortunately

RobbieTheRobber · 15-12-2017 10:03am

lufties wrote: »

Ah that old chestnut of, if it bothers you it must be a manifestation of your own insecurities. Well I have adressed that in a previous post, if you cared to read.
It bugs me because its a deceptive social interaction and cheap brownie points. If you were truly virtuous, you'd do it without broadcasting it over the internet.
Also, I started the thread beacuse its hard to talk about because you'll be met with a wall of silence. Did you read my previous post? Or maybe you are one of those fingers in ears 'lalalala' types? If your not gonna bother reading my posts, and trying to provoke with the same lines over again. Its prob better you don't reply at all.

Sorry I'm very confused at this point after reading your posts.
Do you want your cousin to do shirtless press ups for veterans in secret?

lufties · 15-12-2017 10:05am

Jerichoholic wrote: »

alchemist33 wrote: »

People who agree with the majority view are just as entitled to their views as those in the minority, and their views may be just as sincerely held. Using the term Virtue Signalling is very similar to the overused "faux outrage", an attempt to dismiss someone's views as being insincere.

Most people are insincere. Fishing for likes, for example putting a French flag on a facebook profile, it's just for the attention and a pat on the back. It helps absolutely nobody. A lot of people are that way unfortunately

Perhaps thats why I hate virtue signalling, because I'm gernerally a no nonsense person. However, after the paris attacks I did change to a french flag to follow the herd. I cringe about it now.

lufties · 15-12-2017 10:09am

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

Ah that old chestnut of, if it bothers you it must be a manifestation of your own insecurities. Well I have adressed that in a previous post, if you cared to read.
It bugs me because its a deceptive social interaction and cheap brownie points. If you were truly virtuous, you'd do it without broadcasting it over the internet.
Also, I started the thread beacuse its hard to talk about because you'll be met with a wall of silence. Did you read my previous post? Or maybe you are one of those fingers in ears 'lalalala' types? If your not gonna bother reading my posts, and trying to provoke with the same lines over again. Its prob better you don't reply at all.

Sorry I'm very confused at this point after reading your posts.
Do you want your cousin to do shirtless press ups for veterans in secret?

A canadian doing push ups shirtless online to raise awareness for american war vets. Perhaps if he just did the push ups with the virtue signalling bit, I'd have more respect. It basically translated to 'I wanna show off my muscles/fitness levels, and this seems like a worthy narrative to deliver it with'

lufties · 15-12-2017 10:10am

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

Ah that old chestnut of, if it bothers you it must be a manifestation of your own insecurities. Well I have adressed that in a previous post, if you cared to read.
It bugs me because its a deceptive social interaction and cheap brownie points. If you were truly virtuous, you'd do it without broadcasting it over the internet.
Also, I started the thread beacuse its hard to talk about because you'll be met with a wall of silence. Did you read my previous post? Or maybe you are one of those fingers in ears 'lalalala' types? If your not gonna bother reading my posts, and trying to provoke with the same lines over again. Its prob better you don't reply at all.

Sorry I'm very confused at this point after reading your posts.
Do you want your cousin to do shirtless press ups for veterans in secret?

A canadian doing push ups shirtless online to raise awareness for american war vets. Perhaps if he just did the push ups without the virtue signalling bit, I'd have more respect. It basically translated to 'I wanna show off my muscles/fitness levels, and this seems like a worthy narrative to deliver it with'

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 10:16am

lufties wrote: »

Ah that old chestnut of, if it bothers you it must be a manifestation of your own insecurities. Well I have adressed that in a previous post, if you cared to read.
It bugs me because its a deceptive social interaction and cheap brownie points. If you were truly virtuous, you'd do it without broadcasting it over the internet.
Also, I started the thread beacuse its hard to talk about because you'll be met with a wall of silence. Did you read my previous post? Or maybe you are one of those fingers in ears 'lalalala' types? If your not gonna bother reading my posts, and trying to provoke with the same lines over again. Its prob better you don't reply at all.

I am not that easily silenced, lufties!

Discussing the nature and function of virtue-signalling is fine. But right from the opening post you have been talking about yourself, in contrast to those who you perceive to be engaged in virtue-signalling, about whom you express negative judgments. ("I never feel ashamed for my views . . . people like to be moral police . . . Its sort of pathetic".) Intentionally or not, there's a clear contrast between the positive judgments you express about yourself, and the negative judgments you express about others, and this is sustained through your various posts. So, yeah, it does look a bit defensive.

You may not have intended it that way, but this doesn't read like something that's just intended as a discussion of the rationale and function of virtue-signalling. There is an "I thank the Lord that I am not as other men" air to your posts.

If that's not the vibe you're reaching for, probably best to stop talking about yourself, and just stick to talking about virtue-signalling. If you talk about yourself, people will respond about you; that's how discussion boards work.

And, talking of discussion boards, yeah, the internet will abound with both actual and apparent virtue-signalling. Actual because, if I want to say something that will sound good but cost me nothing in practical terms, a discussion board is the ideal place for it. And also apparent because, if I'm somebody who talks the talk but also walks the walk, on social media you're only going to see me talking the talk. My positions may look like virtue-signalling to you, but in fact that's because you're only getting half the picture; the other half might show that I am genuinely virtuous.

So, yeah, virtue-signalling is real but (a) there may be less of it about than is commonly supposed, and (b) it's just one particular manifestation of a wider reality, which is the human need for social approbation, and the things we do to secure it.

Jerichoholic · 15-12-2017 10:17am

Take a selfie and post it to end world hunger.

It's disgusting behaviour like that that pisses me off. The worst are the narcissists that film themselves giving a sandwich to the homeless and post it on facebook, complete with emotional music. People are so stupid these days, that they fall for absolutely anything.

CrankyHaus · 15-12-2017 10:20am

To answer the OPs question, people virtue signal because social media with it's "likes" and "thanks" creates an online economy of virtue.
The unit of exchange is the approval of others. Therefore participants in this economy of virtue work to earn the approval of others.

On more vitriolic platforms like Twitter participants regularly tear down one another with witch hunts over nebulous crimes like "otherism" and "privilege". This keeps virtue from being devalued by too many participants having a lot of it.

SterlingArcher · 15-12-2017 10:26am

lufties wrote: »

Perhaps thats why I hate virtue signalling, because I'm gernerally a no nonsense person. However, after the paris attacks I did change to a french flag to follow the herd. I cringe about it now.

French flag on profile. Can the mind vomit?

Awh dear god. Forget french flag You need some serious self flaggellation. Consider yourself pun-ished. Ugh loook what you done. Yes you.

Social media in itself is by majority disingenuous. The fake edited lives lived out on it. Then there is the latching onto the tragedy of the day and outpouring of outrage.

But in all honesty if people posted who they really were. You might be equally disgusted.

Dinner · 15-12-2017 10:42am

lufties wrote: »

You know what, you are 100% correct. Sometimes I feel so lonely because I can't believe how stupid people behave nowadays. Even things like diet, most people just eat junk IMO. Personally I quit drinking earlier this year. I eat well generally with plenty of fruit and veg.

Why did you say this? For no apparent reason what so ever, you bring up the fact that you don't drink, eat well and eat lots of fruit and veg?

Maybe people "virtue signal" on Facebook for the same reason you're virtue signaling here, to make sure a bunch of strangers on the internet know that you're a good person who eats his carrots.

superglue · 15-12-2017 10:45am

People in imparting enhanced version of self shocker

lufties · 15-12-2017 10:56am

Dinner wrote: »

lufties wrote: »

You know what, you are 100% correct. Sometimes I feel so lonely because I can't believe how stupid people behave nowadays. Even things like diet, most people just eat junk IMO. Personally I quit drinking earlier this year. I eat well generally with plenty of fruit and veg.

Why did you say this? For no apparent reason what so ever, you bring up the fact that you don't drink, eat well and eat lots of fruit and veg?

Maybe people "virtue signal" on Facebook for the same reason you're virtue signaling here, to make sure a bunch of strangers on the internet know that you're a good person who eats his carrots.

Nope the reason I said this is to demonstrate that I'm reasonable clever, but if I can live a healthy lifestyle anyone can. Our society nowadays promotes junk, for the body and mind. Having a good diet is nothing to do with virtue signalling. Honestly, I wish everyone ate healthily but we are brainwashed.
I met a french girl last night was telling about her time in london, and the only thing she remembered about her hotel was that there was a burger king nearby. I was more disappointed more than anything else.

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 11:03am

lufties wrote: »

Nope the reason I said this is to demonstrate that I'm reasonable clever, but if I can live a healthy lifestyle anyone can. Our society nowadays promotes junk, for the body and mind. Having a good diet is nothing to do with virtue signalling. Honestly, I wish everyone ate healthily but we are brainwashed.
I met a french girl last night was telling about her time in london, and the only thing she remembered about her hotel was that there was a burger king nearby. I was more disappointed more than anything else.

In fairness, it was a really dull hotel. The adjacent Burger King was actually the most exciting thing about it.

Dinner · 15-12-2017 11:09am

lufties wrote: »

Nope the reason I said this is to demonstrate that I'm reasonable clever, but if I can live a healthy lifestyle anyone can. Our society nowadays promotes junk, for the body and mind. Having a good diet is nothing to do with virtue signalling. Honestly, I wish everyone ate healthily but we are brainwashed.
I met a french girl last night was telling about her time in london, and the only thing she remembered about her hotel was that there was a burger king nearby. I was more disappointed more than anything else.

Here's the thing though, nobody here cares whether you eat healthy, nobody here cares if you're clever or not. You wrote that post to try and show us that you look after yourself, and that we'd think you're clever, or are a good person.

In the same way, the Canadian on Facebook doing push ups for veterans is doing it so that you'll know he's physically fit, and cares about things (even if it is completely pointless). It's two sides of the same coin, everybody posts these things because they think it matters what other people think. If you didn't think it mattered, you wouldn't bother telling us.

Maybe you wouldn't be so lonely sometimes if you didn't look down on everyone who likes to eat burger king every once in a while, or think that any behaviour that you don't do (or, don't think you do) is stupid...

Why do people Virtue Signal?

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